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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 23:53:32
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Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 23:57:23
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
This scroll has links to them.
Those links are all dead. |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 23:57:47
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Don't be embarrassed - I haven't read all the articles myself. 
And it was LK's project - I actually came aboard late into it, and mostly did the Dark Elven material. I also did some of the geographic research (& Evermeet map), and a teeny bit of Photoshopping other art (I did the page backgrounds).
Other then that, it was a community project, But it was LK's 'baby' (and dream to finish). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 23:52:52
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Point with this project is that it doesn't make any clear distinction between canon lore and fan-fic, hence I don't use it. Obviously, some folk who have pop up here and start talking "lore" which is not exactly canon by "our" standards and wonder why people have some sort of reluctance to accept their views. ... There's a reason why I asked LK back in the early days of that project to mark non-canon stuff, which he et al kindly declined. But he will find enough 4E-disciples* who won't/don't have access to (or are willing to read) older books and thus are somewhat cut-off from the knowledge of "our" generation.
*Just an observation, no disrespect whatsoever. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 05:21:21
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The dark elves to drow thing and how it panned out? It's Ghaunadaur's fault. Clearly.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 09:29:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
Oh. yeah, if it doesn't distinguish between canon and fanfic or cite its sources, then it wont be any good to me either...
I was under the impression is was a netbook based on canon sources.
=/ crap.
Most was based on canon sources, or was things from AD&D remade to fit 3ed. Life & Physiology section was based on Cormanthyr, AFAIR.
Sources are cited at the end of every volume published.
I don't recall seeing anything there that does qualify as fanfic. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2390 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2011 : 16:27:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
In the Lady Penitent trilogy it's explained that the dark elves were a subrace of green elves
The first reaction: Haha... what? The first reaction: so, that's how it's in 4 ed. now? 
But seriously, retconning away Ssri-Tel'Quessir? Flying eyebrows... 
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
explaining that the drow were condemned [...] I believe the actual physical change into drow is mentioned as being the result of high magic,
It used to be - before that, Dark Elves were like humans with dark skin, not obsidian-black, and had no unusual magic properties.
Also note how this removes both an example of elven drama queen style (which was an established problem) and the two-sided sore spot.
The original image:
Elves were in a precarious position, then noticed one of their allies is a big jerk. Instead of sorting the problems by importance, the rest throws a "Them all!!1" hissyfit. All dark elves were affected - guilty or not, Ilythiiri or an outlander with no idea of what's going on. The result: Vyshaan assassins take it as a clue to prevent the same befalling them, so the "good" elves need one more divine intervention to pull their butts out of fire.
Without "little details":
Mars needs our babes and eats babies! Elves are "a pretty cool guy and doesnt afraid of anything", you'd wonder how they ended up with Retreat at all.
As to the book... I didn't read yet and this completely depends on the narration. Dropping "little details" may be well-justified even without a real retcon. Or not.
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
Dark elves [...] That makes them sound closer to moon/sun elves in terms of abilities
According to Cormanthyr, Suyoll (The Revival) High Magic ritual can revert transformation for one drow... "judge as a moon elf". |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 11 Oct 2011 16:47:08 |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 20:07:16
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| Please keep in mind in LP trilogy it says the followers"priestesses"of lolth would not be redeemed by the sacrifice of the darkmaiden/high magic spell |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 20:46:21
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| I always viewed the Descent as a typical High Magic effect that got out of control of its casters. Though it does raise some suspicions as Corellon was noted as the source of magic the high mages channeled. So who's fault was it that condemned an entire subrace to spiritual death? Granted, in the last 10,000 years it's almost assured Lolth has stamped 99% of the good out of those that survived the fall. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 21:06:33
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Both Corellon's and the high mages'. The reasoning behind it was pretty much this:
''Oh, the dark elves used dark powah (i.e granted by Lolth/Vhaearun/Ghaunadaur) in a war where countless episodes of mass extermination happened and where even ''darker'' magic was used? The must definitely be cursed forevah! And all their descendants too! And even the survivors of Miyeritar, who were actually victims!''
The hypocrisy and idiocy in this act is what prevents me from liking the Realmsian version of Corellon and the elves, as they still believe that the Descent makes sense.
Also, this is why the ''redemption'' makes very little sense. Seriously, what are they being redeemed for? Being born as drow? This concept sucks IMO. Eilistraee and her followers mean ''redemption'' as in taking a stand and forging one's own future instead of being brainwashed by Lolth, not as in being turned into a wood elf. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Jul 2013 21:08:36 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 00:08:05
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and one would wonder why some of us ignore the LP series.
no sense whatsoever just like the death of mystra, the death of Helm., and msot of alot of other things......
as to which drow. which ever ones you want got ch anged and the ones that you dont want changed didnt.
moving on.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 01:05:44
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| While we are on the subject...drow are suppose to be intelligent and lolth and corellon are both considered to be smart to,so how did they make such ignorant children? Vhearaun was still wounded from fighting selvetarm so why would he attack his sister in her realm?And why would the dark maiden trust lady penitant enough to confront her with NO protection or precautions? We're talking about beings with the knowledge of eons and worlds making glaring error in judgment that go against the doctrine and traditions of their followers. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 01:20:21
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That's why deities should never be anthopomorphisised in fiction.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 01:39:51
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quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
While we are on the subject...drow are suppose to be intelligent and lolth and corellon are both considered to be smart to,so how did they make such ignorant children? Vhearaun was still wounded from fighting selvetarm so why would he attack his sister in her realm?And why would the dark maiden trust lady penitant enough to confront her with NO protection or precautions? We're talking about beings with the knowledge of eons and worlds making glaring error in judgment that go against the doctrine and traditions of their followers.
The answer is quite simple: WotC decided that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (and Kiaransalee and Selvertarm) shouldn't be in the canonical Realms and tasked some writer to get rid of them. The reason why their behaviour was so lame* in the novel is beyond me, but I suspect that the author wanted to leave room for their return (which, in fact, was going to happen last summer, before wizards decided that they didn't want it to happen) and for that reason left such blatant loopholes.
*AFAIK Lolth doesn't actually do anything concrete, they basically defeat themselves (and there is no compelling reason why someone as smart as a god would gamble everything on a chess match).
EDIT:
quote:
That's why deities should never be anthopomorphisised in fiction.
If their role is well ''played'' and it enriches the story, why not? It's having deities doing stuff so stupid that even a child would laugh at them that shouldn't happen... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Jul 2013 01:47:58 |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 02:51:27
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I share markustay's opinion on the seldarine....whole-Heartedly. Yet if HIGH lady ordalf and her son are examples of the so-called pure bred children of corellon than its no wonder the gold elves treated the darkelves with such callous regard. They were imitating the leshay!
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I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 22:54:01
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| It has been a while since I've read the LP trilogy (and I'm dying for a follow-up, but WotC doesn't seem that interested), so I don't remember it describing drow being a subrace of green elves. Oh, how closely related Shevarash is to the people he hates XD |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 23:04:49
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| Im of the opinion that the greenelves are a a race in the fact that they are nature based societies like green\native american and darkelf/african tribel. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 23:23:13
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quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
Im of the opinion that the greenelves are a a race in the fact that they are nature based societies like green\native american and darkelf/african tribel.
Green and Dark Elven society isn't organized in tribes, AFAIK. Miyeritar was one of their Realms, and it was as advanced as Aryvandaar; Illefarn was equally shared among Moon, Sun and Green Elves -IIRC- and it was far from tribal...
The fact that these races of elves live in harmony with nature doesn't automatically impy that they are primitive. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Jul 2013 23:24:36 |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 23:07:19
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| In the drow of the underdark,it refers to the"tribes of ilythiiri" darkelves were jungle dwelling.some of the darkelves migrated north to get away from the more warlike tribes thus joining the woodelves of the north to form miyeritar.tribal doesnt mean uncivilized.drow are still of a tribal mindset(city states with Individual leaders,unbeholden to any but their councels and gods. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2013 : 00:11:15
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Nonetheless, both Green and Dark Elves have built advanced empires, which are far different from -using your words- the ''native american'', or ''african tribes'' kind of society.
Also, as far as I can see, City-States are not tribe-like structures. That would imply that ancient Greeks had a tribal mindset too (which -AFAIK- is not the case).
IRL, Humans used to live organized in tribes too at the beginning of their history, yet you don't say that they currently live like that... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 18 Jul 2013 00:24:13 |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 11:30:01
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| even the music enjoyed by sylvan and drow are percussion instruments like drums |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 11:55:25
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How is it related to what we're discussing?
I enjoy percussion instruments, even if only in an appropriate context. Does that make my mindset tribal?
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 05:45:30
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Well I really dnt know. Just nice to know someone is actually paying attention to what I post! Lol
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I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 06:42:48
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Some people are so demanding wanting in answer is less then a week.
According to the Grand History of The Realms dark elves were green elves just darker hue or words to that effect. That a nation of miyeritar be establish with the same green elves clearly makes sense, as far as ilythiiri nation goes clearly they might have been more aggressive or just protective of their nation.
One thing to remember the winners write most of the History. The Gold Elves that started the Crown wars get a few criticism, the Dark Elves in defense get most of the blame even though they did not start the series of wars.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 15:14:39
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On a side note: the original Ssri-Tel'Quessir were dark skin like the drow and has similar hair and eye colours in past editions.
In my 'overhaul' of the Realms, I'm keeping it like that, but giving the original dark elves a sort of dark grey skin tone with a larger variety in hair and eye colours with the drow have black skin, almost uniformly white hair and their usual eye colours, with red being very dominant.
I just wish the writers and other people would just stop trying to make the Elves 'good'. They clearly aren't 'good' and don't need to be treated like a 'good' people. Make them different than the other people, make them kind of alien to humans and other creatures, but most importantly: STOP RIPPING OFF TOLKIEN. Make something original, I mean damn.
P.S. How many times have I mentioned that I REALLY detest how all Elves are supposed to be nature boys/girls? Can we please move away from that? |
Edited by - Aryalómë on 21 Jul 2013 15:15:52 |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 21:37:28
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| I thought gold elves were cosmopolitan and not as nature based. Massive libraries,powerful wizards,and armored knights. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2013 : 03:55:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
On a side note: the original Ssri-Tel'Quessir were dark skin like the drow and has similar hair and eye colours in past editions.
In my 'overhaul' of the Realms, I'm keeping it like that, but giving the original dark elves a sort of dark grey skin tone with a larger variety in hair and eye colours with the drow have black skin, almost uniformly white hair and their usual eye colours, with red being very dominant.
I just wish the writers and other people would just stop trying to make the Elves 'good'. They clearly aren't 'good' and don't need to be treated like a 'good' people. Make them different than the other people, make them kind of alien to humans and other creatures, but most importantly: STOP RIPPING OFF TOLKIEN. Make something original, I mean damn.
P.S. How many times have I mentioned that I REALLY detest how all Elves are supposed to be nature boys/girls? Can we please move away from that?
You DO realize that elves are a type of FEY, right? They are- by definition- nature spirits/magical forest or earth-based beings. Tolkien was basing HIS elves off of the "alfar" of ancient Norse and Celtic mythologies. They WERE spirits or beings of light/nature/the earth. So much for originality. Tolkien was no more original himself. And having elves be highly talented wizards and such is well within the bounds of folklore as well. They have been viewed as shape-shifters/ illusionists/ tricksters/ weather-mages from long before Tolkien got hold of them. Look at old Welsh, Irish or Anglo-Saxon folklore. Elves were neither good nor evil, but were nearly always associated with the "sidhe" or fairy mounds, usually in deep forests, rural hills, streams, lakes, or other isolated places. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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KacyCrawford
Acolyte
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2013 : 10:05:58
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| lol thats a great one |
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Which drow turn back to green elves?
