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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 01:01:47
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I've heard bits and pieces of these two settings being connected in various interesting and sometimes fairly major ways.
(Such as a rumor that Myrkul, Bhaal, and Bane all hail from Ravenloft.)
Is that true? What other rumors have we heard, and what other official connections between the two have we got evidence of?
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"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 01:12:38
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Since we're talking about two of my favourite settings...
Here are all the official ties between the Realms and RAVENLOFT:-
quote:
From: Forgotten Realms
Draga Saltbitter – was a pirate in the Sword Coast
Chardath Spulzeeer – from area south of Waterdeep (see: Castle Spulzeeer)
Gondegal – conqueror of Arabel and Knight of the Shadows.
Harkon Lukas – grew up in Cormyr, now in Kartakass
Hazlik – Red Wizard from Thay
Jander Sunstar
Salizarr the Meazel – lived under Cormyr’s catacombs now in Necropolis
Nova Vassa – from Vaasa and Hordelands
Von Kharkov – Lord of Valachan
From: Kara-Tur (Forgotten Realms)
Domain of I'Cath
Jahed of the Stalkers (see: MCII)
Mayonaka (see: MCII)
Bane isn't from the Dread Domains however. Ed Greenwood, in Stormlight, suggested that Bane who used to be a mortal before he ascended to godhood, might have been born on another world, far different and far removed from Toril. He is worshipped in RAVENLOFT though, specifically, in Hazlan and Nova Vaasa.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Mar 2009 01:13:25 |
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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 01:23:40
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| I wonder if Bane died in Ravenloft when he died in the Realms. Does even our dear Sage's wisdom extend that far? |
"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 01:38:54
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During the days of 2e, the Bane present in RAVENLOFT was the same as the Bane in the Realms. Though, considering its been said that Hazlani priests of Bane still received their spells despite Bane's demise in the Realms... does suggest otherwise.
One theory put forth to explain that, notes that perhaps it proves that the gods worshipped in the Dread Domains are only masks of the Dark Powers and their worship provides no benefit to the gods themselves, even if they exist. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 01:51:17
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Or, maybe the worship of those in the Dread Domains is what sustained Bane after his death in the Realms, allowing him to be reborn...  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 02:07:54
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Nice theory Ashe, thats sort of the premise I was working under.
Or then again, it could even have simply split into a sort of Tiamat/Takhesis sort of thing as well. |
"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
Edited by - Raith on 03 Mar 2009 02:33:12 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 12:20:42
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| I like Ashe's theory there. Could work well into a campaign that uses both campaign settings. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 15:18:04
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| The premise doesn't work for me. In 2E, a deity's death in one place did not affect that deity's status anywhere else. So Bane could have been worshipped on a hundred extra worlds, and it wouldn't have been a factor for in the Realms, other than meaning he wasn't truly dead. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 15:26:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The premise doesn't work for me. In 2E, a deity's death in one place did not affect that deity's status anywhere else. So Bane could have been worshipped on a hundred extra worlds, and it wouldn't have been a factor for in the Realms, other than meaning he wasn't truly dead.
True, but Ravenloft is definitely unique among the planes. Since it maintains 'links' to so many worlds, and almost on a continuous basis, it might have more of a factor than Bane worship on another world. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 15:41:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The premise doesn't work for me. In 2E, a deity's death in one place did not affect that deity's status anywhere else. So Bane could have been worshipped on a hundred extra worlds, and it wouldn't have been a factor for in the Realms, other than meaning he wasn't truly dead.
And that would kinda support the bit I noted about Hazlani priests still having access to spells granted by Bane too.
Bane was obviously interested in maintaining his hold on Hazlan, as it was the only church allowed in the Domain, and he often punished those who attempted to reach beyond what he alone would grant to them. So it was a strong power-base for him.
Though, I'll note that Bane did go silent during the Grand Conjunction in RAVENLOFT. Speculation suggests that the catastrophic event somehow prevented Bane from directly accessing the aspect of himself inside the Dread Domains.
One theory I did have was, that while Bane was slowly gathering his essence back together in Realmspace he, perhaps unintentionally, drew upon some of the divine energy of the Bane aspect in the Dread Domains as well, which temporarily forced that aspect to disappear for a time. Whereupon, with the post-Grand Conjunction Dread Domains [and, consequently, the establishment of 3e RL], the portion of Bane's essence that remained in RAVENLOFT began to evolve, slightly, were it became "the Lawgiver" and his 'Iron Faith' of fate, obedience, and tyranny. Thus Bane, refocusing most of his restored essence in the Realms, simply allowed "the Lawgiver" aspect of his personae to continue in Hazlan. Perhaps one day intending on re-establishing himself there as "Bane" once again.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Mar 2009 15:42:34 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 16:08:10
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| Not exactly. The Dark Powers have always attempted to disrupt/distort the divine connection between a deity and a cleric -- with the intent of isolating one or the other. But as the example of Bane/the Lawgiver and his clergy suggests, that isn't always the case. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Mar 2009 16:09:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 16:12:48
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In the unique case of Ravenloft, I would have to agree that it was the Dark Powers themselves granting the spells, and 'masquerading' as the gods (see my thoughts about the Shadevari and Ravenloft being just a giant 'laboratory' in the other thread).
However, I'm also going to have to go along with Wooly on the part about Gods deaths only effecting the Realm in which they died. In some of my cosmological musings, I have stated that I believe there is a set of True Gods - the 'Archtypes' - that exist somewhere beyond mortal ken (the Great Ring?). These 'Overgods' (to use an old canon term) would then be able to create Avatars of their own - the deities most worlds are familiar with.
Now, we have some canon 'cosmic laws', one of which states that an outsider killed on a prime plane cannot return to that plane for a certain period of time (I think it was 100 years, but your milage may vary). Its easy enough to apply this to ALL outsiders, and say that even gods have to adhere to this law. In most cases, by the time the god was allowed 'back-in', his church would have fallen apart and he'd have no worshippers - this would be why gods abandon certain spheres - its too much work to rebuild after dying.
On the other hand, we know that certain circumstances can create loopholes within the cosmic structiure, and both fiends and gods can be 'brought back' to worlds they have been destroyed on (or banished from).
By thinking of world-specific deities as just avatars of even more powerful beings, we get something more akin to the original D&D way of looking at gods (they were BEYOND approach), and mortals are just (unknowingly) dealing with a 'piece' of the actual god. Also, individual pieces of the Archtype will, over time, develop in new and different ways, and also develop their own pesonalities and a certain amount of independence (which is why two 'Banes' from two different Prime Worlds would more likely fight then co-operate). Also, if these 'shards' absorb other divine essences (which happens all the time), the original Over-deity may lose any connection it has to that Avatar. Ergo, over the course of Aeons, 'little gods' would develop in their own right, as bits and pieces of divine essence got swapped around.
Looking at it that way, there is only one 'real' Corellon, but each world has it's own little Corellon for the Elves there. The Non-human Archtypes would have kept-up better with their Avatars, so that nearly all of them stay true to the original, but it is possible that even some of them may have been corrupted at some point (there could be a world with a Bane-like Corellon, who drives the Elves to wipeout all non-Elves).
This way, I get to have my cake and eat it to - I can say their is a limitless number of 'gods' in the multiverse, and this is excatly what most sages would know to be fact, but the 'deeper truth' is that there really is only one group of GODS, and that all of these 'little deities' are just shards of them.
I've never tried to sit down and figure out exactly who is in this Over-Pantheon, but I have to assume most of the demi-human Archtypes are. This also helps shoe-horn a lot of the 4e lore back into older editions - Talos and Gruumsh were seperate entities - but they were both aspects of an Over-power focused on rage and elemental destruction. Somehow - probably during the Orcgate Wars - a second aspect of that Elder God got into Realmspace. For a time, the two managed to co-exist, but during the Spellplague Years, gods were losing worshippers by the thousands, and it makes sense that one aspect went after and absorbed the other one.
That way, they were always seperate... yet they were also always the same. 
Anyhow, I seem to have went way off-track here, so just to end this on-topic, none of this would apply to Ravenloft - the 'Dark Powers' would have created their own psuedo-avatars to represent these gods. They may be very similar to the Avatar-deities on other worlds, but they were NOT created by their Archtype - they were imitations made by the Dark Powers. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2009 16:28:26 |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 12:55:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The premise doesn't work for me. In 2E, a deity's death in one place did not affect that deity's status anywhere else. So Bane could have been worshipped on a hundred extra worlds, and it wouldn't have been a factor for in the Realms, other than meaning he wasn't truly dead.
I think Wooly is right on this. If you look in Faiths and Avatars there is an entire section, aptly called 'So is Tiamat dead?', which explains how Gods and the multiverse interact with regards to the death of deities in distinct worlds and pantheons. |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2009 : 06:52:52
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| That's eerie, Markustay: I use almost the exact same concept. I've always added a shadowy 'Ur-diety' (all of the Archetype Gods being aspects of him/her/it, like the 'world gods' are aspects of the Archetypes). |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2009 : 19:14:18
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Before I knew that Osse had a name, I had been giving serious consideration to just altering it's shape a little bit and dropping the Dread Domains in it's place.
I'd love to get all of Toril up and running at some point to be honest...though I haven't had the good fortune to stumble on to the Kara-Tur campaign setting yet. |
"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2009 : 23:17:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Raith
Before I knew that Osse had a name, I had been giving serious consideration to just altering it's shape a little bit and dropping the Dread Domains in it's place.
Well, you could go the typical RAVENLOFT route and have some terrible event occur in Osse that draws the attention of the Dark Powers, and which forces them to remove both Osse [or perhaps part of it] and the individual responsible for the event to the Dread Domains and have it set up as a Domain complete with a Darklord.
Alternatively, and this is something I've been thinking about tinkering around with:- the Dark Powers simply took advantage of the Spellplague and the transposing of portions of Abeir with Toril to remove Osse completely and shift it into the Realm of Dread for a purpose only they can comprehend.
quote:
I'd love to get all of Toril up and running at some point to be honest...though I haven't had the good fortune to stumble on to the Kara-Tur campaign setting yet.
You could try paizo.com for the PDF. Or, look over on nobleknight.com for a second-hand printed copy.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 02:46:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Raith
I'd love to get all of Toril up and running at some point to be honest...though I haven't had the good fortune to stumble on to the Kara-Tur campaign setting yet.
You could try paizo.com for the PDF. Or, look over on nobleknight.com for a second-hand printed copy.
I've got an extra copy that's going to be hitting eBay sooner or later... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2009 : 15:00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
That's eerie, Markustay: I use almost the exact same concept. I've always added a shadowy 'Ur-diety' (all of the Archetype Gods being aspects of him/her/it, like the 'world gods' are aspects of the Archetypes).
Right - Each 'level' of cosmic being is just a part of a being highter-up. I have a layer between the 'Overgods' (which are very similar to 4e's Primordials) and THE ONE - The Elder Gods. These beings represet cosmic concept, like time and space. They created the Primordials (or Titans, Jotuns, ect..) to help them create the Prime Material from the body of Ymir (a fallen Elder God), and they in turn created the deities, who were originally nothing more then the 'foreman' in charge of world-building. Exarchs were then created by them (Immortal beings, which would include both Fiends and Celestials) to do the 'heavy lifting'.
Its like one big corporation. 
No wonder I like the Celestial Bureaucracy so much.
Sorry for the side-track, mods. Just to add my two cents about the actual topic -
I like that Osse is undefined, in that a DM who has a fondness for some other setting can just plunk-down that setting where Osse is. Its just a big, round landmass that could be anything you want it to be, and I have changed my mind as to what I have there at least a dozen times already (not that it matters IG, since none of my players have even left Faerűn).
Edit: Ack! That wasn't even the topic. 
Boy have we gone far afield. As for Ravenloft, I always felt there was deeper connection between it and FR (despite its obvious connection to GH), and with 4e's Monolithic interpretation of Shar, and the Shadowfel most likely being the home of the Land of Mists, we may actually see a little bit of that.
Not too much I hope - they do have a way of over-doing things these days. Just a hint of a connection would be cool (like saying the Dark Powers are advanced Shadevari, as I have postulated elswhere).
Then again... this all makes me wonder if the Shade Enclave wasn't part of the Realms of Dread - one of those 'islands' that were never mentioned (supposedly there were numerous ones that were never discussed).
Edit2: Or it could be the Enclave floated 'above' the main body of Ravenloft, and most folks were unaware of its existance. A dark Realm existing in the airspace above the others. That would mean Telemont was an unknown Dark Lord (it fits, doesn't it?). Its also a good reason why no-one from there interacted with the other denizens of Ravenloft the whole while that Shade was in the Shadowfel - its 'borders' would have simply been a mile-high fall. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2009 15:20:52 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2021 : 23:24:56
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Well, in 2E module the the Awakening module, and repeated in Domains and Denizens it's stated Nova Vaasa started as part of Vaasa, along with Tristen Hiregaard:
quote:
Tristen Hiregaard, was the first son on Rmor Hiregaard, a princelly knight of Vaasa, a principality on a distant world in the Prime Material Plane.
This Vaasa does seem different, being a principality. Possibly being indeed pulled from the future, or from an alternate Toril.
In late 2E, it was outright stated the Bane is worshipped , and cult is the state religion of Nova Vaasa - thought was probably a Dark Power posing as him. Latter in 3E materials, Bane was only known as "the Lawgiver". 3rd edition also introdued the "Devil" figure to the Lawgiver's church - Mytteri - obviously a twisted memory of Mystra. Mytteri though is presented as male/masculine, and the Church of Bane/Lawgiver presents Mytteri as the emodiment, and source of all of evil and chaos.:
http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/The_Lawgiver
http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Category:Church_of_the_Lawgiver
http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Mytteri |
Edited by - Baltas on 16 Jun 2021 23:38:41 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Forgotten Realms/Ravenloft Connections
