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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 18:48:00
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I was just checking out the trailer and stuff for Blizzard's Diablo III, and I couldn't help notice more of this 'merging' of D&D and Video Games taking place.
Take a look at Blizzard's Lolth Here and Here.
Do these two companies feed off of each other, or what? 
And sadly, once again I think Blizzard did a better job with it's version - Muy Scarey.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 19:06:00
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First off, do they actually call her Lolth!?
Recovering from that...
There's a huge difference between DnD and Diablo. First of all, it was DnD that preceded Blizzard's game, and almost anyone would agree that Diablo was originally influenced by the former.
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, is the fact that DnD settings are, for the most part, high fantasy, whereas Diablo is dark fantasy. I hate to label stuff with early authors, but it's largely Tolkeinesque and Lovecraftian, respectively.
From a more modern standpoint, Lovecraftian stuff looks cooler, because macabre designs are becoming more prevalent and more creative. Just look at... like... American McGee or something.
So far, 3.x+ DnD settings haven't really pulled off the whole "scary artwork" thing, unless you wanna look at BoVD (and I really don't).
I'll agree, however, that Blizzard's Lolth is pretty freakin' scary. But it's concept art, you know? The character is likely meant to evoke some form of fear, so the art is going to represent that. It won't necessarily be presented quite as well in the game.
We've gotten to that point, though, where something looking stereotypically scary, like the demons and devils of DnD, aren't quite as scary as the things that look simply wrong, like Blizzard's Lady of Pain.
Edit: Sorry, Mistress of Pain |
Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling. |
Edited by - GoCeraf on 28 Aug 2008 19:08:21 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 19:27:19
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Well, I meant Blizzard and WotC, not Diablo vs D&D, when pointing out how they like to 'borrow' stuff from each other.
And NO, they do not call her Lolth (I think). Those were taken from an online gallery of concept art for the new game, so I have no idea who she is, outside of the fact that she's a MAJOR baddie (her image appears in stone in some of the dungeons).
I just get a kick out of this, because it came up over at Paizo (by fans, not their company people) about what can be legally used in Pathfinder and what can't, and as long as you find instances wherein Hasbro/WotC haven't defended that particular portion of their IP, their ownership of it becomes questionable.
If they do not challenge Blizzard's use of Lolth's image (even if they rename her and lose all connection to Drow Elves), it is the first step in them losing control of said imagery.
And its a two-edeged sword - if they DO challenge it, and LOSE, then that sets a precedent for every other company to consider portions of their IP fair game.
Can of worms, indeed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Aug 2008 19:09:26 |
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keijemon
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 20:28:36
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Blizzard has perfected the "take idea, add minor tweak" to a science. Their entire Starcraft universe it pretty much Warhammer 40K with stuff renamed, and they never got sued over it.
They know how to tweak enough to avoid trouble. And considering how much 4th edition took from WoW game mechanics wise, I don't think Wizards will bother suing. |
The greatest trick Ao ever pulled, is convincing Toril he didn't exist. |
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 23:17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Can of worms, indeed.
Can of wyrms, you mean. |
Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 08:07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just get a kick out of this, because it came up over at Paizo (by fans, not their company people) about what can be legally used in Pathfinder and what can't, and as long as you find instances wherein Hasbro/WotC haven't defended that particular potion of their IP, their ownership of it becomes questionable.
If they do not challenge Blizzard's use of Lolth's image (even if they rename her and lose all connection to Drow Elves), it is the first step in them losing control of said imagery.
And its a two-edeged sword - if they DO challenge it, and LOSE, then that sets a precedent for every other company to consider portions of their IP fair game.
Not quite - at worst, what Blizzard has done was to adapt the concept of Lolth (half woman, half spider). They have not (as far as I can tell, I do not know all the images of Lolth ever produced by WotC) reproduced a copyrighted image. Apparently, they have not used the name either, but even if they had, it would only be an IP violation if "Lolth" was a (registered) trademark.
Also, the loss of IP through non-defense is a phenomenon limited to trademarks. It does not apply to other forms of IP, such as copyright or patents (other than the statutes of limitation, of course).
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
Their entire Starcraft universe it pretty much Warhammer 40K with stuff renamed, and they never got sued over it.
Same thing there - the idea of WH40K is just that, an idea. As long as they do not outright lift any elements from the existing material, normally there's no chance of suing and winning.
Although, as always, one can never predict what individual judges and juries will come up with. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 08:57:14
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| Having seen lots of drow-related stuff in the early days of d20, I would assume that "Lolth" as a name is copyrighted, whereas drow, dark elves, and e.g. "Spider Queen" is not, even if the latter clearly refers to none other than Lolth. BTW, contrary to common opinion and depiction, I do not view Lolth as a drow-head-headed spider or drider, but a drow female first and foremost. The usualy depictions are IMHO simply meant to portray her as the evil and wicked and "horrible" creature she's supposed to present. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 29 Aug 2008 08:58:27 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 09:50:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Take a look at Blizzard's Lolth Here and Here.
Looking at those images I can't help but wonder why skeletal spider legs have been fleshed out into more shapely female legs and given stockings. These guys definitely need to get out more!
Is it Lolth or something that hints very strongly at Lolth. Who knows.
As regards copyright, dark elves and drow are names from European mythology. I doubt either could be copyrighted although I think that perhaps 'drow' actually is. Sad that. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 12:53:27
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| Matter of factly, I seem to remember that Elder Scrolls: Arena (1992 or something) does indeed use the word "drow" in relation to their dark elves. The term as such was IMHO invented by Mr. Gygax and and Realmsified by Jim Lowder and later on Ed Greenwood (as of The Drow of the Underdark intro) - with a tentative link being given to Norse Mythology. You won't find the term as such in there though. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 13:45:23
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| As far as I know dark elves are the svartalfar in Norse mythology and Celtic (particularly Scottish) mythology talks about the drow. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 15:43:03
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Blizzard has, and always will be the masters of taking something, adapting it and then putting out a brilliant product.
They are very careful about their copyright issues. For example, thinking of WoW, I could show you He-Man and Battlecat, Link (from Zelda), Paris Hilton, Tina Turner, etc.
Case in point: In Beta for their Death Knights, you can now give your Blood Elves dark skin with white hair... remind you of anything? XD
~ Crennen |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 16:08:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Having seen lots of drow-related stuff in the early days of d20, I would assume that "Lolth" as a name is copyrighted, whereas drow, dark elves, and e.g. "Spider Queen" is not, even if the latter clearly refers to none other than Lolth.
A single word can not be be copyrighted for that matter even "Fair and Balanced" did not have IP protection. There are not enough words to qualify for copyright, the other option is trademark protection.
TSR did try to trademark Drow and failed. Lolth is not trademarked and can not be copyrighted. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 19:20:09
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Like I said, this has been discussed extensively on the Paizo forums (and I reiterate, BY FANS, NOT employees), and it is the general consensus that as long as you can find some instance of something similar being used in the past, you cannot be challenged on your own useage, be it just an image, or even a name.
By the way, SEVERAL lawyers took part in that discussion, so I would assume they knew what they were talking about. 
Although Drow came up a lot, the main point of interest was the Beholder, because many feel that the Beholder is THE iconic monster of D&D (Dragons are really too generic in fantasy lore). We were able to come up with plenty of visual references to similar creatures, so something like the Beholder can be used by Paizo, but they cannot use the name coupled with that particular image (nor "eye Tyrant", or anything else used by WotC/TSR). They CAN use the name "Beholder" and apply it to something completely different, but that would be counter-productive, I would imagine.
Besides, I mostly just posted this thread becasue I thought those images were wicked-cool.
I wish WotC could do concept art as good as Blizzard does. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Aug 2008 20:08:48 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 19:42:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I wish WotC could do concept art as good as Blizzard does.
They just need to get some art people who are as passionate about their settings as the blizzard people are about theirs. Take Samwise or Raneman for example. They are really passionate about their work. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 20:09:57
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Which goes right back to the problem of the people working on FR not really liking FR.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 10:54:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
As far as I know dark elves are the svartalfar in Norse mythology and Celtic (particularly Scottish) mythology talks about the drow.
Well, I've done my fair share of "research" on that (for obvious reasons), but other than claims that "drow" is linked to "something in" Northern European (if you will) mythology, nothing came of it. No doubt, the dark elves are essentially the svartalfs of Germanic mythology, though it is hard to discern what these svartalfs actually were, dwarves, or "elves". In term of ... let's say learned opinion. Lots of popular ideas about them, of course. I do remember though that Gygax said that he only styled the drow (race and name) after something mythological, rather than doing a straight copy.
Re-reading his The Anubis Murders novel, he showed a knack of mixing up everything from Egyptian religion to Finnish and Celtic mythology.
As for Lolth and single-names being copyrighted ... I am pretty sure that Harry Potter and Elminster are as copyrighted as Lolth. Drow might be another matter. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 14:18:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
As for Lolth and single-names being copyrighted ... I am pretty sure that Harry Potter and Elminster are as copyrighted as Lolth. Drow might be another matter.
I don't disagree with you. My point about the drow is that there are other associations with that name. Lolth has, as far as I know, one association, which is associated with D&D.
As regards your comments about svartalfar possibly being dwarves. I've read about that too. Although the main comment is that the svartalfar were as the ljosalfar except as dark as the ljosalfar were bright. Which is possibly the inspiration for the drow of D&D. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Who owns Lolth?
