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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 06:01:10
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http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080819a
They've seriously revamped the spell Simbul's Synostodweomer. They named it Simbul's Conversion, made it 1st level (from 7th!), and now it converts a number of arcane powers into an equal amount of healing surges! Congrats, WotC, you just turned wizards into healers -- and did it with a retcon.
On the other hand, the Walk Crossroads spell ritual (have I mentioned how much I loathe this ritual idea?) shows that crossroads and backroads are still around. That was one of the few good developments of 3E.
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 09:23:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They've seriously revamped the spell Simbul's Synostodweomer. They named it Simbul's Conversion, made it 1st level (from 7th!), and now it converts a number of arcane powers into an equal amount of healing surges! Congrats, WotC, you just turned wizards into healers -- and did it with a retcon.
Am I wrong or was one of the reasons for having a new edition that "Wizards are too powerful" and needed to be "balanced"??? Giving them low level healing in any form just shows how much this is geared for "solo-playing button bashing computer-gaming".
Its like EQ and WoW again, where the classes got "unique powers" from other classes over time, so you dont need a character of a certain class to have a skill in your group. For me this reduces the style factor for a game. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 19 Aug 2008 09:23:58 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 11:25:05
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I think this is the worst part of 4e: Making rituals of any kind avaiblable to every class possible. Eliminating the differences between the classes this edition makes all classes the same, whether you are a wizzard or a fighter - it does not matter, everyone has the same possibilities.
One of the greatest misconceptions of the 4e rules: classes have to be balanced. Followers of this mantra regularly cannot appreciate the bliss that is 3.x. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 19 Aug 2008 11:25:26 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 13:12:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
I think this is the worst part of 4e: Making rituals of any kind avaiblable to every class possible.
Exactly my point of view. Rituals are a neat thing to add to your spellcasters (and I am changing some spells to become rituals of some sort for 3rd edition) ... and keeping the mechanics of melee classes different from casters. Having a difference in classes (and a pretty good story background) is what makes WoW more intersting than EQ2 (which has a "homogenous and balanced class system" where everyone gets something of equal power at each level).
The big problem with spellcasters in 3rd edition (and previous ones) isnt that they are more powerful, but that the encounters are geared to allow them to use their full potential of flexibility. With this in mind - and it is a systematic problem between spellcasters and melee types (unless melee types can do "magic stuff" just like the casters) - there is no need to try and balance the power level of different classes. All you need is to tailor the encounters to give every type of class their "15 minutes of fame" every gaming evening. This is the job of the DM and of the gaming company (who should teach the DMs how to do it in a generic book about roleplaying).
The Simbul's Synostodweomer was ok, because you had to sacrifice a 7th level spell and another for less healing than a Heal spell, which is only level 6. Since the Simbul probably died when Mystra died and the Weave dispersed I dont understand how there can be a spell named after her in 4th edition. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 19 Aug 2008 13:15:09 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 13:33:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
I think this is the worst part of 4e: Making rituals of any kind avaiblable to every class possible. Eliminating the differences between the classes this edition makes all classes the same, whether you are a wizzard or a fighter - it does not matter, everyone has the same possibilities.
One of the greatest misconceptions of the 4e rules: classes have to be balanced. Followers of this mantra regularly cannot appreciate the bliss that is 3.x.
Yeah, although I absolutely *love* the idea of Rituals, and how they work in mechanical terms in 4E, why did they give access to them to everyone? Oh, it might be "fair" in terms of balance, but since rituals cannot be cast in combat, why not give fighters "craft actions" (ability to forge any armor or weapon), rogues "thievery actions" (extra treasure or something) and so on? Wasn't that the original intention anyway... to give every class "fitting and thematic" out-of-combat stuff to do? I mean, come on -- fighters and rogues *resurrecting* people?!?   It might be fitting in fantasy fiction that main protagonists could perform "petty magic" and even more complex rituals, but it sure does not fit in D&D, IMO -- especially with this "Know Your Role!"-type of thinking in 4E.
Some of those FR rituals look like thematically and mechanically fitting for 4E FR spellcasters, but some (like Simbul's Conversion) will probably be just epic failures.
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 15:06:20
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| [vomits violently upon reading this thread] |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 16:13:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Yeah, although I absolutely *love* the idea of Rituals, and how they work in mechanical terms in 4E, why did they give access to them to everyone? Oh, it might be "fair" in terms of balance, but since rituals cannot be cast in combat, why not give fighters "craft actions" (ability to forge any armor or weapon), rogues "thievery actions" (extra treasure or something) and so on? Wasn't that the original intention anyway... to give every class "fitting and thematic" out-of-combat stuff to do? I mean, come on -- fighters and rogues *resurrecting* people?!? It might be fitting in fantasy fiction that main protagonists could perform "petty magic" and even more complex rituals, but it sure does not fit in D&D, IMO -- especially with this "Know Your Role!"-type of thinking in 4E.
When I read this, I thought of Diablo I, the first game of the series from the mid-90ths. There all three classes - fighter, rogue, and sorcerer - could learn and use magic (learned by reading tomes, IIRC, giving you one more skillpoint per tome in a particular spell), but a fighter and a rogue never could use these spells as effective as a socerer. So a fighter could summon a fireball, for example, but a level 3 fireball cast by a fighter was pathetic compared to a level 3 fireball cast by a sorcerer. That reflected that a fighter wasn't a scholar like a sorcerer but a more practical and martial oriented class (which was a field of expertise a sorcerer didn't shine in).
Is there any mechanism to inhibit the effectiveness of rituals for classes not fitting to that particular kind of ritual in 4e? |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 16:55:26
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It's important to keep in mind that the magic system is fundamentally different in 4E than in earlier editions
@Wooly: You may be aware of this but your post forces me to remind you that granting someone healing surges in 4th edition is *not* turning that person into a healer. All classes have healing surges and all classes can heal themselves. This solves a great pain in earlier editions where you always needed a priest in the party. Simbul’s Conversion is not a retcon as Simbul’s Synostodweomer still exists historically in the period before the Spellplague. The Simbul, like all arcane spellcasters, has had to relearn and recraft her spells over the last century.
@Pandora: Rituals cannot effectively be cast during combat so this ritual (or any other for that matter) hardly destroys game balance. Again, you guys need to read the ritual description more clearly. Simbul’s Conversion allows you to increase your healing surge total, nothing more. In effect, this ritual permits a party to continue adventuring a little longer without having to take an extended rest.
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 19:38:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
@Pandora: Rituals cannot effectively be cast during combat so this ritual (or any other for that matter) hardly destroys game balance. Again, you guys need to read the ritual description more clearly. Simbul’s Conversion allows you to increase your healing surge total, nothing more. In effect, this ritual permits a party to continue adventuring a little longer without having to take an extended rest.
I read that and I know what it means. I really hope you know some german to make the explanation why I am against mixing these "class specific skills/spells" (healing *should not* be something a Wizard can do) so everyone can do everything.
There is a term in german called "eierlegende Wollmilchsau", which basically describes an animal which is:
a. a sow (so it can reproduce and give meat),
b. lays eggs,
c. gives milk and
d. has a fur for wool.
Trying to create things that "do it all" are described with this term, but usually when its pretty clear that the result wouldnt work. In this case it describes a result that *should not* (at least in my and other peoples opinions) work.
Why? Because it removes the need for teamwork and for having a healer in the adventuring group. Personally I dont have a problem with playing a healer, but most of todays triggerhappy Counterstrike kids want the "glory of the killshot", i.e. being able to deal most damage. Hence we had the stupid amount of "builds" for 3rd edition, which all focused on maximizing damage instead of balancing survivability and roleplaying style. Adding anything this cheap to a Wizard simply is wrong IMO, because Wizards traditionally had more flexible spells than Clerics / Druids already and giving them a something that they didnt have before - this early - is bad.
I dont know how the 4th edition rules work, but I believe what The Alexandrian describes as pretty believable. He says on the topic of Healing Surges in his anaylysis of The Nova Cylcle (the 15-minute adventuring day problem): quote:
Aggravating this problem even further, there's the issue of healing surges. Characters have a certain number of healing surges per day, and virtually all healing in 4th Edition works by activating and using up these healing surges. Once you've used up your healing surges for the day, you basically can't be healed any more and you have to rest.
What does it mean? Once you have used up the Healing Surges you have to rest and this simply enforces the 15-minute-adventuring-day. Thus the whole rule is kinda bad IMO. If it is necessary to give - probably every class to be fair and balanced - a class an ability to recharge the healing surges to fix the problem of enforced rest it really isnt that well designed IMO.
I know I am biting at the "Healing Surge sausage" from both ends ("Wizards shouldnt be able to modify it" and "it isnt a great concept to begin with"), but I didnt like the concept from the beginning, because it stinks too much of catering to the "solo adventuring for the non-healer" crowd. Adventuring is a dirty business and it is risky. It also should require you to work together with your companions instead of being able to do it all alone.
The Synostodweomer in comparison is ok, because it is a high level spell and not available at low levels. It also provides a pretty low amount of healing compared to "real healing". A healing surge is a healing surge is a healing surge and it doesnt really matter that the conversion cant be cast while in combat.
As I already stated above I dont know if the Simbul is dead and how / when she died, but I also explained my somewhat logical reasoning behind her death (as a chosen she couldnt have survived the death of Mystra and the Weave, right?). How a description of The Simbul taught this ritual to many of her apprentices, and it has since become widely employed as an emergency resource. mixes with the Simbul probably being dead before the Spellplague (and the "new magic") and her having researched new rituals which get her name and having taught them to many apprentices is something I dont know. IMO its these details / questions which get people annoyed about some of these excerpts. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Stormlord
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 22:22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
As I already stated above I dont know if the Simbul is dead and how / when she died, but I also explained my somewhat logical reasoning behind her death (as a chosen she couldnt have survived the death of Mystra and the Weave, right?). How a description of The Simbul taught this ritual to many of her apprentices, and it has since become widely employed as an emergency resource. mixes with the Simbul probably being dead before the Spellplague (and the "new magic") and her having researched new rituals which get her name and having taught them to many apprentices is something I dont know. IMO its these details / questions which get people annoyed about some of these excerpts.
According to the thread at enworld, the Simbul is still alive and "somewhere in the Dalelands", for what it is worth.
These are just my opinions on certain matters, yours may vary:
For Healing Surges, I am not a fan of them as they are, I do not like the aspect behind them on multiple uses. I understand the idea of a "Second Wind" type ability but they should have limited to once a day for "weaker" types (casters, warlocks, clerics) and maybe twice a day for "stronger" types (fighters, paladins, etc..).
The 15-minute-adventuring-day can also be used in older editions, not just 4e. You nova the first combat and then the party as a whole says, "We're done, we're setting up camp here!". Though, to me, that does not seem like a very fun way to play the game. And most DMs would call the game to a halt and discuss that while it is certainly do-able, it takes away from the spirit of the game.
I enjoy the thought of ritual magic a lot, though not what it is in 4e. I do not like that they let anyone initiate it (if I understand what I have read correctly), I know it was for equality amongst all, but it just takes that little bit that is the arcane/divine caster. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 01:30:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I dont know how the 4th edition rules work, but I believe what
Yeah, you don't know that healing surges can't be used effectively without teamwork in combat.
4E more than any edition of D&D force players to work together to be sucessful during combat (with 3.x it was before combat, i.e. buffing).
If you win some hard combats without doing group tactics in 4E, it's because your DM is pulling his punchs. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 20 Aug 2008 01:32:39 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 02:09:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Yeah, although I absolutely *love* the idea of Rituals, and how they work in mechanical terms in 4E, why did they give access to them to everyone? Oh, it might be "fair" in terms of balance, but since rituals cannot be cast in combat, why not give fighters "craft actions" (ability to forge any armor or weapon), rogues "thievery actions" (extra treasure or something) and so on? Wasn't that the original intention anyway... to give every class "fitting and thematic" out-of-combat stuff to do? I mean, come on -- fighters and rogues *resurrecting* people?!? It might be fitting in fantasy fiction that main protagonists could perform "petty magic" and even more complex rituals, but it sure does not fit in D&D, IMO -- especially with this "Know Your Role!"-type of thinking in 4E.
"Know Your Role" is a combat encounter thing.
Opening rituals to all classes simply enable different genres/themes. If a group agree that fighters shouldn't bring people from dead, this group fighters won't select this ritual.
There is no crafting rituals, because 4E assume that any time a player will ask to craft some mundane stuff, the DM will simply "say yes".
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 02:32:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I dont know how the 4th edition rules work, but I believe what
Yeah, you don't know that healing surges can't be used effectively without teamwork in combat.
4E more than any edition of D&D force players to work together to be sucessful during combat (with 3.x it was before combat, i.e. buffing).
If you win some hard combats without doing group tactics in 4E, it's because your DM is pulling his punchs.
Healing Surge: Well its not the point that healing surges can be used with teamwork during combat. The question is: Does everyone need a "self regeneration capability"? Since you get a healing surge whenever an encounter starts - at least thats what I think how it works - it is regenerating you somewhat. After doing a search on the D&D page I found out that you can use healing surges to "power" quite a lot of different things like a Bag of Tricks and for a Ritual in Keep on the Shadowfell. The explanation for this is that you send positive life energy into the ritual. Are all living beings (those who have healing surges) "psychic" in 4e now, so they can mentally control their own positive life force? This makes the whole concept of healing surges quite unstylish to me and adds yet another reason not to buy 4e.
Teamwork: So your DM does announce "you will fight in 5 minutes, so start buffing"? Mine never did and the rather short duration of many buffs require you to do that while you are already fighting. We never had that 15 minute adventuring day either ... |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 02:53:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Healing Surge: Well its not the point that healing surges can be used with teamwork during combat. The question is: Does everyone need a "self regeneration capability"? Since you get a healing surge whenever an encounter starts - at least thats what I think how it works - it is regenerating you somewhat. After doing a search on the D&D page I found out that you can use healing surges to "power" quite a lot of different things like a Bag of Tricks and for a Ritual in Keep on the Shadowfell. The explanation for this is that you send positive life energy into the ritual. Are all living beings (those who have healing surges) "psychic" in 4e now, so they can mentally control their own positive life force? This makes the whole concept of healing surges quite unstylish to me and adds yet another reason not to buy 4e.
Healing surges and HP work together to represent the overall status of a character. Second Wind is the ability that all PCs have that represent a per-encounter "self-regeneration" that consumes a healing surge. Narration only will tell what it meant during actual play for a particuliar character*.
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Teamwork: So your DM does announce "you will fight in 5 minutes, so start buffing"? Mine never did and the rather short duration of many buffs require you to do that while you are already fighting. We never had that 15 minute adventuring day either ...
D&D 3.x gave many ways for players to decide when combat happen, especially in levels where scrying and teleport are accessible. There is also a ton of long-term buffing effects in 3.x.
I'm not the one to say that 4E is a perfect RPG, but Rituals and Healing surges are certainly both very good addition to D&D.
*Many Powers, abilities and such work are based on this idea in 4E. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 20 Aug 2008 03:02:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 03:19:39
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| Okay, this is turning into another pro-4E versus anti-4E discussion. We've got enough of those already, so let's take the discussion to one of them, and get back to the original topic. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 06:16:13
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I just removed a seriously off-topic and entirely uncalled-for comment from this thread. All I am asking is that we stick to the topic, and take the pro-4E/anti-4E discussion to one of the many threads where this is already being discussed. If we can't stick to the original topic, I will close this thread.  |
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Another excerpt: Rituals
