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Aina Grey
Acolyte
Austria
43 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Feb 2008 : 23:11:43
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howdy
where can I find the full text prophecies of Alaundo that are related to the appearance of Bhaalīs spawn (as in the BG computer game)
does this text even exist?
also on this topic: in 3rd editionīs Deities and Demigods there is explicitely stated that children of gods are quasi-deities of divine rank 0 and therefore immortal and all that stuff
in 2nd edition (which is used in the Baldurīs Gate computer game) this is obviously not the case - so which one is the correct solution now? or are the Bhaalspawn neither quasi-deities nor ordinaire mortals but a 3rd kind of entity?
thanks
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Edited by - Aina Grey on 10 Feb 2008 23:20:15
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 00:07:10
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Aside from one or two brief [and specific] details about particular prophecies in print, we have yet to see any kind of "official" treatment dealing with Alaundo's prophecies. It's important to note that even attempting to provide specific information about any of the prophecies should be exceedingly difficult, for the most part. After all, it's not unheard of for Alaundo's prophecies to have a number of different ways they're interpreted/seen.
You may just want to copy those few Bhaalspawn-related prophecies that were referenced in the game itself.
...
I'll leave the rules-related question for some other scribe who is more proficient with the D&D rules set than I. 
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 02:00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Aina Grey
howdy
where can I find the full text prophecies of Alaundo that are related to the appearance of Bhaalīs spawn (as in the BG computer game)
does this text even exist?
Nope. Alaundo made so many prophecies, that any DM (or game designer) can make up whatever prophecies are needed for their story. That was the case with the Bhaalspawn prophecies.
Bhaalspawn did not exist at all, officially, until the games came along.
quote:
also on this topic: in 3rd editionīs Deities and Demigods there is explicitely stated that children of gods are quasi-deities of divine rank 0 and therefore immortal and all that stuff
in 2nd edition (which is used in the Baldurīs Gate computer game) this is obviously not the case - so which one is the correct solution now? or are the Bhaalspawn neither quasi-deities nor ordinaire mortals but a 3rd kind of entity?
Since the Bhaalspawn were products of a 2E game, I don't consider them to be quasi-deities. But, I don't think there is any kind of official ruling about that. If you really need an answer, I say do what you want for your story. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 13:45:36
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| In Dragon Magazine October issue 288 there is a 3e Bhaalspawn template that you could use as a guideline on how to treat them. (Divine rank or not?) |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you dont want to move to the new Realms, that doesnt mean theres anything wrong with either you or the old Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches wont fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2008 : 22:32:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
In Dragon Magazine October issue 288 there is a 3e Bhaalspawn template that you could use as a guideline on how to treat them. (Divine rank or not?)
Indeed, there is a template, but I would like to throw in my opinion and say I do not recommend it, even as a guideline. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Aina Grey
Acolyte
Austria
43 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2008 : 15:21:10
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Iīll treat them as quasi-gods per Deities and Demigods, but without damage and energy reduction (thatīs a somewhat broken rule anyway imo)
another question that is related to the topic (somehow at least)
whatīs the respective years 1st and 2nd edition Forgotten Realms are set in?
PS: if you want to know why I need these informations see my comic:
http://www.404forums.net/showthread.php?t=2973 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2008 : 16:41:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Aina Grey
another question that is related to the topic (somehow at least)
whatīs the respective years 1st and 2nd edition Forgotten Realms are set in?
1357 (the old grey box campaign setting box) to 1372/1373 (Cloak & Dagger, the last 2e sourcebook). |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Aina Grey
Acolyte
Austria
43 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2008 : 23:45:33
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thanks
more questions inevitably to follow...
and hereīs one more beginnerīs question to the Realms:
(I just got my FR campaign setting today  )
clerics of a cause: why not in the FR?
always been that way, or is this a 3rd edition "invention"?
(cause thatīs one more rule I inevitably have to *bend*)
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Edited by - Aina Grey on 14 Feb 2008 00:07:23 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2008 : 00:47:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Aina Grey
thanks
more questions inevitably to follow...
and hereīs one more beginnerīs question to the Realms:
(I just got my FR campaign setting today )
clerics of a cause: why not in the FR?
always been that way, or is this a 3rd edition "invention"?
(cause thatīs one more rule I inevitably have to *bend*)
No divine caster in FR worships a generic cause or whatever, especially since there are many deities that could be used. So, that is one change that FR hasn't used unlike core material. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2008 : 03:16:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Aina Grey
thanks
more questions inevitably to follow...
and hereīs one more beginnerīs question to the Realms:
(I just got my FR campaign setting today )
clerics of a cause: why not in the FR?
always been that way, or is this a 3rd edition "invention"?
(cause thatīs one more rule I inevitably have to *bend*)
In the Realms, just about anything you can think of has been covered by some deity (with a few exceptions, like the fact that no Faerûnian deity covers mischief). And the gods have walked the Realms in recent memory. And they make a point of showing off their existence on a regular basis... So it'd be silly to pick a concept, instead of a deity. And any concept you pick will already be covered, so why not worship the deity that covers it? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Aina Grey
Acolyte
Austria
43 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2008 : 23:49:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aina Grey
thanks
more questions inevitably to follow...
and hereīs one more beginnerīs question to the Realms:
(I just got my FR campaign setting today )
clerics of a cause: why not in the FR?
always been that way, or is this a 3rd edition "invention"?
(cause thatīs one more rule I inevitably have to *bend*)
In the Realms, just about anything you can think of has been covered by some deity (with a few exceptions, like the fact that no Faerûnian deity covers mischief). And the gods have walked the Realms in recent memory. And they make a point of showing off their existence on a regular basis... So it'd be silly to pick a concept, instead of a deity. And any concept you pick will already be covered, so why not worship the deity that covers it?
cause I have a character in my "campaign" (see above) whoīs really self-centered and arrogant, to the point of worshiping herself as a "cause" to get divine spells
the gods will not like it...  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2008 : 01:23:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Aina Grey
cause I have a character in my "campaign" (see above) whoīs really self-centered and arrogant, to the point of worshiping herself as a "cause" to get divine spells
the gods will not like it...
I don't think I'd allow that, as a DM. If a person is not divine and or lacks divine sponsorship, then worshipping them will do nothing for someone. It's really kinda silly, thinks I. "I'm just so cool, I'll grant myself spells!" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 00:26:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think I'd allow that, as a DM. If a person is not divine and or lacks divine sponsorship, then worshipping them will do nothing for someone. It's really kinda silly, thinks I. "I'm just so cool, I'll grant myself spells!"
Seconded. I would allow a person to think she can give herself spells, but I wouldn't allow it to actually work. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Aina Grey
Acolyte
Austria
43 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 19:00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aina Grey
cause I have a character in my "campaign" (see above) whoīs really self-centered and arrogant, to the point of worshiping herself as a "cause" to get divine spells
the gods will not like it...
"I'm just so cool, I'll grant myself spells!"
you just coined the exact words Iīm gonna use
it *does* help of course that sheīs actually a goddess (though level 0) without knowing it, though, so technically it will still be a feat of willpower
I think in the Planescape setting there is some fraction in Sigil that uses a similar concept, donīt know the details though
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 02:40:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Aina Grey
you just coined the exact words Iīm gonna use
it *does* help of course that sheīs actually a goddess (though level 0) without knowing it, though, so technically it will still be a feat of willpower
I think in the Planescape setting there is some fraction in Sigil that uses a similar concept, donīt know the details though
Planescape isn't the Realms, though. Also, even if you are going to use the 3E rules regarding the children of a deity being DVR 0 quasi-deities (which in my humble opinion is rather dubious, as the Bhaalspawn were creatures of 2E), I still don't think Bhaalspawn would be able to grant spells, even to themselves. Of course, I could be wrong, as I haven't checked Faiths and Pantheons in a while.
That being said, it's your comic, and ultimately you can do what you want with it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Aina Grey
Acolyte
Austria
43 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 18:32:52
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yeah I said I would have to bend the rule, but Iīm still looking for loopholes to make it more true to the rules
my "Imoen" combines ideas from those two, (amongst others):
-Believers of the Source ("Godsmen"), who believe that each life is a test, and that every person has the potential to become a god
-Sign of One ("Signers"), who believe that the entire universe is a figment of someone's imagination; most of them are solipsists
while she follows the philosophy of the Godsmen pretty straight (without knowing about the faction though), her (possible) clerical powers will be powered by her own willpower and belief, in a way similar to the Signers; a problem is how to (not) tap the Weave in the process
about the Weave: how does magic work in the planes in the FR setting then? itīs kinda unlikely that e.g. Asmodeus or Demogorgon cast their magic via the weave, so what powers their any creatureīs magic in the planes?)
I will use the Planescape (= the 3rd edition canonical) planes in "my" FR instead of the ones in the FRCS (are they even different planes or just renamed for some reason?), so in my case Planescape is the Realms
I canīt see any major obvious contradictions in this solution, so please tell me if you can see any
thanks for your comments! |
Edited by - Aina Grey on 19 Feb 2008 18:33:48 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 21:07:46
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As far as I know, in the Forgotten Realms setting, everyone who casts divine magic does so because a deity is allowing them to. The "priest of a cause" concept might work in other settings, but that is explicitly not the case in the Realms.
Also, if I recall correctly, quasi-deities cannot grant anyone spells. If you want to go by what the rules say (as opposed to just ignoring them altogether), your character will need to have a divine patron to be a divine spellcaster.
That said, I think you've overlooked something interesting from the game--the PC will gain a minor spell after each dream he/she has (for a total of six). A PC who is inclined to do the goodly thing will receive spells having to do with healing, while a PC who is more on the selfish (or evil) side will receive offensive spells. As I said though, they are minor spells, nothing earthshattering (such as Cure Light Wounds). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 21:57:37
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Kind of switching the topic, but this concerns the canonity of the Bhaalspawn saga.
I was reading my copy of GHotR and saw that the events of BG1, BG2 and ToB are now included in the history. I thought that the BG series was considered to be non-canon before. Did WotC decide to change this? |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 22:12:28
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Kind of switching the topic, but this concerns the canonity of the Bhaalspawn saga.
I was reading my copy of GHotR and saw that the events of BG1, BG2 and ToB are now included in the history. I thought that the BG series was considered to be non-canon before. Did WotC decide to change this?
Nopers, some of the events have always been canon due to the Dragon articles and the novels adaptions. I'm still not sure why this has been so confusing and why it has been debated, wrongly, by some people, for about the past four or five years. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 19 Feb 2008 22:13:14 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 00:34:58
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I was reading my copy of GHotR and saw that the events of BG1, BG2 and ToB are now included in the history. I thought that the BG series was considered to be non-canon before. Did WotC decide to change this?
The novels are all considered "canon", as far as that's important. Also, Lost Empires (I think?) mentions the Bhaalspawn. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 00:45:55
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Indeed. The characters from the novels were statd up in DRAGON #262 for 2e and there is the Bhaalspawn template for 3e in DRAGON #288. There is also the sourcebook Ed wrote that complements the games/novels -- Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II. And various references in both PoF and LEoF.
Not to mention comments by Ed Bonny, Rich Baker, and Ed Greenwood that reference the canonicity of parts of these events. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 20 Feb 2008 00:48:00 |
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Aina Grey
Acolyte
Austria
43 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 11:03:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
As far as I know, in the Forgotten Realms setting, everyone who casts divine magic does so because a deity is allowing them to. The "priest of a cause" concept might work in other settings, but that is explicitly not the case in the Realms.
Also, if I recall correctly, quasi-deities cannot grant anyone spells. If you want to go by what the rules say (as opposed to just ignoring them altogether), your character will need to have a divine patron to be a divine spellcaster.
That said, I think you've overlooked something interesting from the game--the PC will gain a minor spell after each dream he/she has (for a total of six). A PC who is inclined to do the goodly thing will receive spells having to do with healing, while a PC who is more on the selfish (or evil) side will receive offensive spells. As I said though, they are minor spells, nothing earthshattering (such as Cure Light Wounds).
the whole point is that sheīs "breaking the rules", doing something that never happened before (maybe in the Netheril times?), and there ARE loopholes, like the infinite power of uber-Ao that easily could grant her any power (without her knowing, of course), "maybe" she isnīt an ordinary Bhaalspawn anyway
but like I said I merge Planescape and the FR, so things mustnīt be always 100%, though most of the time they are |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 11:29:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Aina Grey
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
As far as I know, in the Forgotten Realms setting, everyone who casts divine magic does so because a deity is allowing them to. The "priest of a cause" concept might work in other settings, but that is explicitly not the case in the Realms.
Also, if I recall correctly, quasi-deities cannot grant anyone spells. If you want to go by what the rules say (as opposed to just ignoring them altogether), your character will need to have a divine patron to be a divine spellcaster.
That said, I think you've overlooked something interesting from the game--the PC will gain a minor spell after each dream he/she has (for a total of six). A PC who is inclined to do the goodly thing will receive spells having to do with healing, while a PC who is more on the selfish (or evil) side will receive offensive spells. As I said though, they are minor spells, nothing earthshattering (such as Cure Light Wounds).
the whole point is that sheīs "breaking the rules", doing something that never happened before (maybe in the Netheril times?), and there ARE loopholes, like the infinite power of uber-Ao that easily could grant her any power (without her knowing, of course), "maybe" she isnīt an ordinary Bhaalspawn anyway
but like I said I merge Planescape and the FR, so things mustnīt be always 100%, though most of the time they are
Except that Ao doesn't have a thing to do with mortals, and he doesn't grant power to the gods. Divine power comes from worshippers -- so your chica granting herself spells shouldn't be able to give herself anything more than a handful of spells per week or so (because just how strong can the worship of a single person be, especially when she doesn't know she's worshipping a god?).
Quite frankly, this is not something most of us would even think of allowing in our games. Not only is the concept of a divine PC rather problematic, but it contradicts just about everything that is known about deities in the Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 18:57:23
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Yeah, I have to back up Wooly here. As I said before, it's your comic, so you can do what you want! But that doesn't mean I think it's a good idea. I realize that this comic strip is supposed to be comical (I did read some of it ), but I think giving your protagonist such power even in a comical story can be problematic, since I would tend to think it amounts to the author wanting to give his/her pet character an special edge that they wouldn't normally have (and in this case it's not even justified in the setting).
Besides, the star of the Bhaalspawn saga is already unique. They turn out to be the center of one of Alaundo's prophecies! And they also obtain what I mentioned before--six minor spell-like abilites they get after having certain dreams. After all that, why does your character need something to make her even more powerful? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Aina Grey
Acolyte
Austria
43 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 23:58:59
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nah, not comical (any more), experimental drama: everybody can say "Itīs not funny!", but nobody can say "Itīs not experimental!" hehe
think of Drawn Together, SunnO))), The Matrix, Illuminatus!; Gödel, Escher, Bach; Planescape: Torment, Burzum, Deus Ex, A Clockwork Orange and (of course) Baldurīs Gate brutally merged and youīll get a glimpse of what Iīm trying to do
(of course Iīm fully aware that of 100 random people exactly 0 would know ALL of those... and of 0 people exactly 100 would understand what Iīm trying to explain through it)
Also it is a love story (eventually). Also not. Also the opposite of anything I said.
back on topic:
Divine power comes from worshipers. Imoen whoreships herself. Ahem, worships I mean. So my incarnation of Imoen is very self-confident and pretty arrogant. So one day when she gets a level-up, she decides to take a level of cleric (as her 3rd level). Since she has no patron deity (possible in the Realms), and she wouldnīt ever want to subordinate to anybody, not even to a power as distant as a god, she decides to choose a principle/cause to fuel her divine fire. Here we encounter a problem. For some reason (I didnīt get yet) worshiping a cause isnīt possible in the Realms. So here comes my
evasion part I: Magic is powered in Toril by the Weave. Since Mystra is in full control of the Weave, and could technically grant its use to anybody, it is most likely that Ao demanded for things to work this way. What powers psionics? Maybe not the Weave. What powers Imoenīs quasi-clerical divine spells? Definitely not the Weave. So I donīt know yet how she will have done it (hehe) but she definitely will have found a different, also intuitive, way of casting magic, which is non-dependant on divine favors. She will believe itīs her willpower that powers her spells. She doesnīt have to be a goddess to succeed in this new way of casting. (After all, the FRCS says something like: Spellcasters in Faerun always tried to find new ways of handling magic.)
evasion part II: like I said, I will merge my Realms incarnation with the Planescape planes. Since the Planescape setting got united with Greyhawk in 3.x (and I use 3.5 for my comic), it is possible for plane inhabiting spellcasters to worship causes. Still not themselves, though. Since I donīt know enough background on Mystra and whether it could be possible to her to power the magic in all planes (which together form one "universe") and not be a divine rank 20+ uber-god herself, which she obviously isnīt, I would say that she doesnīt power plane magic. So it is possible that it is possible for e.g. angels to cast divine spells by worshiping the concept of good in such a universe. I fully understand that this universe wouldnīt be the canonical FR any more, but anyway: Thus, if it were
possible for plane-inhabiting spellcasters to worship causes, it would also be possible for Toril-inhabiting divine spellcasters, if not the law of Ao would forbid it. But the decree of a "planescape-
limited" Ao concerned only magic worked through the Weave/Shadow Weave (everpresent in the FR but not in the planes), because the likes of Asmodeus are most likely as powerful as old man Ao himself and wouldnīt have the uber-god meddle with their respective realms. So, consequently, in such a FR setting, it would be possible for FR spellcasters to cast divine spells without gods AND without the Weave/Shadow Weave.
So, to cut a VERY long story short, Imoen will maybe have discovered such a way of spellcasting.
Call it a "house rule"...
So what "makes" Imoen a cause: her exact words will be something like: I am my own god. and she doesnīt only say it, she proves it... (this is where we come back to the Sigil fractions I mentioned in my above post)
my CHARNAME, named like my username in this forum, will manage a similar feat: druid by nature worshiping instead of a nature god (which is much easier to justify)
so, does it really make them more powerful? maybe not
(THE TWO are more powerful than regular mortals, but thatīs because of their Bhaalspawn heritage, I just increased their "supremacy" from some poor spell-like abilities (which they will also get in my comic anyway) to 3rd edition quasi-godness)
does it make them more independant and "special"? definitely yes
is it very important? nah actually it ainīt
it will just later in the story be of inevitable importance that they donīt depend on gods
PS:
A wizard did it...
PPS: again, thanks for your comments! and Rino, thanks for reading my comic! with the right view on it you might even see that I actually *have* a point... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 00:30:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Aina Grey
back on topic:
Divine power comes from worshipers.
Only in part. Take Mystra for example. Ed has said "Mystra is the most powerful deity of the Faerûnian pantheon, by virtue of the fact that Toril is so overwhelmingly governed, sourced, and powered by magic." There's no question that worship is only part of what determines a god's power, since the order of most-worshipped gods isn't the same list as most-powerful. Just look at Waukeen, Shar and the other evil deities, Horus-Re, Lolth, and the elemental lords.
The question of what constitutes worship is largely moot because people tend to pray in proportion to their concerns and activities. For instance, almost all mages deliberately worship Mystra, and probably more than half give her primary devotion, including those of evil alignments, such as Manshoon.
In the end, there should be more to the power of the deities than just their worshippers. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 21 Feb 2008 00:33:56 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 01:04:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Aina Grey
PPS: again, thanks for your comments! and Rino, thanks for reading my comic! with the right view on it you might even see that I actually *have* a point...
You're welcome--I enjoyed Elminster so far. It's hard for me to not see it as a comedy, though, at least in part.
As for the god-like power, thing--again, in the end, it's your comic. Do as ye will. However, I still think overpowered characters tend to be obnoxious (moreso than they should be, anyway), so I'd be careful about that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Aina Grey
Acolyte
Austria
43 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 13:12:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Aina Grey
back on topic:
Divine power comes from worshipers.
Only in part. Take Mystra for example. Ed has said "Mystra is the most powerful deity of the Faerûnian pantheon, by virtue of the fact that Toril is so overwhelmingly governed, sourced, and powered by magic." There's no question that worship is only part of what determines a god's power, since the order of most-worshipped gods isn't the same list as most-powerful. Just look at Waukeen, Shar and the other evil deities, Horus-Re, Lolth, and the elemental lords.
The question of what constitutes worship is largely moot because people tend to pray in proportion to their concerns and activities. For instance, almost all mages deliberately worship Mystra, and probably more than half give her primary devotion, including those of evil alignments, such as Manshoon.
In the end, there should be more to the power of the deities than just their worshippers.
ahem, what happens to "the most powerful deity of the Faerûnian pantheon" again in 4th edition?  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 14:46:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Aina Grey
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Aina Grey
back on topic:
Divine power comes from worshipers.
Only in part. Take Mystra for example. Ed has said "Mystra is the most powerful deity of the Faerûnian pantheon, by virtue of the fact that Toril is so overwhelmingly governed, sourced, and powered by magic." There's no question that worship is only part of what determines a god's power, since the order of most-worshipped gods isn't the same list as most-powerful. Just look at Waukeen, Shar and the other evil deities, Horus-Re, Lolth, and the elemental lords.
The question of what constitutes worship is largely moot because people tend to pray in proportion to their concerns and activities. For instance, almost all mages deliberately worship Mystra, and probably more than half give her primary devotion, including those of evil alignments, such as Manshoon.
In the end, there should be more to the power of the deities than just their worshippers.
ahem, what happens to "the most powerful deity of the Faerûnian pantheon" again in 4th edition?
A low blow, considering how utterly nonsensical most of us find the Sellplague to be. 
But to answer your question, in the same spirit as you: the same thing that happened to Bhaal in 2E.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Feb 2008 14:46:55 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 15:26:59
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But wasn't Bhaal's situation a bit different than Mystra's? I mean, the ex-God of Murder lost all his worshipers due to Myrkul and Bane before he died.
EDIT:
Also, to add to Sage's post regarding the worship of Mystra, I don't believe that all Weave users actually worship the Goddess of Magic. They might pay her lip service and give offerings and donations at her church, but that doesn't make her their patron deity.
It's the same with Tymora, Mask and Umberlee. People drop a couple of copper coins when they pass Tymora's church to ask for good luck, and all thieves whisper a prayer to the Lord of Thieves whenever they attempt to go steal something because it's just a matter of respecting and recognizing their powers. In Umberlee's case, almost every sailor that goes out to sea prays to Umberlee for safe passage across her domain because we've all read about what happens if they don't (they get randomly attacked by a even more random kraken ).
So, I don't necessarily think a god's powers are totally depend on the number of worshipers, but also maybe on how much people believe in them. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
Edited by - DDH_101 on 21 Feb 2008 15:46:33 |
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Alaundos Prophecies and the Bhaalspawn
