| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Asharak |
Posted - 03 Dec 2022 : 20:59:24
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (2nd Edition) :
" ...there seems to be a 300-year cycle called the Rage Dragons, at the peak of which all dragonkind is affected..."
Dragons of Faerun (3rd Edition) :
"At other times (approximately every 300 years, but recorded intervals have ranged from 100 to 700 years), the Dracorage has affected all Faerűn, precipitating a full-blown Rage of Dragons."
So we have a Dragon Rage on average every 300 years.
With the first Dragon Rage occurring around 25,000 BC, there are roughly 70 Dragon Rages in Faerun's history, not counting the Dragon Flights.
The 100-700 year gap between each Rage gives a lot of latitude to place these events.
It seems to me that the repetition of such an event, even if irregular, should be quite structuring in the history of the Forgotten Realms.
In practice, all creatures / societies living on Toril should be aware of these recurring Rages.
This leads me to several questions (in no particular order):
- These Rages, given their magnitude, must leave in their wake destruction that cannot go unnoticed. What are and where are their traces/remains?
- How could such events be hidden from the collective memory?
- How could such events be obscured from recorded history?
- Why is there no more information about long-lived races like the elves?
- This should be the subject of many a ballad by troubadours and minstrels, if not the very heart of bardic oral tradition. Why is this not the case?
- What known events can be linked to this type of phenomenon?
- What are the reasons for this collective amnesia among all races?
I am curious to read your suggestions. And maybe other questions... |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 17 Dec 2022 : 02:51:01
I agree with keeping the good ideas of Fizban's. For instance, I like the idea of dragons being tied to the Material Plane. I've liked this idea since I read it in the 2e Draconomicon, actually. This could explain why dragons were susceptible to the primordials' control, as their elemental nature could have been easily influenced by the masters of the elemental creatures. We can even create some explanation for the Rage based on this lore. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Dec 2022 : 16:37:46
Yeah, I prefer the idea of SOME as well. I would also say that with dragons of this type, if they "die" their spirit is reincarnated in a new dragon egg. I also don't like the changing types of dragons between worlds, but I'm not against the alignment difference.
That being said, I wouldn't say that its necessarily first world.... I would say that a dragon that somehow ascends can send his spirit into other worlds, where he is rebirthed. The idea of the air dragons of Coliar advancing to a great age and then becoming "air dragons" that are incorporeal and can travel wildspace.... maybe they are ascending and they're sending out portions of their spirit to be reborn in new worlds. Maybe they then instill via some ritual a large portion of their power into something, and then if their spirits can get all their variations to "join" they can regain this power and their memories.... kind of like, but different, Tiamat did following the spellplague in the Untheric area where she split herself amongst 3 dragons |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 16 Dec 2022 : 14:49:04
Well as always their execution of an idea is sub standard.
The idea itself fits well with elder gods and aspects and the draconic gods themselves.
Take the nugget of usefulness WoTC accidentally created, and out of faeces we may make something better (depending upon your personal tastes of course) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Dec 2022 : 14:00:28
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
While I like the first world thing, the multiverse dragons initially sounded stupid. But, what if it only applies to the dragons from the first world. Much like the elder gods that can have duplicates all over the multiverse so can these elder dragons.
So what it really means is these elder dragons are able to create aspects anywhere and beings like Io, Tiamat, Bahamut, Garyx are all part of that group.
But that's not what they've said. They've made it so that all dragons are multiversal. And then they made it even weirder by saying "yeah, this dragon might be a CE red in one world, but could be a LG gold in another!"
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 16 Dec 2022 : 06:07:21
While I like the first world thing, the multiverse dragons initially sounded stupid. But, what if it only applies to the dragons from the first world. Much like the elder gods that can have duplicates all over the multiverse so can these elder dragons.
So what it really means is these elder dragons are able to create aspects anywhere and beings like Io, Tiamat, Bahamut, Garyx are all part of that group. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Dec 2022 : 03:41:27
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Of course, Paizo had the First World as a thing long before someone at WotC decided to run with it.
That idea in various forms has been around for a long damn time. I don't think Paizo can exactly take ownership.
I didn't say they created it -- only that they were there long before WotC.
Heck, the movie The One, with Jet Li, predates Paizo doing their First World thing -- and with their multiversal dragons nonsense, WotC is heavily ripping off that movie, too. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 16 Dec 2022 : 01:36:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Of course, Paizo had the First World as a thing long before someone at WotC decided to run with it.
This is a case of the original copying the copy.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Dec 2022 : 23:14:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Of course, Paizo had the First World as a thing long before someone at WotC decided to run with it.
That idea in various forms has been around for a long damn time. I don't think Paizo can exactly take ownership. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Dec 2022 : 19:08:46
Of course, Paizo had the First World as a thing long before someone at WotC decided to run with it. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 15 Dec 2022 : 18:38:37
Out of all the crap that 5e introduced I actually like the First World stuff the most as it provides a justification for my shattered universe theory where each world is a flawed copy of the original and is trying to recreate it.
So dragons appear / evolve separately on all the major planets of the spheres.
Also explains how we have 2 Banes in the lore. One is the Bane of the first world, and the Bane of FR is a flawed recreation. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 15 Dec 2022 : 18:26:55
Well, if we add 5e draconic lore, that may solve this particular issue. We know that dragons predate the current worlds of D&D, as they were denizens of the "First World". This is somehow supported by older lore (Mystara), which said dragons are really old creatures related to the draedens.
Perhaps the dragons enslaved by the primordials were the survivors of the destruction of the First World, unrelated with the new generation of dragons that were born in the new worlds.
Just a theory. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Dec 2022 : 15:36:43
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
<snip> I did always wonder if the dragon eggs falling in 1373 is also how the dragons originated in -31000. The question is did the eggs fall before the meteor struck or did they fall after. If it is after then we have the problem of how did dragons get to Abeir, but if it was easier to cross between worlds back then, then that problem is solved.
One thing to note, and I did not catch it initially. The Lore is this
"the tearfall/first sundering happened and dragon eggs rained down"
but also
"the primordials went to abeir where their dragon mounts turned against them"
So, there were dragons around PRIOR to the tearfall. What kind they were... unknown without further research of 4e lore.
I've also often wondered if the dragons were "mounts" in the traditional sense (i.e. were the primordials riding around on the backs of dragons).... or were the primordials "riding in their minds controlling them" and thus the primordials were no longer able to mentally control the dragons and the dragons didn't actually "kill" their masters in many instances, but rather just gained control of their faculties again. There are some references to physical fights between primordial and dragon, so at least in some instances they may have physically fought, but that may have been only after the dragon regained its controls and then hunted down the primordial. |
| Italian Archmage Karsus |
Posted - 08 Dec 2022 : 12:12:23
Yes, Ayrik, but that hibernation was only added in by Nexus because he anticipated a rage lasting waaaaay longer than normal. Karasendrieth's rogues go into no hibernation, and they still make it for longer than two months overall. I am trying to say, maybe no mitigation is effectively necessary, and metallic dragons can guard their hoards normally; they just have to be careful not to have any visitors (that they don't want to eat) for those two months. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Dec 2022 : 11:53:19
A sleeping dragon - in a state of unnaturally (or supernaturally) deep hibernation - is still unable to guard its lair and its treasure hoard.
Though if it should somehow be awakened into a magically-augmented bestial rage state then things would get very ugly for the intruder(s). |
| Italian Archmage Karsus |
Posted - 08 Dec 2022 : 11:28:45
With all of that said, I think back to the novel - in it, there were dragons that spent half the year prior to Karasendrieth's discovery without any Rage mitigations, and didn't seem to mind. Most Rages, every 300 to 700 years, were supposed to last maybe a month, or two in the most extreme case, as far as I recall.
So frankly I have the opposite view- if we know no particular mitigation is necessary to endure the Rages, would the dragons notice them as anything other than a time of extreme discomfort? (in which some of their peers celebrate the spirit of the season by ganging up on the tastier races of course) Way I see it, the dragons might've been caught unaware by the fresh mythal and gone instantly into pulping people, but for later Rages, the dragons should see it as less of a rampage and more of an incoming prison riot: they know things are going to get pretty violent for everyone, and will probably try to sleep it off unless they have some ulterior motive to participate in the "riot". (Some of those motives might be as underwhelming as boredom or having someone they want to shank in the confusion) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Dec 2022 : 10:09:35
It seems like a great opportunity to access a dragon's unguarded hoard. Or to prepare an ambush in its lair - against a dragon which will likely return exhausted, weakened, injured, and confused from its rage.
The Cult of the Dragon might be able to gain advantage over dragons in this way. Who knows what sorts of sinister scrying devices and enchanted traps they might place within the lair and the hoard.
Liches might wait for this opportunity to access desired magical treasures with little personal risk.
Adventurers might use this opportunity to rob a dragon's hoard. Or they might be hired as "guards" by dragons who are aware of the oncoming compulsions which will force them to take flight. Militias, armies, and mercenaries might be prepared for this rare chance to slay a dragon which has tormented their kingdom. Even timid scholars might dare to peek within a (temporarily) abandoned dragon's lair in the hopes of finding rare scrolls, tomes, and documents.
Indeed, even other races and monsters might attempt to slay or enslave a dragon this way. Imagine a dragon returning to its lair, fatigued, depleted, without any breath weapons or spells remaining - only to be caged within a dwarven siege work or to be confronted by an orcish war tribe or to be cornered by a dozen beholders, etc. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 08 Dec 2022 : 00:25:17
I think knowledge of Abeir was forgotten by Torilian dragons in the same way they forgot about the origins of the Rage itself. The Rage may have been responsible, actually. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Dec 2022 : 20:44:15
Well i've recently accepted gods visiting Toril in person so i may as well come to terms with Abeir in all its glory.
I would explain the reason we knew nothing about Abeir until 1400s because when the Tearfall happened it knocked Toril out of alignment with Faerie (in ancient times Faerie was in much closer connection with Toril than it is today).
So Abeir and Toril become closely linked instead and the dragons are able to cross over easily between the worlds. I did always wonder if the dragon eggs falling in 1373 is also how the dragons originated in -31000. The question is did the eggs fall before the meteor struck or did they fall after. If it is after then we have the problem of how did dragons get to Abeir, but if it was easier to cross between worlds back then, then that problem is solved.
Anyway, over time it became more and more difficulty to cross between Abeir and Toril and vice versa, in much the same way that Toril and Faerie became more distant over time.
So modern day dragons do not have that easy protection that dragons from millennia ago had.
Just a thought. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 07 Dec 2022 : 16:40:19
I know most don't like the concept here, but Abeir is another place dragons can escape to during the Rages.
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_redń
*It might explain Dragon Sleep. That is dragons go into deep, deep sleep so they can't wake up and Rage. I always liked the old BECMI dragon idea that dragons astraly protect themselves out in the multiverse to learn. A dragon can't rage if their mind is many planes away from their body.
Interesting enough, in the novels metallic dragons avoided the effects of the Rage by sleeping. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Dec 2022 : 21:15:14
I like that idea of a portal to Coliar. Since the planets are far apart, they may not even rage, as its when the comet approaches Toril. It could be pretty interesting if a lot of the cultures of Anchorome / Maztica which were very interested in the movements of stars in the sky, were interested because of dragon rages. If Coliar and its bird folk had portal(s) to Coliar in areas formerly held by the Aearee and they aided dragons by helping them get away, it makes for an interesting story for that continent. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 06 Dec 2022 : 19:52:44
The Dragon "rage" is a mess. They needed an "event" for the "a cool thing happens in the Realms Once a Year" idea from late 3X. And someone thought "Yea, Rage of Dragons!". Toss the name out there and "link" it to any lore that says "dragon" and their work is done.
The Flight of Dragons, from all the way back in 1E, was never really developed. Dragons attack sometimes....and that was it.
The 300 year Rage of Dragons will never make sense. There is no history in the game lore for this, and it just does not fit. How do any dragons even make it to old age? And there is no lore about the Rage of Dragons worldwide.
And if you want to "fit" this into some sort of Realms that make sense, maybe:
*It might explain Dragon Sleep. That is dragons go into deep, deep sleep so they can't wake up and Rage. I always liked the old BECMI dragon idea that dragons astraly protect themselves out in the multiverse to learn. A dragon can't rage if their mind is many planes away from their body.
*It is VERY possible that many dragons make Cage Caves for themselves for the Rage duration. A nice deep cave with a hidden exit with a simple combination lock will keep the Enraged dragon safe. No dragon wants to go into a mindless rage where they can be killed much more easily.
*Maybe an Ancient Elven Order that stops most of the dragons. Say, something like turning the dragons into stone for the Rage duration. So they round up a good 75% of the dragons so the world won't be obliterated.
*Maybe an Ancient dragon order doing the same thing. Made of non true dragons, of course. There is the Dragon Conclave, from the FR comic if you use that as cannon. That shows a loose ruling group of dragons that could do this.
*Lots of gods, not just dragon gods but I'd bet many elven ones could also stop the dragons.
*Maybe a massive cloud hides a portal to the planet Coliar where the dragons can "rage against the sky" for the rage duration, and then come back.
*And some....like the Chosen of Mystra...might say wiggle a pinky toe and freeze 10,000 dragon in time so they can't rage
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 06 Dec 2022 : 03:21:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've also had an issue with tying the Rages of Dragons to an elven mythal. It seems an odd choice -- "Hey, we'll weaken the power of dragons by turning them into murderous engines of destruction who will devastate our own homelands!"
That's like throwing a hand grenade at someone who just broke into your house -- yeah, you'll kill the intruder, but your home's resale value is going to take a serious hit.
You care about resale value only when you are not seriously threatened.
At this point there probably were not so many elves that occasional damage to their preferred habitats would make them sweat. And the dragons controlled the territories anyway.
But even beside that, it makes sense. At least once they commit and accept that the big showdown will happen.The dragons clearly are top dog here, their dominions are not openly contested, that's the whole point. From this point of view, serious slaughter is going to happen either way. o the real difference is whether the dragons will be an organized force hunting down the opposition, or will attack randomly and mostly destroy those who live near them (their offspring and servants) or each other. So why not? |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 06 Dec 2022 : 01:02:45
At this point, draconic genocide is less a murderhobo quirk and more a moral imperative. Nobody wants the the 300 ft. long flying murderlizards going on cyclical rampages. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 21:28:56
One idea too... there are many types of dragons that can do things to escape the dracorage. They can escape to other planes, etc... There's a LOT of different types of dragons in the world. What if the metallics and chromatics simply didn't have the numbers as other types of dragons for generations.... possibly BECAUSE of the dracorage killing them off. What if with the creation of the cult of the dragon, much more of the metallics and chromatics were surviving and KILLING OFF the other dragon types (i.e. red dragon becomes a dracolich... red dragon hunts down and kills gem dragons, lung dragons, amber dragons, dragon turtles, etc.... its red dragon offspring that haven't become dracoliches thrive and red dragons become more prevalent). At the same time, perhaps the "good" dragons were specifically setting themselves up when they felt the rage oncoming to be near an "evil" dragon's lair, and that too might have reduced the impact on other races. |
| Asharak |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 20:45:54
Many interesting things to think about...
But I come back on a point that intrigues me particularly, the absence of reference to any Dracorage except the first one and those of 1018 and 1373.
Although the fall of a kingdom having been destroyed following a Dracorage probably leads to the disappearance of the related archives, there should remain traces of this destruction in the archives of the neighboring kingdoms or peoples.
There should also remain ruins, and the story of this destruction should be peddled by the survivors or witnesses of the tragedy. And give birth to stories, then legends.
Unless what is called Dracorage is nothing more or less than simple Dragon Flights, the latter being the result of the efforts of the draconic spawn to limit the effect of the Kingslayer Star. This would have the advantage of explaining the lesser impact in the collective memory and the stories of the trouvčres.
It seems more plausible to me that an episode such as that of 1018 is the exception and that the 70 or so Dracorage supposed to have taken place between the first and the last (1373) are simply Dragon Flights.
Another possibility is that the elves worked to limit the impact of the appearance of the Kingslayer Star given the extent of the destruction caused by the first Dracorage. This was the sine qua none condition to allow them to establish their numerous kingdoms during the First Bloom.
One can even imagine, however unlikely it may seem, a joint effort of elves and dragons in this direction.
Here are some ideas... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 20:44:06
Also, just a thought on what I said earlier.... many of us have wondered "what's the difference between a primordial and a god", and we've had many discussions of that sort with the idea that being a god is simply "a template" that can be added onto other beings.... if what I'm proposing about dead gods floating bodies becoming comets, and comets often being primordials... it may be that a lot of "gods" are primordials with a god template, and when they die they lose the god template and are forced into a kind of "basic" primordial form that's just a comet. They "go to sleep" as a result, and possibly with some aid they can regain power... maybe even get a "god template" again eventually... but maybe they just become primordials. I know this needs a little work, but I propose it for consumption and possible fixing. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 20:36:17
Yeah, I totally get that what I'm saying would be a "retcon"..... I'm just more or less saying "if they are going to do this, let's take the idea and see if we can improve on something old"
Also, regarding "crystal spheres", I wouldn't necessarily rule out the idea that SOME "wildspace systems" are still surrounded by them. After all, in the new product there is Doomspace which "had" a crystal sphere created by its "primordials" and it's been shattered by "gods". In that instance the "primordials" created THAT crystal sphere to "shut out the gods".... so it had something akin to the Imaskari Godswall effect tied to it. Actually, for all we know, realmspace may not have had a crystal sphere surrounding itself prior to the Imaskari Godswall creation, though I don't favor that idea. I do however favor the idea that the crystal sphere may have existed during "the sundering" that supposedly created Abeir and Toril, and the "fact" that wildspace around realmspace doesn't have a crystal sphere now is maybe because it's shifted to being around Abeir (i.e. its not destroyed like with doomspace, its MOVED). The Abeiran "story" that the primordials "went to sleep" may in reality be that "many of the primordials left because they were no longer confined".... or it may be that when the primordials came to occupy this copy world, their dragon mounts were able to see and embrace their aspects in other worlds and became much more powerful .... or a mix of both....
But, essentially there may be crystal spheres surrounding other systems and these crystal spheres may give those "wildspace systems" access to a plane called the phlogiston that acts similar to but separate from the astral.
As to what is the "king killer star" .... possibly based on the name, it's the remaining body of Asgorath, who was slain by being sliced in half by Erek-Hus. Erek-Hus was "The King of Terror", and supposedly he was killed right after slaying Asgorath by Tiamat and Bahamut working together. So, if the "king killer star" is the body of basically a powerful draconic god .... I can see how the elves might be able to use that body to instill senseless rage into dragons when it comes near. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 18:37:56
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've got an issue with the Dracorages being tied to a comet... I know it's canon, but why the King-Killer instead of the Dragonbane or something like that? And just how is a celestial object tied into (and seemingly able to override) a dragon's emotional state, when no other celestial objects are able to cause any kind of similar effect? It makes me wonder if the King-Killer isn't a natural object...
Just a note with regards "comets" and a lot of the more current works ... comets are quite often associated with primordial beings. Why this is isn't delved extremely heavily at present mind you.
I will also note that gods, when they die, turn to stone in the astral. With there no longer being a "crystal sphere" surrounding wildspace system.... and with wildspace itself being considered somewhat in phase with the astral now.... well, I think you can see where I'm going here.
Yeah, but when the King-Killer Star and its connection to the Rage was introduced, the idea of anyone being affected by celestial bodies (aside from lycanthropes and the moon) was not an in-setting thing. (Primordials weren't a thing, then, either)
And also at that time, we still had crystal spheres.
So I know that my suggestion that the King-Killer Star could be the body of a dead power is problematic and would need some work -- but I think it's less problematic than "aside from lycanthropes, only one type of critter is affected by celestial objects, and those critters are the biggest, most powerful mortal critters anywhere, and it's only one celestial object that affects them, and boy, is it a freaking doozy!"
Maybe, instead, the King-Killer Star is some artifact, encased in glowing crystal, and cast into the heavens to keep it forever beyond mortal hands. Whoever crafted Dragorage Mythal tapped into the power of that artifact -- so it's not that the King-Killer Star does anything itself; it's just a battery. That's why Rages only happen when it's visible: it has to be close enough to tap into it.
(The King-Killer Star could also be a fragment of Zotha or the ice moon that caused to many issues, way back when. Or if you dig primordials, maybe it's an imprisoned one) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 18:21:29
Ooh, i like that idea |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 17:55:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've got an issue with the Dracorages being tied to a comet... I know it's canon, but why the King-Killer instead of the Dragonbane or something like that? And just how is a celestial object tied into (and seemingly able to override) a dragon's emotional state, when no other celestial objects are able to cause any kind of similar effect? It makes me wonder if the King-Killer isn't a natural object...
Just a note with regards "comets" and a lot of the more current works ... comets are quite often associated with primordial beings. Why this is isn't delved extremely heavily at present mind you.
I will also note that gods, when they die, turn to stone in the astral. With there no longer being a "crystal sphere" surrounding wildspace system.... and with wildspace itself being considered somewhat in phase with the astral now.... well, I think you can see where I'm going here. |
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