| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 29 Jan 2022 : 22:12:40
Found this new animated series on Amazon Prime today: The Legend of Vox Machina. I think it's great. Never really followed the Critical Role thing much, but might give it a check now.
Just a heads up, but it is not a cartoon geared for kids as it's more or less R-Rated. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 12 Feb 2022 : 21:30:36
I've started to watch it, and I'm surprised that they started in Emon with none of the southern lower level stuff. I have no idea what level they would have been when bumming around Emon, but it's still well pre-stream.
Very neat. Gonna edit this post if I have any opinions as it goes. |
| Scots Dragon |
Posted - 12 Feb 2022 : 20:03:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Also.... it's a pathfinder campaign. They weren't even playing D&D.
Pathfinder 1E is basically D&D 3.75. IIRC, it was even advertised as such, originally.
Given the alternative when Pathfinder released, it's very easy to argue that Pathfinder was more D&D than the actual then-current edition of D&D. I think some people might have memory-holed just how radically different 4th Edition actually was.
Our own LordOfBones also statted out some characters like Khelben and Manshoon and Larloch under Pathfinder 1st Edition rules. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Feb 2022 : 15:02:03
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I don't think people here are railing against the actors who created the characters, more that they're saying that including those things in a story creates a barrier that makes it hard for a lot of people to get into the story.
Yes, contractual obligations are understandable, and they can't be blamed on the actors or the DM, but the point remains that what we have now is far from quality storytelling.
With that said, I tried to watch the show again, and the part where they resolve conflicts from Percy's backstory seems a change in the right direction, if still kinda stereotypical. Regardless, I enjoyed the last couple episodes a bit (even though I admit that might very well be because I'm missing DMing TTRPGs, and seeing the group stick together to help one of its members with a personal problem gives me a good feeling).
Nailed it. I'm not interested in the live stream. I'm interested in the animated version, but that interest wanes every time they make some stupid out of character reference. Admittedly, its different when you're PLAYING with friends and they make some silly reference like that, because you are seeing your friend play at being a character. Its somewhat similar, when I play a foot tall kercpa squirrel wizard that's jumping onto the party half-orc barbarian's head to visibly threaten the lich that's talking about tearing the barbarian apart.... and I'm talking in a little squeaky voice about "You leave her alone! You don't want to provoke me! I will end you!"... people can't help but laugh. And later, when I tell said half-orc barbarian in an innocent way that I love her (as a friend) and will always protect her and someone makes a joke about a half orc and a squirrel, it will generate a laugh.... but that joke likely wouldn't actually happen in character. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 12 Feb 2022 : 03:28:58
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I don't think people here are railing against the actors who created the characters, more that they're saying that including those things in a story creates a barrier that makes it hard for a lot of people to get into the story.
Yes, contractual obligations are understandable, and they can't be blamed on the actors or the DM, but the point remains that what we have now is far from quality storytelling.
With that said, I tried to watch the show again, and the part where they resolve conflicts from Percy's backstory seems a change in the right direction, if still kinda stereotypical. Regardless, I enjoyed the last couple episodes a bit (even though I admit that might very well be because I'm missing DMing TTRPGs, and seeing the group stick together to help one of its members with a personal problem gives me a good feeling).
Psst. Go look up "no mercy percy" and see how that finishing scene outside where they first meet the Briarwoods played out live on twitch (I think with chat shown on stream at that point too?) at the table. It's fun to see the rest of the table react to Percy interrogating the carraige-boy.
Also, I don't know if Pike is shown during the Briarwood arc in the show, but if she does show up and it seems strange that's because of Ashley having to shoot a TV show for almost the entire history of CR as a stream and her appearances are as awkward as her disappearances due to the job in real life. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 12 Feb 2022 : 03:17:58
I don't think people here are railing against the actors who created the characters, more that they're saying that including those things in a story creates a barrier that makes it hard for a lot of people to get into the story.
Yes, contractual obligations are understandable, and they can't be blamed on the actors or the DM, but the point remains that what we have now is far from quality storytelling.
With that said, I tried to watch the show again, and the part where they resolve conflicts from Percy's backstory seems a change in the right direction, if still kinda stereotypical. Regardless, I enjoyed the last couple episodes a bit (even though I admit that might very well be because I'm missing DMing TTRPGs, and seeing the group stick together to help one of its members with a personal problem gives me a good feeling). |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 12 Feb 2022 : 03:02:49
Again..
the 4th level party there is primarily fresh new people, two of which have a very specific angle coming into this and one of those two is that bard.
Liam O'Brien and Sam Riegel had a podcast where they tried strange new things together each episode, and one of them was that first session of D&D. As in, they would go play D&D and then come on the podcast together, Sam and Liam, and talk about it. Instead of continuing their podcast, they decided to just play D&D with Matt and everyone every night. Thus meaning- they were stuck with their characters for the next five to seven years and beyond as unintentional mascots.
Vax and Scanlan were made up by completely fresh faces who actively engaged in the fact that they had no idea what they were doing. Sam specifically asked Matt what the worst character he could possibly play was, and Matt said "Gnome Bard". Sam playing this complete non-starter of a character was intentional as a thing among friends.
Years later they started streaming it and years later they finish the campaign and raise money to hopefully leave Geek & Sundry to make their own company. Then the fans fundraiser'd a stretch goal none of them expected to hit and they have to make an animated series about the great Vox Machina.
By the time the campaign ended, the tone of the game was dire and dramatic and played out like a soap opera. That was from almost a decade of them developing these characters. But when you're contractually obligated by fundraiser money to make an origin story you're going to have to show off these characters from before they were dramatic individuals and weer in fact total dumbasses played mostly by nervous and new players.
The show's obviously going to develop and change the characters and by the end of the show you're going to have that dire dramatic soap opera stuff that the fans of the late period of the campaign enjoyed. What show starts off with its cast fully developed? What low level adventurer has it all figured out?
They're not using any animations from the later part of the campaign in the advertising because it hasn't been animated yet. Goofball cast is the only cast animated and voiced currently, because the show is still being animated. They're not going to spend time animating spoilers just to convince an audience that the characters are going to get serious later on.
Were any of your first tables of D&D not ridiculous and potentially cringeworthy to outside viewers? Well, I know a hell of a lot of you probably have pretty insane old-skool first-table stories, and others were professionally inclined to literature and character building from the jump.
PS: this being said I have literally not watched any frames of the show or its advertising. However, I am actively watching their Third Campaign streams/vods each week. |
| Azar |
Posted - 12 Feb 2022 : 02:22:26
Thankfully, I did not exhume any deceased presidents. |
| Scots Dragon |
Posted - 12 Feb 2022 : 01:49:17
The series itself is thankfully a whole lot better than the trailer hinted at. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Feb 2022 : 23:55:05
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
I couldn't even make it through the trailer. It was like Adult Swim with an extra side of crass juvenility.
Kind of funny, adult swim is exactly what came to my mind as I watched it. I literally hate the gnome bard as they think he's funny and its such juvenile drivel. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 11 Feb 2022 : 16:13:26
That's a shame, some of the best animation came out of Adult Swim. But if it's not your taste, then that's fine. |
| HighOne |
Posted - 11 Feb 2022 : 16:08:41
I couldn't even make it through the trailer. It was like Adult Swim with an extra side of crass juvenility. |
| Azar |
Posted - 11 Feb 2022 : 04:13:55
Puerile. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 11 Feb 2022 : 02:54:09
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I got past the first 2 episodes, and I will say I'm glad they got over the childish references MOSTLY, and its starting to sound more like a D&D campaign converted to a cartoon (i.e. not like a story adapted to a cartoon, but reflecting spontaneous play).
Consider the attitudes of the players. As soon as you get to the Briarwoods you are now in the Stream era. There was THREE YEARS of campaigning between Liam and Sam's first ever session almost entirely as a joke to being heroes of the realm.
They quite literally have 'done a dungeons and dragons' between one episode starting and the next episode ending if I understand the episodes right and the Briarwoods are episode three.
They have stake in characters like Allura (who we see in the stream during the off-camera Quest Into The Underdark quest's wrap-up) and Gilmore and all these NPCs and their backstories in a way they didn't have before. To people who just got into D&D say, three years ago when Campaign 2 was starting, they would probably understand that feeling a lot if they themselves have completed a campaign at least once since they first heard of D&D/CR.
They WERE goofballs and amateurs when they started. "The Shits" as the party called themselves before 'saving the realm' were likely being dumbasses most of the time when not struggling desperately to not die. And as we can see from Liam recording a few videos of the pre-stream era (there are a few Vines) he is EXCITED and giddy during almost anything. He probably did all of Vax's edgy dark rogue stuff with a stupid grin on his face fighting giggles.
Three more years of D&D and three more years of Professional Voice Acting and they all have gotten the nervous shakes out of their system and they can ham it up as the professionals they are, while balancing the stupidity. It was the perfect time to stream their game.
One more thought. If the delivery of lines and the dialogue chosen in the first episode seemed restrained or caricatured or trope-heavy or blatantly referencing something, that's probably because that's what some people new to D&D might do and that's actually what they all did. Extremely basic character concepts can form into wondrous struggling flawed characters with time and effort, C1 is a by the books example of that- albeit the whole party is made up of professional voice actors which is to be remembered. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Feb 2022 : 14:07:23
I got past the first 2 episodes, and I will say I'm glad they got over the childish references MOSTLY, and its starting to sound more like a D&D campaign converted to a cartoon (i.e. not like a story adapted to a cartoon, but reflecting spontaneous play). |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 09 Feb 2022 : 13:15:45
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlaysI don't think pathfinder would have had any restriction on spells in a turn.
Pathfinder 1st edition was same as 3.5, one spell a round. 2nd Edition has it that spells cost actions, the number of actions depending (mostly) on the number of components for the spell. Most are somatic/verbal, so they take two actions out of your three action total (Haste grants an extra Move or Strike action). There are spells that are one action (Heal can be one to three actions, depending on ho you cast it) and spells that are even reactions (Feather Fall, so you can cast it even when it isn't your turn). If the spell has less than two actions, you can cast multiple spells in a round.
For instance, the witch in my game has a single action spell to do cold damage, so she'll usually cast the big spell and then that one as a follow-up if she doesn't feel the need to move. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 09 Feb 2022 : 02:58:50
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
The pre-stream home game was played in Pathfinder 1e. When they started streaming, they switched to D&D 5e, with some house rules (like around casting spells and drinking potions). But it's been 5e mechanically for as long as it's been online.
And yes, Patt, the first two episodes of this season deal with General Krieg, which was pre-stream. The rest of the season is doing the Briarwood arc. None of the other pre-stream or pre-Briarwood (i.e. Kraghammer and the first visit to Vassalheim) stories are currently being adapted. Though there are references, like Grog killing a bullette or Keylith throwing a duergar into lava.
Travis sure is taking Grog's time with the Dryad to his actual grave then huh. Man, are people going to be surprised when they go to watch the actual show for the first time and meet Tiberius.
Vax's late-game story always makes me forget that before they had access to Regenerate, he had a burnt-up toe problem from stepping in lava at the end of craghammer. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 08 Feb 2022 : 19:29:50
The pre-stream home game was played in Pathfinder 1e. When they started streaming, they switched to D&D 5e, with some house rules (like around casting spells and drinking potions). But it's been 5e mechanically for as long as it's been online.
And yes, Patt, the first two episodes of this season deal with General Krieg, which was pre-stream. The rest of the season is doing the Briarwood arc. None of the other pre-stream or pre-Briarwood (i.e. Kraghammer and the first visit to Vassalheim) stories are currently being adapted. Though there are references, like Grog killing a bullette or Keylith throwing a duergar into lava. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 03 Feb 2022 : 03:04:13
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I love Critical Role, and Vox Machina was where it all started. I'm not sure how I feel about the animated series yet, but for now, I'll keep watching. The first 2 episodes were a bit rough, but episode 3 begins one of the most famous arcs in Campaign One, so I'm excited to see how they do it. I'm not a huge fan of the animation style (reminds me of 80s/90s superhero cartoon), but as a Critter, I'll support it, unless I really do end up disliking it.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I love Critical Role, and Vox Machina was where it all started. I'm not sure how I feel about the animated series yet, but for now, I'll keep watching. The first 2 episodes were a bit rough, but episode 3 begins one of the most famous arcs in Campaign One, so I'm excited to see how they do it. I'm not a huge fan of the animation style (reminds me of 80s/90s superhero cartoon), but as a Critter, I'll support it, unless I really do end up disliking it.
Wait.. they're already into actual aired content? No more pre-stream?
SPOILER
You're telling me...they skipped Grog's near death, the Phylactery he had in him, Pike's Death, the Dread Emperor? The kid kyleth killed and regretted hundreds of episodes into the stream? The wand of tongues and the Clasp under Emon and Vex's deal with them and that whole body horror plotline with the theive's guild? Did they really throw out all that good stuff?! What the heck did they bother animating if not the highlights of pre-stream? The possession of the Soveriegn Uriel's family? Becoming heroes of the realm? Meeting the council? The first destruction of Allura's tower and the Magic Carpet?! Pike joining some freaking PIRATES and switching from a peaceful cleric to a War domain 5e cleric??? |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 03 Feb 2022 : 00:37:43
I love Critical Role, and Vox Machina was where it all started. I'm not sure how I feel about the animated series yet, but for now, I'll keep watching. The first 2 episodes were a bit rough, but episode 3 begins one of the most famous arcs in Campaign One, so I'm excited to see how they do it. I'm not a huge fan of the animation style (reminds me of 80s/90s superhero cartoon), but as a Critter, I'll support it, unless I really do end up disliking it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Feb 2022 : 12:54:47
Ok, so then I gather it's not based on 5e or pathfinder explicitly then, and they don't care, which is fine. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 02 Feb 2022 : 04:26:18
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Hi, context fairy.
There was a fundraiser (that broke records within hours of the kickstarter campaign opening) that iirc was to help the company and crew leave Geek & Sundry to make their own production hosue and rent a studio and put people on their own payroll. Travis (Grog) is the CEO of the new company since they left G&S.
They got millions of dollars in under 6 hours, more in the next 24. The fully animated series was a stretch goal as a "funny haha we will never get a million dollars" and then they got 8 million by the time it was all set and done, so they had to do all of their stretch goals.
I just want everyone to know that these 80's kids have to make the animated series (already totally funded within minutes) as a fundraiser oath. So they basically got to hire every individual person they could have wanted for the project and nobody to oversight them. They got to make their own thing- it didn't even need to make any money back because as I said- it was already funded years ago.
They actually played D&D for 3 years prior to streaming, and the entire campaign began because Liam and Sam (on an episode of their podcast) wanted to try out D&D as a thing they had never done before. So it's not like this story was pulled out of thin air- they are telling their pre-stream stories in whatever way they want and had boatloads of internal money to spend on it.
They literally had to make the cartoon and the cartoon literally doesn't have to contribute anything to anyone besides satisfy the backers. Though I'm sure there was oversight when they got far enough in pre-production to sign a deal to air the program on a mainstream platform.
Also.... it's a pathfinder campaign. They weren't even playing D&D.
Good to know, and they may not have incentive to carry it forward (not that it might not, nor would I be perturbed if it were). If it was all because "guys, we were paid to do this, if we don't want to have to pay back that cash, let's get started". That being said, the grey guy is a goliath, no? Or is there something in pathfinder that looks like that (or that's maybe an interpretation of a half-orc or something). I did note the blue dragon looked wrong, but that may be the Pathfinder look for said creature.
Their team published two books on the setting- the latter being better but still having quality assurance issues like having maps with what must be placeholder scales. When they converted to 5e there had already been the Elemental Evil adventure which introduced rules for Goliaths in 5e. As for dragonborn, yes the voice actor who plays Percy (The Gunslinger, a 5e Fighter subclass designed by Matt for conversion which pretty much only applies to Percy and his various guns with their own mechanics during the campaign) previously played a blue dragonborn caster of some kind if I recall correctly. Percy gets introduced later. The dragonborn of Exandria (setting) have an arbitrary split in their population between those who have tails and those who don't. One half are nobles the other are abused, and the abused hate the tail havers because of it- or something else. The Red Dragonborn- well...
Other artifacts of the conversion to 5e are magical items (Scanlan has what is effectively an arcane focus that, if he remembers to specify, gives him +2 to the DC of his bard spells and Vax has a belt that turns into a snake. As I suggested earlier (in small white text) they have encountered direct rips of magic and men from the Fiend Folio from 3.X.
Oh! And 5e's rule on only being able to cast twice in a turn if you have one of those spells being a cantrip* they instead allowed you to cast two spells in a turn as long as one of them is 2nd level or lower. I don't think pathfinder would have had any restriction on spells in a turn. So, YES this party will be using magic in WILDLY disjointed from what 5e players would expect. If someone complains about concentration or spells in a turn or otherwise while watching this show (that is assuming that they actually make any effort to show off a game-mechanic-faithful scene with their memories of how that event happened in the session, their animators may have been given none such advice or data) they are barking up the wrong tree on the wrong planet in the wrong solar system. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Feb 2022 : 12:20:06
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Hi, context fairy.
There was a fundraiser (that broke records within hours of the kickstarter campaign opening) that iirc was to help the company and crew leave Geek & Sundry to make their own production hosue and rent a studio and put people on their own payroll. Travis (Grog) is the CEO of the new company since they left G&S.
They got millions of dollars in under 6 hours, more in the next 24. The fully animated series was a stretch goal as a "funny haha we will never get a million dollars" and then they got 8 million by the time it was all set and done, so they had to do all of their stretch goals.
I just want everyone to know that these 80's kids have to make the animated series (already totally funded within minutes) as a fundraiser oath. So they basically got to hire every individual person they could have wanted for the project and nobody to oversight them. They got to make their own thing- it didn't even need to make any money back because as I said- it was already funded years ago.
They actually played D&D for 3 years prior to streaming, and the entire campaign began because Liam and Sam (on an episode of their podcast) wanted to try out D&D as a thing they had never done before. So it's not like this story was pulled out of thin air- they are telling their pre-stream stories in whatever way they want and had boatloads of internal money to spend on it.
They literally had to make the cartoon and the cartoon literally doesn't have to contribute anything to anyone besides satisfy the backers. Though I'm sure there was oversight when they got far enough in pre-production to sign a deal to air the program on a mainstream platform.
Also.... it's a pathfinder campaign. They weren't even playing D&D.
Good to know, and they may not have incentive to carry it forward (not that it might not, nor would I be perturbed if it were). If it was all because "guys, we were paid to do this, if we don't want to have to pay back that cash, let's get started". That being said, the grey guy is a goliath, no? Or is there something in pathfinder that looks like that (or that's maybe an interpretation of a half-orc or something). I did note the blue dragon looked wrong, but that may be the Pathfinder look for said creature. |
| Azar |
Posted - 01 Feb 2022 : 11:19:29
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Also, as someone elsewhere noted, there's the observer effect to factor into the equation.
What do you mean by observer effect? When you say observer effect, I think of observers altering the outcome of something because observation is an interaction, but Idk how to apply it here.
People tend to behave differently when a camera is pointed their way. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 01 Feb 2022 : 08:57:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Also.... it's a pathfinder campaign. They weren't even playing D&D.
Pathfinder 1E is basically D&D 3.75. IIRC, it was even advertised as such, originally.
Absolutely, and Matt definitely sold it to Sam and Liam as such. Just something I needed to say before people break out the ACKSHULYs on the series for non WOTC things.
Spoiler alert: A few key items and character(s) from the Book of Vile Darkness 3.X make an appearance in the pre-game campaign. If they show up in the animated series that would be crazy. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Feb 2022 : 04:51:59
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Also.... it's a pathfinder campaign. They weren't even playing D&D.
Pathfinder 1E is basically D&D 3.75. IIRC, it was even advertised as such, originally. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 01 Feb 2022 : 03:20:04
Hi, context fairy.
There was a fundraiser (that broke records within hours of the kickstarter campaign opening) that iirc was to help the company and crew leave Geek & Sundry to make their own production hosue and rent a studio and put people on their own payroll. Travis (Grog) is the CEO of the new company since they left G&S.
They got millions of dollars in under 6 hours, more in the next 24. The fully animated series was a stretch goal as a "funny haha we will never get a million dollars" and then they got 8 million by the time it was all set and done, so they had to do all of their stretch goals.
I just want everyone to know that these 80's kids have to make the animated series (already totally funded within minutes) as a fundraiser oath. So they basically got to hire every individual person they could have wanted for the project and nobody to oversight them. They got to make their own thing- it didn't even need to make any money back because as I said- it was already funded years ago.
They actually played D&D for 3 years prior to streaming, and the entire campaign began because Liam and Sam (on an episode of their podcast) wanted to try out D&D as a thing they had never done before. So it's not like this story was pulled out of thin air- they are telling their pre-stream stories in whatever way they want and had boatloads of internal money to spend on it.
They literally had to make the cartoon and the cartoon literally doesn't have to contribute anything to anyone besides satisfy the backers. Though I'm sure there was oversight when they got far enough in pre-production to sign a deal to air the program on a mainstream platform.
Also.... it's a pathfinder campaign. They weren't even playing D&D. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Jan 2022 : 14:33:30
I watched it. It was enjoyable as a gamer. I will probably continue to watch it, at least to see where it goes because I like D&D. I will say though that when you say "R-Rated" I'd say it goes beyond that, with all the references constantly to sexual innuendo (I swear there was barely a minute that passed without something, and no I'm not going to go into all of it, nor do I plan to argue about it). To be clear, I enjoyed shows like "The Boys" on amazon, and Amazon has done some really interesting cartoons taking a new direction on a lot of classic ideas. This seems so much more childish than even that, like a 13 year old who has just learned about sex and needs to crack jokes constantly. Admittedly, I have been in games that acted this way, and generally I got tired of the people doing it. I'm not saying its horrible that they did this. I'm really more putting this out there of, if you don't want your kids to see this kind of thing, be careful. It's extremely blatant, though they think they're being coy or cute, when sometimes it just makes me want to roll my eyes and go "how old are you?". To each their own. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 31 Jan 2022 : 02:54:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Watching people play a game, if you don't know the game, you're not going to get everything and you're not going to be as interested.
You can, if the game is about telling a story and people interacting with each other by pretending to be different characters. The game becomes secondary--after all, all the dices do is telling you whether you succeeded at something or not, and that's stuff that everyone can understand. Heck, the purpose of the rules is to facilitate storytelling, it's not like the actors suddenly start playing a Warhammer game whenever a fight starts.
It's not the same as watching esports like Starcraft, League of Legends, or whatever, where the show is ABOUT the game. The show here isn't about the game, the game is an extra. A point could be made that D&D determines classes, powers, and the likes, but those things are easily understood without knowing the game, because the game just provides rules for commonly understood concepts like throwing a fireball. You don't have to know D&D to understand what spells do, if the actors describe the effects.
quote:
And you can watch people interact in a lot of ways that don't involve D&D. Like TV shows and movies, for example.
Right, but watching a movie doesn't provide parasocial engagement, and watching a movie and watching streams aren't mutually exclusive. What I'm saying is that streams that have rather known people interact with each other and tell a story full of drama for the audience's entertainment (aside from their own) are going to be quite effective due to the nature of the engagement.
It's taking a well known successful formula and applying it to a D&D game. The actors and their interaction will draw people, and will make them curious about D&D.
quote:
You can't build a successful stream on something if people aren't interested in it.
You can, if people are already interested in *you*, if you have already built your influence. You may say: "why use D&D, then?" Idk, maybe they were just passionate about it (CR had a less professional presentation at the beginning, AFAIK), maybe they saw potential in it and wanted to invest in it. This could be quite likely, given that D&D had gained some visibility. On that note, I never said that D&D was irrelevant before the streams, but that the streams made it explode in a very short time like no other thing could have, due to parasocial engagement. The popularity that D&D gained over 20+ years is little, compared to what it gained in the latest few years, and that was due to engagement.
quote:
I'm not going to go any further, though, because I think it best we drop the topic and let other conversations happen.
Fair enough. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Jan 2022 : 02:02:09
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Again, people aren't going to watch the streams if they're not already interested in D&D. They wouldn't even know about them if the popularity wasn't already there -- people don't stream paint drying or clipping their nails or things like that because it's not popular enough to attract an audience.
No one is saying "I'm going to watch a D&D stream!" if they haven't heard of D&D.
I'm going to question this. Just like people can read D&D novels without giving half a crap about D&D, they can watch D&D streams without giving half a crap about D&D. I played a D&D videogame (NWN) without even knowing what the hell D&D was (and after playing that game, I wanted more videogames like that, not to play D&D, btw). There are many ways to come across streams like CR, especially in this era of everything being connected, and especially when the streams are led by notorious people.
Heck, Critical Role might even be more popular than D&D itself. Why? Because it's the people and their interactions that grab the audience, not the game itself. People are after stories and the parasocial stuff, not after dice rolls and "ohh, I do 8d6 damage!!!11!" (that kind of stuff can even hamper your storytelling; nothing like a critical moment in a story being interrupted by having to roll dices and add them together). Tabletop games aren't fun to watch, they're boring af. What's fun to watch--and therefore makes popularity spikes--is the interaction between people. That's what the audience wants in a story, show, and so on, because that's what our "domesticated brains" love. In turn, that leads to the mimetic nature of human desire kicking in, because those streamers become sort of "models" of what's good to want, and this leads the audience to try D&D. Any other form of D&D-related entertainment won't lead to a popularity spike as huge as those streams (heck, it can even lead people to want more of that entertainment and not even try D&D, like it happened to me with NWN), because of the lack of parasocial engagement and of the use of mimetic desire to your advantage.
All of this is to say that fantasy movies and VGs spiking in popularity wouldn't necessarily lead to D&D doing so, because D&D is not a movie of VG. It can't offer the kind of flow that those do: it requires a lot of work, and has mechanics that pose obstacles to storytelling, rather than enhancing it, and on a large scale people are far more likely to want to try more pre-pacakged fantasy entertainment, rather than D&D. Fantasy being popular alone can help D&D, but can't make it explode, you need something else that draws people and that they can associate D&D to. Remember that all the factors that you mentioned have been a VERY slow burn thing (over 2 decades). Meanwhile, those streams made D&D explode overnight in comparison, precisely because of the parasocial factor.
I don't even know how the ratio of people who got into critical role because they had already heard of D&D vs. people who got into CR because "ohh, what are those famous people doing over there?" looks like. Even if someone got into CR because they had heard of D&D, they probably only got into D&D because of the show.
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And while you say "that could be applied to any TTRPG or fantasy in general, not just D&D," that's not really true. Except for a brief period during the 4E era, D&D has always dominated the TTRPG market. Generally, they've dominated the market to the point that sales of all other TTRPGs together don't match D&D sales.
Many people don't even know other RPGs exist, aside from D&D. Heck, when I got into D&D, I didn't know about other RPGs at all until I bought my first issue of Dragon and saw them mentioned there.
For non-gamers, D&D is the only RPG they know of, and anything that's fantasy that they encounter is going to be compared to D&D. You mention Pathfinder or RuneQuest or Warhammer or Mork Borg to a non-gamer, you're getting a blank stare, until you say "It's like D&D."
It's kinda like the conflation between a single dominant brand (or small number of dominants) and the generic product. People don't ask for a cotton swab, they ask for a Q-Tip. They don't put an adhesive bandage on their minor wounds, they put on a Band-Aid. No one asks for a soda, they want a Coke or Pepsi. And that's the position D&D has: if it's a tabletop RPG, it's D&D.
Honestly, I think a large part of D&D's continued success isn't that it's a better system or anything like that, it's the name recognition and market dominance. Not saying that the rule system is any better or worse than any other, I'm just saying that when you've dominated your market for decades and your brand is synonymous with that market, that tends to drive sales your way and not to your competitors.
I didn't mention only other TTRPG, but other fantasy-related entertainment. Like I've already said, if people like fantasy movies and videogames, you don't grab them by offering an inferior version of what they already have. That's why 4e failed. If anything, all the factors you mentioned would lead to more fantasy movies, books, and VGs being released, more than affecting D&D specifically. You grab people by offering stuff that they can't get otherwise, by actively engaging them, and showing them how your product looks like at its best. As I said, WotC has constantly failed at this. CR and the likes did that for WotC.
Question it if you will, but there's a huge difference between reading a novel inspired by D&D and watching people play it. You can read that novel without knowing a thing about the game and you'll not have any issue understanding everything in it. Watching people play a game, if you don't know the game, you're not going to get everything and you're not going to be as interested.
And you can watch people interact in a lot of ways that don't involve D&D. Like TV shows and movies, for example.
You can't build a successful stream on something if people aren't interested in it.
I'm not going to go any further, though, because I think it best we drop the topic and let other conversations happen. |
| Azar |
Posted - 31 Jan 2022 : 01:28:33
quote:
Heck, Critical Role might even be more popular than D&D itself.
An overly commercialized and phony fantasy of how D&D works? Man, I hope not. |
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