| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 24 Nov 2011 : 20:39:47
I've always been intrigued with those that have been pulling strings from behind the scenes to manipulate events on a grand scale. Who do you guys think are some of the biggest Masterminds and Manipulators in the Realms?
My thoughts....
Biggest Mortal Manipulators and Masterminds:
Manshoon - persistence personified
Elminister- master of benevolent manipulation?
Biggest outsider/divine Manipulators and Masterminds:
Cyric ..pulled of the improbable
Asmodeus- most calculated and conniving being in the realms?
Vecna...Always has a one up on just about anyone?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Aes Tryl |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 01:02:27
@Jakk
Interesting top 5. But Larloch and Halaster are very rarely involved in real world affairs and their schemes are pretty blatant most of the times. Ie How Priamon "Frostrun" Rasek and the rest of the Twisted Rune got the jump on Halaster. Halaster has always seemed a bit more heavy handed in the use of his power. And Larloch, as I have mentioned previously, is normally so introspective and focused on his own research that he doesn't bother manipulating anything much. The one major gambit we do hear about (blueflame ghosts and the Imprisoners) had already been traced to it's source and took the express forbiddance from Mystra herself to allow that plan to blossom into fruition anyhow. That doesn't really smack me as being a mastermind tbh
Also the only reason, I think Manshoon gets so many mentions is cos he is a cockroach and makes liberal use of the "clone" spell. If he hadn't, most of his schemes and far reaching influences would have been moot. Kinda like a one-trick pony or a specific schtick PC character (whose DM would probably have banned the clone spell after that)
@Lord Karsus
Yeah Semmemon is a player! He's played all sides (including Manshoon) and eventually managed to end up right where he wanted, through dint of intelligence, scheming and desperation. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 22:13:34
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Seethyr, you don't know how much respect you just gained in my eyes for mentioning Malkzid. I would actually place him above Sonneillon, but for reasons that are currently under NDA (muhahahahahahaha)
*cough*
So... will the NDA on Malkizid be resolved with something seeing print within this decade, or is this yet another case of "grit your teeth, make it up for yourself, and hope you guess right"? (Which philosophy, btw, seemed to be the underlying theme of the present (outgoing) edition...)
Anyway... Larloch, Halaster, Manshoon, Mask, and Mystra are my top five. Khelben, Elminster, Shar, Szass Tam, and Asmodeus round out my top ten. I would give honourable mention to Malkizid, who might edge out Asmodeus depending on what Mr. James is referring to... but we'll probably not find out within our lifetimes without becoming WotC employees. Or so I've come to believe when it comes to any of the "big, burning questions" of the Realms. As I've recently asked Ed, what good are all these layers of manipulation and detail if nobody is ever allowed to see them without working for the Company? (And I use that capital "C" deliberately there.)
Edit: I agree that products must be planned in advance, and we don't want clashes between old lore and new lore... but we've had far more issues with the latter since RSE-mania began, with nothing to do with the writers or keeping secrets from the fan base. It's all about research... if you don't like doing research, you shouldn't be working on the Realms, and if you want to work on the Realms, learn to deal with the research. As DMs, it's our choice to pick and choose from past canon; as shapers of that canon, I respectfully suggest to those who would do so (and have done so) with less sensitivity that it's not their call to make. My ideal FR supplement would consist of Ed's notes, even if the handwritten stuff is just scanned, not even retyped, and as many pages of them as you can legibly fit into one book. Of course, not having seen Ed's handwriting, I realize there's a possibility that I've bitten off more than I can chew there... but that brings me back to topic. The single biggest mastermind in the Realms of all: Ed!  |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 19:41:00
-Wow. I can't believe we're two pages in, and Sememmon has not been mentioned once.  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 00:44:33
Szass Tam deserves an honorable mention for outsmarting a bunch of (mostly) competent zulkirs and tharachions. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 13:52:53
Elaith is a pretty good manipulator of people. He has built an empire from nothing in Waterdeep albeit a criminal one. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 10:17:31
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Biggest Mortal Manipulators and Masterminds: [...]
Manshoon - persistence personified
He's certainly ambitious, but his organization ends up as a sinkhole of incompetence infiltrated by everyone who bothered to. Manshoon himself was splattered again and again, using up a lot of those Stasis Clones.
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Elminister- master of benevolent manipulation?
Quite good, but not quite "mortal" - and as a semidivine being, almost supposed to play such games.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Khelben.
In semidivine league again. Even then, Blackstaff is good at direct confrontations and occasionally pulls something sneaky, but... he's too heavy-handed too often. And not all that good at being on top of the situation even with the Western branch of Harpers and later Moonstars as a spy network.
As to manipulations as such, remember his confrontation with Lhaeo in Lands of Intrigue? Heavy-handed plunge into unknown again. Of course, Haedrak himself is exceptionally sneaky and well-trained, but still.
Slarkrethel, if we count semidivines - and he had an impressive resume before he was "adopted".
Shoon VII definitely deserves a mention.
Inselm Hhune may count too. He had a lot of setbacks, but always was ridiculously deft with damage control and seems to be unsinkable. Haedrak III managed to get him somewhat under control, but still had to keep the old double-dealer close and on a high position - however dangerous, he's way too powerful and useful. |
| Aes Tryl |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 09:21:25
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Thank you, Scribes. That's what I got from the wiki. I thought there may be more.
I am not so up to date on my Dragon magazine resources, so the more knowledgeable scribes, of which there are many in Candlekeep, would probably know better 
But having gone and pulled out my Champions of Ruin, I do feel that the Malkizid entry has a most comprehensive breakdown of the archdevil/yugoloth lord's background, motivations and goals. It has more info than the forgotten realms wiki provides. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 09:16:18
Thank you, Scribes. That's what I got from the wiki. I thought there may be more. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 08:48:12
Afaik there is not much info about him. I guess the Grand History and the Last Mythal Trilogy are your best chances |
| Aes Tryl |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 08:42:14
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
If I wanted to know everything there is to know about Malkizid, where would my reading begin?
The sourcebook, Champions of Ruins has a whole entry devoted to Malkizid. Also there is a trilogy of novels by Rich Baker which has Malkizid as the primary antagonist, the trilogy being the Lost Mythal trilogy. I am not sure if the Lost Empires of Faerun has any info on Malkizid though (cos he was a major influence on the Vyshaanti elves of Aryvaandar) as Wendonai was a major corrupting influence on the Illythiiri. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 08:22:31
If I wanted to know everything there is to know about Malkizid, where would my reading begin? |
| Aes Tryl |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 07:36:58
Oh no love for Wendonai? If Malkizid played the Vyshaan like an elven minstrel, then surely Wendonai webbed up the rest of the Ilythiiri in fine spidersilk. He also played Elisstrae, Qilue and Cavatina quite masterfully (even though I dislike the entire trilogy as a whole).
On a sidenote, Lloth really played everyone for a fool. From Malkizid and Wendonai, to the other deities of her pantheon and beyond. Too bad Corellon seems to always one up her.
P.S Thread Necromancy >=). The Hand of Vecna strikes again! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 14:56:15
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Oh, I didn't know that. If it was mentioned in Blackstaff, I totally forgot. Was Priamon the only "unwanted sheep" in the Twisted Rune?
Page 297 of Blackstaff notes Khelben's aid from the Rune.
As far as I ever planned/thought, Priamon was the only one drummed out of the Rune simply because he raised their visibility too high and made them a target--something at which they excel at avoiding. After all, if people don't even recognize you're there pulling the strings, they don't notice the strings either. 
Steven
who now has Bela Lugosi babbling in his head....gee thanks for that, Ed Wood....
I see. Thanks, Steve. That's a logical resort for the Twisted Rune, I believe. Though, if they deemed Priamon to be of great value, they could have just "forced" him to change his identity or fake his death to cover his tracks. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 13:59:06
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Oh, I didn't know that. If it was mentioned in Blackstaff, I totally forgot. Was Priamon the only "unwanted sheep" in the Twisted Rune?
Page 297 of Blackstaff notes Khelben's aid from the Rune.
As far as I ever planned/thought, Priamon was the only one drummed out of the Rune simply because he raised their visibility too high and made them a target--something at which they excel at avoiding. After all, if people don't even recognize you're there pulling the strings, they don't notice the strings either.
Steven
who now has Bela Lugosi babbling in his head....gee thanks for that, Ed Wood.... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 07:37:24
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
I think the answer would be easier if we would see
more of these grand manipulators in print. We really don't
have enough to go on for some of these names.
My sentiments exactly...for Larloch. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 04:24:54
I think the answer would be easier if we would see
more of these grand manipulators in print. We really don't
have enough to go on for some of these names. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 03:33:12
Oh, I didn't know that. If it was mentioned in Blackstaff, I totally forgot. Was Priamon the only "unwanted sheep" in the Twisted Rune? |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 02:33:09
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
The Twisted Rune, from what little we know of their intentions.
Frostrune, one of their members, fell prey to Khelben's manipulation. But then again, that's just one member out of the many. And it's likely that the cohesive, manipulative effort of their entire cabal is more far-reaching, well-cloaked, and intricate than their individual goals.
True on both parts, Dennis, but a tiny bit incomplete.
Part of the reason why Khelben had less trouble than he might've normally in herding/manipulating Priamon Rakesk was the tacit (and hidden) aid of his fellow Twisted Rune members....culling him from their number without any direct effort on their parts.
Steven |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 01:50:30
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
The Twisted Rune, from what little we know of their intentions.
Frostrune, one of their members, fell prey to Khelben's manipulation. But then again, that's just one member out of the many. And it's likely that the cohesive, manipulative effort of their entire cabal is more far-reaching, well-cloaked, and intricate than their individual goals. |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 23:32:46
The Twisted Rune, from what little we know of their intentions. |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 19:47:41
Let's not sell Jarlaxle short. He merits a place on our list of manipulators.
While Szass Tam is superb at issues within Thay and playing his fellow Zulkir like finely tuned fiddles, and may have sights set outside the borders, Jarlaxle, by comparison, has several manipulative campaigns under his belt. At one time, encompassing nearly the entire span of the Sword Coast in their planning, setup, and execution. Not to mention, the fact he necessarily grew up as a master of plotting, misdirection, and intrigue with his roots in Menzoberranzan. At one point, wasn't it suggested that he had a plot in place to manipulate several of the great houses and that House Baenre (the ruling house at the time) would not necessarily approve of it?
The way that LS described him above as '...skips in, schemes his way through a place, then prances out again, laughing all the way....' had me laughing to myself and thinking that he is far to successful for that to be random chance or luck. He is clearly a master planner and manipulator to most always have things work out to his advantage. And along with that line of thinking, wouldn't a true master of manipulation, in addition to setting events up in such a way to provide opportunity for him/her to profit, also have the skill of being able 'go with the flow' if despite months of careful planning and preparation, one mistep by a key player could throw all that planning out the window? Schemes within schemes. (/speculation on) Maybe he's someone's Chosen? Someone who is known for schemes within schemes. (/speculation off)
Still, this is a great discussion able to be adapted and used to generate tons of plot points.
Good Hunting,
Wolfhound |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 15:35:10
good point  |
| Lady Shadowflame |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 14:27:31
Somewhere a bit further down the list, Jarlaxle. He manipulates all kinds of things. That trick he pulled with King Gareth Dragonsbane of Damara? Spectacular. He basically skips in, schemes his way through a place, then prances out again, laughing all the way at the chaos and confusion he leaves behind.
I don't think doing it for the lulz makes him any less manipulative. |
| Sandro |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 07:46:16
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
El, definitely. He's been manipulating the people of Cormyr for centuries, after all- particularly the crowned heads....
I guess it depends on whether you want to grant more credit to El, who perhaps did more discernible manipulation over a shorter time, or to guys like Larloch, Halaster, the Terraseer et al. whose methods are more subtle and far-reaching (and therefore of less visible impact to the Realms themselves) and yet have been orchestrated since long before El was the last prince of Athalantar, let alone the Sage of Shadowdale. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 01:03:56
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It's not canon, so I won't go into too much detail, but this is a subplot in the 4e FR campaign I'm running now. Wherein the PCs get to see the endgame of Larloch's long-running schemes, which they might thwart--or might allow or even help, depending on how one looks at it.
Actually, Erik, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear more about this campaign, when you have the time. Either as a PM or email, if you're concerned about some of your players maybe reading particulars about the subplot here at Candlekeep.
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| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 28 Nov 2011 : 23:25:57
El, definitely. He's been manipulating the people of Cormyr for centuries, after all- particularly the crowned heads.... |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 28 Nov 2011 : 17:55:42
I like manipulator villains, as evidenced by my work. If you know who I'm talking about, trust me, you'll see more of him.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Ed's answers imply that Larloch MAY have some plots, but if he does, they're so wide-reaching, complicated, and clandestine that virtually no one in the Realms [including the Chosen] knows what they are.
One of his current [pre Spellplague, I'd presume] 'plots' revolves around controlling portals and portal networks throughout Faerūn. He's looking at controlling the gates indirectly.
Pre- and Post-Spellplague, actually.
It's not canon, so I won't go into too much detail, but this is a subplot in the 4e FR campaign I'm running now. Wherein the PCs get to see the endgame of Larloch's long-running schemes, which they might thwart--or might allow or even help, depending on how one looks at it.
Cheers |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 28 Nov 2011 : 16:44:14
Indeed! |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 28 Nov 2011 : 15:14:37
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
How about the local tavern owner.
Lots of stuff start in the Taverns and Bars of the Realms.
and in Skyrim |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Nov 2011 : 10:09:37
Nah. They're merely contacts. In other words, pawns. |
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