| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 25 Sep 2011 : 15:28:06
After the destruction of Mulhorand by the Spellplague, the Mulhorandi pantheon disappeared. Where are they now?
In the novel Unclean, there's a brief mention of Horus-Re and his shattered temple in Delhumide. Such small place still exudes the lingering power of Horus-Re, which is anathema to undead. So clearly, he's still around somewhere, able to extend a portion of his divine power to Toril. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Nov 2011 : 23:58:46
I had another long post here, with all sorts of Wiki-links to support my argument about convergent evolution (as opposed to parallel), but I realize that we are really just splitting hairs here. You and I are on the same page 95% of the time. I think the only point we really disagree on is that I feel there was a single, common source for everything, and you believe there were multiple sources - one for each single thing. On the whole planer cross-pollination thing we are in complete agreement.
@Arcanus - I agree the whole 'You got Earth in my fantasy" plot is over-used, but so much so its considered a major trope of the genre. I don't like to see it everywhere, and I really don't want to see earth heroes stalking the Realms (Ed never did answer my question about that... hmmmm...), but its been done often, from the very first D&D novel (and cartoon series), to Thomas Covenent in The Land.
I may be a bit defensive on this point because I am biased - the fantasy trilogy I have planned (thus far only in my mind) is of the 'Connecticut Yankee' variety (not to mention the 'alternate history' model as well). I think if the entire story/setting revolves around the plot-feature, then it can be quite good. In the case of FR and other settings, that may be a stretch (since FR wasn't designed for Earthers to invade originally), and I would agree with you. Its a case-by-case basis, I think. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 11 Nov 2011 : 06:27:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I see that sometimes you come around to the "all came from one" train of thought. 
I know you are only joking, but just to be clear: you have mischaracterized my position. This is not in the "all came from one" vein. I was merely pointing out that, if Toril has links to Earth (well, D&D Earth), and if Faerūn has been influenced by Earth through the migration of Earth folk and gods to Toril, well then, it only stands to reason that Toril may have influenced Earth in a similar way. Surely it's not just a one-way-street?
One possible piece of evidence for this could be that the Giant tongue looks similar to Danish, or possibly old Norse. George Krashos thought that was just sloppy writing/design on the part of the author of that sourcebook. But since it's canon, I thought that a fun way to think of that lore in a way that makes it seem less silly would be to postulate that giant folk of Toril interacted with the early Germanic peoples of Earth through ancient portals or rifts influencing their language and their mythology.
We know that the Norse pantheon is full of tales of frost giants and fire giants, including the giant gods Thrym and Surtr. You could probably work in a Tyr connection somewhere too. If it turned out that the early Teutons were once giant slaves that escaped from Toril to Earth, it could explain some things and serve as an example of an instance where Toril influenced Earth culture and history.
Oh, and ą propos of the other thing, I just thought of 2 more fantasy franchises that are set in a post-apocalyptic earth: The Shannara books and the Ralph Bakshi film Wizards. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 11 Nov 2011 : 01:00:06
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Conan and Elric of Melibonea BOTH take place in a very distant Earth's past. Dying Earth, Empire of the East and Book of the New Sun all take place in very distant futures (so much so, they appear to be fantasy settings). The Wheel of Time is as well, but much better hidden (and because of the cyclic nature of the theme, could just as easily be in some inconceivably distant past).
A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court was written by one of America's most noteworthy authors; The Chronicles of Narnia by another. Tolkien's stories take place in Middle-Earth, which is based on Midgard - the EARTH of the Norse Mythos... ALL fantasy is based on RW mythology and folklore.
How much more connected to Earth can you get? Fantasy is about our world - always has been. The very first D&D story ever written (by Andre Norton, no less) was Quag Keep, and was about gamers from our world travelling to Greyhawk. We can't get away from it - even when the line isn't crossed, it is still there.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I know it particularly irked George Krashos that the Giant language in the Giantcraft sourcebook was some kind of variant of Danish. But my take on that is that maybe Germanic languages are a variant of the Giant tongue, influenced by their interactions with the Jotuns of Norse myth who came from Faerūn. Heck, maybe the Teutons had their origins on Toril as human slaves of giants, and escaped to Earth via portal. No reason the cross cultural influences can't travel both ways.
I see that sometimes you come around to the "all came from one" train of thought.
To my way of thinking, it doesn't matter in which direction cross-pollination took place, because all things have a common origin. Things did not originate on Toril or on Earth, but somewhere else, and spread outward from there.
And somehow, when we cross planer (quantum?) boundaries, certain things are 'corrected' in regards to the individual and the world they are now on, like what deity answers their prayers, the 'common tongue' they speak, and how their magic works ( abig deal when you think about why Realms Mages are able to still cast spells on non-Weave worlds). In an almost 'Elric-like' way (Eternal Champion concept), each of us has a counterpart elsewhere, even if that counterpart never got to live in that setting. We take the place of the 'us' that might have been, had we been from that world.
At least, that's the story I'm sticking to. 
And now I am thinking about Marvel Comics Council of Cross-Time Kangs (one of my favorite story-lines), and the episode of ST:tNG entitled Parallels - the one that ends with lots and LOTS of Enterprises (also one of my favorites).
Despite the "every thing that could happen has happened somewhere" idea, I still find it dumb to have purely fictional characters come to 'our world'.
Yes, much of fantasy is inspired by our own myths and legends, just as much of it isn't. To say that all fantasy is about our world is imo ludicrous.
And I hate the Harry Potter films/books. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 22:56:26
Conan and Elric of Melibonea BOTH take place in a very distant Earth's past. Dying Earth, Empire of the East and Book of the New Sun all take place in very distant futures (so much so, they appear to be fantasy settings). The Wheel of Time is as well, but much better hidden (and because of the cyclic nature of the theme, could just as easily be in some inconceivably distant past).
A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court was written by one of America's most noteworthy authors; The Chronicles of Narnia by another. Tolkien's stories take place in Middle-Earth, which is based on Midgard - the EARTH of the Norse Mythos... ALL fantasy is based on RW mythology and folklore.
How much more connected to Earth can you get? Fantasy is about our world - always has been. The very first D&D story ever written (by Andre Norton, no less) was Quag Keep, and was about gamers from our world travelling to Greyhawk. We can't get away from it - even when the line isn't crossed, it is still there.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I know it particularly irked George Krashos that the Giant language in the Giantcraft sourcebook was some kind of variant of Danish. But my take on that is that maybe Germanic languages are a variant of the Giant tongue, influenced by their interactions with the Jotuns of Norse myth who came from Faerūn. Heck, maybe the Teutons had their origins on Toril as human slaves of giants, and escaped to Earth via portal. No reason the cross cultural influences can't travel both ways.
I see that sometimes you come around to the "all came from one" train of thought.
To my way of thinking, it doesn't matter in which direction cross-pollination took place, because all things have a common origin. Things did not originate on Toril or on Earth, but somewhere else, and spread outward from there.
And somehow, when we cross planer (quantum?) boundaries, certain things are 'corrected' in regards to the individual and the world they are now on, like what deity answers their prayers, the 'common tongue' they speak, and how their magic works ( abig deal when you think about why Realms Mages are able to still cast spells on non-Weave worlds). In an almost 'Elric-like' way (Eternal Champion concept), each of us has a counterpart elsewhere, even if that counterpart never got to live in that setting. We take the place of the 'us' that might have been, had we been from that world.
At least, that's the story I'm sticking to.
And now I am thinking about Marvel Comics Council of Cross-Time Kangs (one of my favorite story-lines), and the episode of ST:tNG entitled Parallels - the one that ends with lots and LOTS of Enterprises (also one of my favorites). |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Nov 2011 : 05:24:51
I'm a Harry Potter fan. But that doesn't mean I would like all fantasy novels to be set in or have close ties with Earth. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 09 Nov 2011 : 14:18:24
quote:
Originally posted by ArcanusI don't like the idea myself. FR is a fantasy setting, to try to link it to our world is just ridiculous.
Not a Harry Potter fan are you?
As Ed has said, the Forgotten Realms was linked to Earth from its conception--so much so that those links are memorialized in the very name of the setting. That's what I'd call a feature, not a bug.
The good thing is that it's a subtle feature, one that folks can ignore if they like. But I've always been kinda fascinated by the links between Earth and Toril: the way that peoples have been abducted from Earth or just wandered in somehow, the few Earth gods that have crossed over and established themselves in the Faerūnean pantheon, etc.
I know it particularly irked George Krashos that the Giant language in the Giantcraft sourcebook was some kind of variant of Danish. But my take on that is that maybe Germanic languages are a variant of the Giant tongue, influenced by their interactions with the Jotuns of Norse myth who came from Faerūn. Heck, maybe the Teutons had their origins on Toril as human slaves of giants, and escaped to Earth via portal. No reason the cross cultural influences can't travel both ways. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Nov 2011 : 03:53:23
I'm inclined to agree with Arcanus.
Ed did that again in his Falconfar Saga. Perhaps I wouldn't have minded, except that the story itself was...disappointing.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Nov 2011 : 00:45:07
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I never realised that our earth has had visitors from the realms.
Well, as Ed once said, "This, by the way, is where the Forgotten part of Forgotten Realms came from: we people of real-world Earth have forgotten the once-widely-used gates to Toril, which gave us our legends of vampires, dragons, et al."
|
| Arcanus |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 22:57:51
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I never realised that our earth has had visitors from the realms.
Oh, you bet! Elminster, for sure, perhaps others. Elminster is likely the one who has introduced such interesting concepts to the Realms as sterilized chirurgy instruments, boiling water before using it in drinks, and basically anything anyone on Earth takes for granted as a matter of basic education. And this is where he learned it. Along with how to fix lasagna, amongst other things.
The priests of Gond have 'invented' a wonderful new doohickey - heavy lifting cranes at seaports! El has been heard to mutter he knows exactly where they got the idea, implying he's not the only one. And if you take 'Mages Three' at face value, he's likely been to both Greyhawk and Krynn (and in one of these installments, it is implied the Simbul has been to Earth, as well). My impression is that there have been more than a few visitors from the Realms through the eons.
I don't like the idea myself. FR is a fantasy setting, to try to link it to our world is just ridiculous. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 18:50:05
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I never realised that our earth has had visitors from the realms.
Oh, you bet! Elminster, for sure, perhaps others. Elminster is likely the one who has introduced such interesting concepts to the Realms as sterilized chirurgy instruments, boiling water before using it in drinks, and basically anything anyone on Earth takes for granted as a matter of basic education. And this is where he learned it. Along with how to fix lasagna, amongst other things.
The priests of Gond have 'invented' a wonderful new doohickey - heavy lifting cranes at seaports! El has been heard to mutter he knows exactly where they got the idea, implying he's not the only one. And if you take 'Mages Three' at face value, he's likely been to both Greyhawk and Krynn (and in one of these installments, it is implied the Simbul has been to Earth, as well). My impression is that there have been more than a few visitors from the Realms through the eons. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 17:33:55
I never realised that our earth has had visitors from the realms. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 15:45:35
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Could some or all of the Mulhorandi pantheon have "merged" with the Torilian deities of same portfolios?
Possible, but I'm inclined to doubt it. With most of the Mulhorandi people no longer on Toril, there's little reason for Toril's deities to want to merge with their Mulhorandi counterparts -- they simply won't get much out of the deal. It'd be like your independently-owned corner convenience store trying to merge with Wal-Mart -- what does Wal-Mart get out of the deal that makes it worthwhile?
Agreed.
And besides, I'd imagine Ao would need to see the benefits for something like this before allowing it.
He allowed the Mulhorandi Pantheon to spread their influence during the time of fallen Imaskar without 'clear' benefits to him or his cause [whatever that is]. So I don't think he would not allow the merging of some Torilian deities with the Mulhorandi Pantheon just because he sees no benefits in it.
I'd be careful with assigning any type of "directive" to the will of Ao. He's/She's/It's the unknown divine quantity for a reason.
Having said that, I will note that Powers & Pantheons makes it quite clear that when Ao heard the prayers of the Mulhorandi people, he acted to ensure their faith would follow through to Toril. Whether that benefited either himself or his cause, simply isn't for us to know.
Thus, I imagine Ao would probably allow the type of merger you're referring to, only if a similar scenario among the remaining faithful were to play out. Then, allowing the Mulhorandi deities to merge with existing Torilian powers, would at least ensure that the prayers of the faithful are received and, when necessary, acted upon. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 15:11:35
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Could some or all of the Mulhorandi pantheon have "merged" with the Torilian deities of same portfolios?
Possible, but I'm inclined to doubt it. With most of the Mulhorandi people no longer on Toril, there's little reason for Toril's deities to want to merge with their Mulhorandi counterparts -- they simply won't get much out of the deal. It'd be like your independently-owned corner convenience store trying to merge with Wal-Mart -- what does Wal-Mart get out of the deal that makes it worthwhile?
Agreed.
And besides, I'd imagine Ao would need to see the benefits for something like this before allowing it.
He allowed the Mulhorandi Pantheon to spread their influence during the time of fallen Imaskar without 'clear' benefits to him or his cause [whatever that is]. So I don't think he would not allow the merging of some Torilian deities with the Mulhorandi Pantheon just because he sees no benefits in it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 13:25:13
Well, I'm not exactly enthused with Mulhorand and Unther's displacement. I found them more useful in their third edition form (to clarify though, Mulhorand more so than Unther, due to its interactions with Thay and its spreading influence in Unther). However, that being said, I don't want to open this up to a "complaining" session of fourth edition, especially since I don't play it and have fallen to just reading the novels now.
If I were to take up a campaign where the events that had happened in the 4th edition realms were present using 3rd edition rules, I'd definitely play up that prior to the spellplague Mulhorand finished securing Unther. I'd definitely also have the Mulhorandi people have gotten switched over to Abeir along with their pantheon. I'd then build out Abeir a little bit more as a more reptile/dragon/lizard/snake/dinosaur oriented world where humanity was little known. Then where "Thay" and "Aglarond" and "Thesk" are I'd put a powerful orc nation and hint that this is indeed where the orcs from the "Orcgate" came from (hinting that the followers of Thayd who opened the Orcgates using Imaskari lore had actually opened a portal to Abeir, and further hinting that possibly something to do with the Imaskari gates is WHY Mulhorand and Unther were the areas that swapped).
Then (without the books in front of me mind you) I'd say that the people in the Shaar south of Unther (who were also transposed with the genasi country) joined up with the people of the Empire of Mulhorand for protection. So, suddenly this powerful empire of humans shows up in the world, backed by the power of gods who want their worshippers to succeed. However, there are two deities who don't like the empire who also come over. Those deities are Set (lessee, a god of darkness & snakes in Abeir) and Sebek, goddess of Crocodiles (again, a deity of reptiles). These divine beings are actually embraced by SOME (not many) worshippers outside of the Mulhorandi pantheon. Also, the followers of Tiamat and Bahamut gain a greater following amongst the Abeiran dragonborn (both of whom were active in Unther).
I know some of the above would need work, but it could prove for an interesting short part of a campaign if the players suddenly find themselves in this other world. Maybe somehow they have to find a way back to Toril. Maybe they end up re-opening the orcgates and a flood of Orcs spills into this new undead filled Thay (just to make Szass Tam's day, you know).
Some may not like the idea of the Orcgates opening onto Abeir, and I kind of see you'd have to do a little bit of a workaround with it because it would somewhat imply that the Orc deities are present on Abeir. However, I don't have a problem with this, as I could easily see it that perhaps these Orcs are from a crash landed spelljamming vessel. Maybe Ao even let the Orc gods in only in a limited fashion like what he did to the Mulhorandi (such that maybe the Orc deities in Abeir are simply a immortal being living amongst their people, with "royal" orc manifestations present from amongst the families that the immortal bred with). This of course, would bring up further questions of "did the Imaskari barrier against the gods extend to both Toril and Abeir"? I know most would say no to this, but with the ways of magic... who knows.... after all, were Toril and Abeir technically part of the same Crystal Sphere after the separation, just out of phase with one another? Were they made into 2 distinct Crystal Spheres in the same universe but with some kind of link between them? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 10:48:53
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
The workings of the Gods are not for mortals to understand.
Unless the mortals we're talking about the very ones who write about and "decide" the fates of the gods. |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 10:39:11
Don't forget about Sharess/Bastet...surely she is still floating around... |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 07:40:27
I consider material published in Planescape to be true so they would still exist and just not be present on Faerun because they have no worshipers. My computer hard drive died along with all my pdfs but I seem to recall that the God Kings were just small aspects of the larger multispheric Egyptian deities. Don't some Mulhorandi survivors in Gheldaneth still worship "the old gods". I can't read what it said but I think that entry would contain clues as to the canonical answer to this question.
In regards to Bast, the impression i've gotten (and I don't think there is an absolute answer) but the aspect of Bast on Toril became Sharess by merging with Zandilar... but Bast still had aspects on other worlds where she was worshiped.
In my own envisioning of the Realms the Mulhorandi pantheon would have merged with the Faerunian pantheon, with only the non-redundant deities staying. (Geb, Hathor, Anhur, and Set don't really have an obvious parallel in the larger Faerunian pantheon, to me. Also I like Seshat... )
I don't think "lackey" is a good word to describe exarchs, especially exarchs of freedom loving deities like Sune = P
The workings of the Gods are not for mortals to understand. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 21:20:39
The FRCG (p.81) says that Sharess (who came to Toril with the other Egyptian Mulhorandi deities as Bast) is still listed as having influence over 'cats'. Wherever the other Mulhorand deities went, she stuck around as one of Sune's lackeys (exarchs). But as far as I'm aware, she's the only one.
- OMH |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 16:27:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Could some or all of the Mulhorandi pantheon have "merged" with the Torilian deities of same portfolios?
Possible, but I'm inclined to doubt it. With most of the Mulhorandi people no longer on Toril, there's little reason for Toril's deities to want to merge with their Mulhorandi counterparts -- they simply won't get much out of the deal. It'd be like your independently-owned corner convenience store trying to merge with Wal-Mart -- what does Wal-Mart get out of the deal that makes it worthwhile?
Agreed.
And besides, I'd imagine Ao would need to see the benefits for something like this before allowing it. |
| Therise |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 16:22:59
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
More power?
Well, their influence and worshipper-base wouldn't increase that much. It'd be a bad deal for the Mulhorandi deities, really.
Personally, I think they're just hanging out, deep underground, associated with hidden temples. They might be hanging on to their status as deities by a tiny thread, depending on how many active worshippers they still have.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 14:35:27
More power? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 14:30:02
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Could some or all of the Mulhorandi pantheon have "merged" with the Torilian deities of same portfolios?
Possible, but I'm inclined to doubt it. With most of the Mulhorandi people no longer on Toril, there's little reason for Toril's deities to want to merge with their Mulhorandi counterparts -- they simply won't get much out of the deal. It'd be like your independently-owned corner convenience store trying to merge with Wal-Mart -- what does Wal-Mart get out of the deal that makes it worthwhile? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 13:38:23
Could some or all of the Mulhorandi pantheon have "merged" with the Torilian deities of same portfolios? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 02:26:29
Okay folks, let's try to get back on-topic, eh? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 01:48:16
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Doing a cheesy Reality Show? 
Mulhorandi Idol! |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 01:45:40
Yeah I would say they are with Maztica and a few other places that are now on Abeir, and they are referred to as Returned-Toril over there. |
| skychrome |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 01:40:29
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Doing a cheesy Reality Show?
Mulhorand's Got Talent
I prefer "So You Think You Can Bellydance"
I heard they are now actors in Return of the Mummy XVII and 10.000 B.C. Reloaded... |
| Therise |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 01:12:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Doing a cheesy Reality Show?
Mulhorand's Got Talent
I prefer "So You Think You Can Bellydance"
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 00:12:55
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Doing a cheesy Reality Show?
Mulhorand's Got Talent |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 23:58:53
Doing a cheesy Reality Show? |
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