| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 27 Feb 2011 : 19:00:13
Ok. So. Say Many-Arrows is facing a population crisis. They don't have enough fertile land to support their growing population. Their constant war with the Uthgart and the various monstrous races of the Spine isn't doing enough to keep their numbers in check anymore. They look south and east, there's the Silver Marches; their allies, for whatever that's worth, not to mention an enemy that would entangle them for years if not decades with no guarantee of victory. They look north, and there's nothing but ice.
But Obould the 6th/16th(depending on whether you use the novel or sourcebook count, respectively) instead looks west. There's Luskan, a scum-hole no one else wants, a potential port for his land-locked kingdom. And between him and it? Hundreds of miles of good, usable land for his people with no one to oppose him.
So the drums of war thunder once again yadda yadda. Many-Arrows goes on the march towards the coast.
How does the Silver Marches react? Are they relieved the orcs aren't breathing down their necks anymore, especially with the shades encroaching from the other side? Are they alarmed by the sudden aggressive, expansive attitude of the orc state? Are they overcome with a need to defend the people of the savage frontier? Do they see this as a perfect opportunity to strike now that the orcs' backs are turned?
Posed this question to Ed a while back, specifically whether or not such action on Many-Arrows' part would be in violation of their treaty with the Marches. I'm curious to the other scribes' thoughts on the matter, though. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| ChieftainTwilight |
Posted - 24 Mar 2011 : 22:50:15
I'm gonna kep my answer simple.
if Many-Arrows went to war towards the Sword Coast, it would invariably ignite panic amongs all the people of the North. they already had to deal with the uncomfortable fact that creatures they had for so long thought of as infeior and savage forced themselves into their place. nobody was ready to allow them land, or trade agreements. it took a fight that lastedfor an incredible amount of time before King Obould had his treaty.
all the powerful nations of that land would be ready to block the effort. Waterdeep and the Silver Marches would especially be furious. they'd go NATO on Many-Arrows! XD
on the other hand, if discussions were first made with the Silver Marches (and possibly also with Waterdeep) before any move was made, than the level of panic may be lessened somewhat. that still doesn'tguaruntee trust, not by a long shot, nor does it mean that they are even likely to be given permission. it would be a very delicate situation. but regardless, I don't think Obould the current-king-of-Many-Arrows would even have the tact that the 1st King Obould had, and wouldn't think to do that. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 24 Mar 2011 : 22:24:50
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Beast, that gives me a brilliant idea. I see Asmodeus' church gaining a major following among the dwarves of the Silver Marches in my home games. "Retribution is the basis of all justice" was the logic that (by myth, anyway) lead to the creation of Hell and Asmodeus' rise to power. The idea of vengeance hungry ends justifying the means dwarves(already touched upon in RAS' Casim Cu Calas organization) is a rather appealing one.
I love that! A dwarf should be forced to confront the price of justice, just deserts, proper consequences, etc., in a difficult situation--such as with a friend or ally.
WWMD: What would Moradin do?  |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 06:32:51
Beast, that gives me a brilliant idea. I see Asmodeus' church gaining a major following among the dwarves of the Silver Marches in my home games. "Retribution is the basis of all justice" was the logic that (by myth, anyway) lead to the creation of Hell and Asmodeus' rise to power. The idea of vengeance hungry ends justifying the means dwarves(already touched upon in RAS' Casim Cu Calas organization) is a rather appealing one. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 23:10:52
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Never going to happen. Obould will be remembered as a freedom fighter.
Not by the bearded folk, he won't!
This revisionist history is precisely why I have never felt comfortable with the orc king. His vision does not negate his action.
And if the orcs truly wish to be seen as moral and noble and all that, then let them pay for their crimes. It's wrong to let them enjoy the status of ally without forcing them to endure the penalties that should've come as a result of the non-ally-ish behavior that they displayed not that long ago. That ain't justice.
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| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 06:14:10
Another thought occurs to me; Neverwinter's not far off. How would the react to an organized orc army marching on their hated (but ruined) rival? Would anyone in the city think that the orcs could make good business partners? Would they be concerned that the orcs could use Luskan as a base to strike out against them? |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 22:35:32
I also picture Many-Arrows as being a true multi-ethnical nation. The vast majority being orcs(with a great variety in clan heritage) and half-orcs, as well as ogres and trolls, but beyond that I also imagine there being a good number of free humans; both children taken from raids against the Uthgart, mercenaries selling their skills to the orcs, and criminals escaping the justice of human lands and finding Luskan too depraved for their liking. Also, dwarves, though in much smaller numbers, both mercenaries, merchants, and craftsmen who care more about coin than racial hatred, as well as (again) criminals fleeing judgement. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 22:29:17
I have a theory that with their massive numbers and other advantages, Man-Arrows could have won their "wars" against the Uthgart barbarians and the other monstrous humanoids of the spine; the giants, the ogres, the goblinoids. The higher brass, Obould's inner circle, is keeping the wars going by throwing only enough bodies at the problem so the won't suffer major losses, they'll lose just enough to wittle away at their population growth, and most importantly, that they'll keep the orc's battle lust sated so they don't get a large cry for war with the Marches.
I also believe that the orcs have faced and repelled attempts by the drow to break their kingdom. In the Hunter's Blades Trilogy, Drizzt mentions how the drow were always on edge about their orc and goblin slaves, that if they could be united they could overthrow drow society on numbers alone. Many-Arrows could be the beacon to rally them with, and I'm sure their are plenty of drow who'd rather not take the chance of that happening.
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| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 10:41:22
not necessarily in the 4e realms - there plent< of canon and information around from novels, earlier books etc.
the shining white hold is in the eastern part of the mountains i think, gerti holds agrudge, right, but this would even bolster my theory, with the frost giants forming a barrier in the spine on the eastern side, and on the wastern side they could then move round such barriers and attack riper targets.
of course, ogres and trolls have teamed with many-arrows from its early hours, some willingly, some not.
but I cannot imagine that in the vast space of the spine, just imagine how many "levels" the cxave system below it have in addition to the surface..., there is no other humanoid kingdom, like king grautl or graul, which obould fought earlier.
population is another theme, obould brought over 30k warriors in his initial rush, and as you said his troops have massively increased during the campaign, for your mentioned reasons.
but, with the orcs being "relatively" safe, compared to their earlier homes, after 100 years, the population must have swollen so massively that there could easily be hundreds of thousands of orcs.
just imagine, even on their meager existances the orcs had BEFORE many-arrows, their numbers had, despite the much worse supply situation, swollen to produce a horde of oboulds-size every 20 to 40 years.
Just do the math, many-arrows never sent a huge horde out to keep population low and has not fought wars which would justify the population not to have increased massivley.
given their reproduction-rate, many-arrows could by now be home to more orcs than humans., elves and dwarves live in northern faerun together....
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| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 09:22:23
Well, 4e realms hasn't mentioned anything about other orc kingdoms in the spine besides many-arrows.
Ogres. In my realms I've had them more or less integrate into orcish society in Many-Arrows; not completely, several tribes still oppose the kingdom and raid it like they would any other, but just as many have found a place within it. Smaller number of trolls, too. As Vaprak has been subjugated by Gruumsh, his people have started to learn to get in line with the orcs.
Giants remain a formidable enemy of the kingdom, especially the frost giants of the Shining White who hold a grudge against the orcs after they got the short end of the stick during the war.
As for population, the only mention is that the capitol, Dark Arrow Keep, is home to a rather modest 2000. That being said, it's a fortress, not a city. Obould had summoned tens of thousands out of the spine, more including noncombatants. The numbers have likely only gone up in the last hundred years. |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 09:12:55
well, it would immensey help if we could find some canon information about this.
i think the subjugation of other kingdoms of the spine would surely have been noted down somewhere.
and also bear in mind, that not only orcs are living in the spine. an ogre / giant kingdom could very well bind the orc-forces for several decades...
and there are worse things living in the spine than giants...
i rather meant, with stretching to the coast, they would have an option to DIRECTLY attack several smaller humanoid kingdoms, and not have to fight their way through the mountains or tunnels below them.
They could simply avoid the "tough-ones" and go for the humanoids....
also, does the 4e realms give any hint on the total population of many-arrows?
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| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 04 Mar 2011 : 21:45:44
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
another thing so far not mentioned is,
as we have found in many posts so far, many-arrows is by far not the only orc-kingdom in the spine of the world.
if many-arrows would stretch their hold into luskan and the coast, they would probably be in the strategic situation to conquer at least half a dozen more orc and other humanoid kingdoms in the spine of the world.
this could prove evn more of a problem, as the "standard orc" couldbe very well tempted to settle in the foothills of the spine of the world, bringing a lot of new warriors under their control with ease - hunting in light woods is by far easier than in the underdark or the mountains.
the big question is then, if the orc kings in the mountains would eventually team up to crush the "weaklings" of many arrows and to maintain their power.
the above mentioned, especially if many arrows would manage to subdue these kingdoms would probably worry the silver marches much more than the taking of Luskan.
Noone know how many tens of thousands of warriors are still hidden in the spine of the world.
Looking at the 4e map of Faerun, I'm noting that the name "Many-Arrows" is stretched over a sizable portion of the spine of the world mountain range. Now, that could be meaningless. It's a long name and they use the same font size for all kingdom names.
But all evidence I've seen and I could be wrong points to Many-Arrows being the single largest orc Kingdom in the Spine.
Plus, due to trade(and despite the overpopulation problem I proposed in the first post), the orcs of Many-Arrows are likely considerably more well fed than the other orcs of the spine, as well as having access to considerably better equipment.
I have little doubt that Many-Arrows has subjugated most of the orc tribes in the spine, or at least it's half of the spine. Beyond that, I believe that orc tribes from all over Faerun flocked to Many-Arrows after its foundation, whether guided by divine message or simply curious to see if the rumors are true. This is likely a major cause of the numerous internal conflicts and civil wars Many-Arrows has been through. Whenever it takes in new comers, it has to get them in line with the new way of doing things. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 18:58:35
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Grumsh is a woman scorned.
Well you know, a lost eye and all. |
| Kno |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 18:53:07
Grumsh is a woman scorned. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 12:40:46
quote:
Originally posted by Light
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Assuming you consider it wise to scorn the commandments of the god who created your race ... particularly one as hateful, strong, and brutal as He Who Watches, Gruumsh One-Eye.
Reminds me a lot of Drizzt
the scorner? He scorns his race and its commandments, I can see that  |
| Light |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 09:26:47
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Assuming you consider it wise to scorn the commandments of the god who created your race ... particularly one as hateful, strong, and brutal as He Who Watches, Gruumsh One-Eye.
Reminds me a lot of Drizzt |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 08:37:03
Assuming you consider it wise to scorn the commandments of the god who created your race ... particularly one as hateful, strong, and brutal as He Who Watches, Gruumsh One-Eye. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 08:12:45
The Grey Orcs are, well, wiser; and not as physically powerful. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 08:03:14
quote:
Markustay
... Green (Mountain) Orcs are the newer chaotic type, and Gray Orcs are the old-school, lawful evil type (although art-wise, it is actually the reverse, but I am talking about behavior).
I'm a bit fuzzy on the 4E details ... the Greens and Grays are physically different? I thought the distinction was more cultural than ethnic, though I'm probably wrong. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 05:56:20
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Jab aside, I feel about as much sympathy or pity for a dwarf that would kill an orc just because it is an orc as I feel for an orc that would kill a dwarf just because it is a dwarf, which is to say, not much.
Oh, to be sure, I don't advocate the killing of an orc just because he's an orc. I advocate the killing of an orc because of what an orc does and represents.
Remember Clicking Heels and Shallows. Remember Tred McKnuckles's ill-fated trade party from Citadel Felbarr. Remember Generals Dagnabbit and Dagna. Remember Tarathiel the elf.
And remember that gods-forsaken stink of orc that's still out there on the front porch of Mithral Hall. That's never gonna wash out!
I say that if orcs truly have become civilized, then let them submit to the rule of law. Obould should've willingly handed himself over for prosecution for his crimes, and he should've been executed by Bruenor's great axe. Let him show his orcs the consequences of his foolhardy conquest. Let him show them that law & order is greater than bullying.
But no...
Instead, he gets amnesty and an easy retirement. 
Never going to happen. Obould will be remembered as a freedom fighter.
The guy who brought orcs from the guys who lived in caves and were hunted and killed irrespective of their alignment to creatures to be respected and treated with slightly more respect than vermin |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 00:50:34
Tarathiel who? Why would I want to remember an elf? I ain't carving a girly name like that into stone.
'Twas a real shame about Tred McKnuckles, though. Not the sharpest axe in the clan, but he was a good drinker. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 23:27:21
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Jab aside, I feel about as much sympathy or pity for a dwarf that would kill an orc just because it is an orc as I feel for an orc that would kill a dwarf just because it is a dwarf, which is to say, not much.
Oh, to be sure, I don't advocate the killing of an orc just because he's an orc. I advocate the killing of an orc because of what an orc does and represents.
Remember Clicking Heels and Shallows. Remember Tred McKnuckles's ill-fated trade party from Citadel Felbarr. Remember Generals Dagnabbit and Dagna. Remember Tarathiel the elf.
And remember that gods-forsaken stink of orc that's still out there on the front porch of Mithral Hall. That's never gonna wash out!
I say that if orcs truly have become civilized, then let them submit to the rule of law. Obould should've willingly handed himself over for prosecution for his crimes, and he should've been executed by Bruenor's great axe. Let him show his orcs the consequences of his foolhardy conquest. Let him show them that law & order is greater than bullying.
But no...
Instead, he gets amnesty and an easy retirement. |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 22:14:48
another thing so far not mentioned is,
as we have found in many posts so far, many-arrows is by far not the only orc-kingdom in the spine of the world.
if many-arrows would stretch their hold into luskan and the coast, they would probably be in the strategic situation to conquer at least half a dozen more orc and other humanoid kingdoms in the spine of the world.
this could prove evn more of a problem, as the "standard orc" couldbe very well tempted to settle in the foothills of the spine of the world, bringing a lot of new warriors under their control with ease - hunting in light woods is by far easier than in the underdark or the mountains.
the big question is then, if the orc kings in the mountains would eventually team up to crush the "weaklings" of many arrows and to maintain their power.
the above mentioned, especially if many arrows would manage to subdue these kingdoms would probably worry the silver marches much more than the taking of Luskan.
Noone know how many tens of thousands of warriors are still hidden in the spine of the world.
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 18:04:44
The orcs taking the coast is in my opinion the best option for them.
The ally that they would need is in the Nelanther Isles: pirates, a large number of them are ORCS.
This would allow a more established Orc Kingdom to thrive in war any time it wished. The seas would open the way for orcs to be ferried just about anywhere that their blades could be slaked on raiding or hired as sellswords.
I really like the idea of Luskan being an Orc City...REALLY like it.
Consider it stolen. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 15:07:06
I'm wondering if we might--maybe just maybe--have some canonical basis for your notion, Chosen:
- Gauntlgrym, Pro.:5 - Urlgen is Obould II, the new King of Many-Arrows. [Perhaps he decided to launch a campaign of expansion to mark the beginning of his reign?]
- The Orc King, Pro. - Drizzt fought against Obould II in the great war of the Year of the Solitary Cloister (1408 DR). [Maybe Drizzt took on Obould II in such a campaign?]
- Gaunt., P1:C2:46 - The Council of Silverymoon had commissioned the mount of Andahar for Drizzt for his work with diplomacy and the blade in the Third Orc War. [Exactly what these wars were, though, is unclear. Perhaps 1st Orc War = 1371 DR ("The Hunter's Blades Trilogy"); 2nd Orc War = 1372 DR (TOK); and 3rd Orc War = 1408 DR (TOK, Pro.)?]
- Gaunt., P1:C2:48 - Bruenor had led through two wars which had threatened all of the Silver Marches. [Apparently, he wasn't actively involved in the Third Orc War, though.]
However, in all honesty, there is some apparent conflict in the sources, here.
- Gaunt., Pro.:9 - Bruenor had kept tensions low enough with Obould II.
- Gaunt., Pro.:1 - The truce (Treaty of Garumn's Gorge) had held through the succession of Obould II.
Does this indicate that Bruenor and Mithral Hall stayed out of the 3rd Orc War, but Drizzt (and some unnamed allies) fought in it, instead? |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 14:23:45
Jab aside, I feel about as much sympathy or pity for a dwarf that would kill an orc just because it is an orc as I feel for an orc that would kill a dwarf just because it is a dwarf, which is to say, not much.
That being said, I do thank Beast for his insight into the issue; he reinforces one of the possibilities I set forth; that at least the dwarves would oppose Many-Arrows' march on general principle. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 08:12:58
Kender and kobolds serve that role in my campaign. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 00:23:03
I have to admit I'm starting to see the appeal of things you can kill without remorse. Genocidal dwarves, for instance. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 21:10:02
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
IF Obould approached someone else first - most notably the Lords Alliance & Waterdeep - keep the Silver marches out of it (they would not want to see Obould grow more powerful) - and explained to them his reasoning (destroying a pirate port and breeding-ground for miscreants), AND offered them FIRST choice of harbor-usage and trade concessions (there has to be something in it for them to go along with the plan), then it has a chance to succeed.
He needs a human or at least demi-human ally, and preferably a power in the North (depending upon how he is getting on with Mithral hall, that could even work, given the discovery of Baffenburg).
Per the FRCG (4E), the dwarves (including those of Mithral Hall) are out of the League of Silver Marches/Luruar. Perhaps this is because they could never really see the orcs as allies. The Delzoun weren't willing to stretch their defenses thin by safeguarding all the smaller communities in the region--especially with a kingdom of orcs as next-door neighbors, methinks.
The dwarves might oppose an Obould-on-the-march--again--just on general principle.
And I think they should.
How do I like my orcs? It's simple: D-E-A-D.
"The only good orc . . . is a dead orc!" |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 07:27:05
To paraphrase the Incredibles; to say that everyone is special is a nicer way of saying nobody is. Though it is possible for the majority of dwarves to be above average if the ones that are below average are way, way below average.
Of course I was actually paying the dwarves a compliment, saying they don't break as easy as elves or humans.
Anyway. Any further thoughts regarding the scenario put forth in the original post? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 05:43:28
Aw, well now, no reason to go insulting dwarves all outta place like that. Ain't no such thing as an "average dwarf". Every single dwarf is above average.  |
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