| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Half elven |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 20:15:01
to the underdark? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ananta |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 20:36:39
I guess RAS had Cattie die to make Drizzt's character more gloomy. Returning him to his struggle with good and evil. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 17:43:00
Hee-hee! Aaaand it has the added bonus of giving RAS a "Next Gen" charater or three to play with!! I'd have loved to see what their kids would be like. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 08:30:31
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
<snip>
It would have been much more interesting to have her running around Mithril Hall setting up a nursery and puking at all hours, if RAS wanted to set her aside for a while. But that's just my take.
Seconded. Making Cattie a mage makes no sense - but having her get pregnant would be better in this situation. |
| Ananta |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 03:06:48
I'm a huge fan of Drizzt. I love most of the books, but yeah, there are only so many "that sure was close to death, if only that feather hadn't dropped from that birds tail on that exact moment, I'd be dead" -situations one can have before it gets dull. And Drizzt is way past the limit.
It actually went so far that I wouldn't have been surprised if Catti-Brie would have ended up as Chosen of Mystra and Drizzt as Chosen of Mielikki, and both being given immortality, just so they could live happily ever after.
I, personally, would rather read about the life of Zaknafein or Jarlaxle, than Drizzt. Drizzt has already been sort of sucked dry... I suppose only way to make him seem interesting again is making him evil. Make him step into the dark side.
But I guess that would just be stupid, too, since we already had/have his evil counterpart, Artemis Entreri... D: |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 04:04:48
From reading TGK, I gathered that after his "sacrifice" Cadderly was given a "new life" by Deneir. A reward for his selfless service, as it were. Unfortunately, for various reasons, I've never quite gotten around to the Cleric books, so I don't know all the stuff that led UP TO his death, just the aftermath. But I think it's safe to say that Cadderly will remain where he is for a VERY long time- unless someone out there knows how to destroy an uber-powerful dracolich/artifact combo? I kinda doubt it. Bringing Cadderly back from that would just unleash that darned dracolich again, and no one wants that.
As for Drizzt dying, he came damed close to it when Ellifain used her ring to turn his attacks back on him. The only reason he didn't was that Cattie-Brie ignored his wishes to restore Ellifain instead, and she chose to give HIM the healing potion. Now THAT'S love. Guess it comes down to the old question of two people about to die, one a stranger the other a loved one- who do you save? And he never fully forgave himself for that whole disaster. Never mind that the elf had brought it on herself with her misguided desire for revenge.
The thing about Wulfgar's death is that his body had never been found, so he was not even confirmed to be dead to begin with! It's like in those soap operas- people "die" all the time, or at least disappear, and you always know they will come back a few episodes later after everyone thinks they are gone, and surprise the "killer" or whoever else would be utterly fubarred by their return. Bruenor was fortunate enought not to even be gon for an entire book, due to his hold on Icingdeath when Shimmergloom went down. (And why that worked with a SHADOW dragon has always baffled me...)
I'm still trying to figure out why Cattie-Brie decided to turn mage of all things. She's never shown any indication of an aptitude for magic up to then, so why would she have later? But aside from those minor annoyances, I've liked all but the last book (TGK). What made me the most angry, aside from killing off Cat, was that he went the slightly cheesy "they can't have kids because she broke her hip in that big battle" route. Wait- huh?! In a city with several high-level priests?! with Silverymoon and its magical capabilities just a few weeks ride away?! Surely SOMEONE would have the ability to fix that. And all she'd have to do was ask. It would have been much more interesting to have her running around Mithril Hall setting up a nursery and puking at all hours, if RAS wanted to set her aside for a while. But that's just my take. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 23:35:47
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And that wasn't a fake Volo - that was the real Volo trying to prove he was the real Volo,
Ah, yes, thanks for the reminder. I knew that! 
quote:
and all the lore in that book (despite how truly bad it is) is reconcilable.
I disagree.
<WOTC's old timeline> officially dates Once Around the Realms in 1367 DR. The Drizzt chapter has Drizzt alone on a raft in the Sea of Swords rescuing Volo and then returning him to a dwarf-captained ship, with the drow all melancholy and somber.
But this would've been right in the middle of RAS's mini-series "Paths of Darkness", at which time Drizzt was living with Catti-brie, Bruenor, and Regis, back in Icewind Dale. In the interim time period between the two "POD" novels The Silent Blade (1365 DR) and Sea of Swords (1370-'71 DR), the Companions served as highwayman-hunters for the people of Ten-Towns. SOSw assures us that they had had nearly constant adventures performing this duty during the intervening years.
So why was Drizzt all alone on a ship without his Companions? That would make it awfully hard to hunt Icewind Dale highwaymen, wouldn't it?
If you recall, TSB ended with Drizzt effectively dying at the hands of a stoneskin-equipped Entreri. Jar healed Drizzt and explained it all away, but Cat watched Drizzt die, and the book says that Drizzt's death had affected her even more than Wulf's death had in The Legacy. So apparently, this event is what finally drove Cat and Drizzt together as a romantic couple, as seen in SOSw.
Now, since Drizzt was in love, then why was he sad in OATR? This was supposedly the happiest time of his life!
And since he had a girlfriend, then why was he away from her on a ship with a bunch of dudes?
In OATR, Drizzt acts sad that he can <never . . . go home>, and apparently he's talking about Menzo of all places!
But Drizzt certainly could go back to Menzo: he had just done so in Starless Night (1358 DR). After that debacle, he was happy not to go back--not sad!
And besides, in Passage to Dawn (1364 DR), Drizzt had come to the realization that Menzo had never even really been his "home" anyway; Icewind Dale had earned that title.
Why would Drizzt sadly think himself unable to return to his home (Icewind Dale) at that time, when he was living there with his girlfriend and best friend, and under contract to work there, and basically having the time of his life?
quote:
I still think he should have left Cadderly dead, but whatever.
Now, that's something we can both agree on. I didn't like the fact that Deneir made Cadderly go through the whole aging-to-death thing in the first place. It seems like a cruel thing for a loving god to do to a faithful believer. But whatever--it happened.
To undo the aging and reset the character just seemed cartoonish and silly.
Perhaps TSR wanted that, too, and not just Wulfgar's return? |
| BEAST |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 22:44:56
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I've never even heard of the other one. Or the writer, either, for that matter. The style certainly sounded a lot like RAS.
Here is a <link> to a great article right here at the 'Keep in which Mark Anthony explains his side of the confusion over the short story "The Fires of Narbondel" and the book Shores of Dusk.
A blurb at the end from James Lowder denies that the situation had anything to do with compensation, but was a non-financial business disagreement.
I've asked Bob about it, and it's still a touchy issue for him. He's never mentioned money being the problem. But he did cite the work load.
I found an old "Atlas of Adventure" interview (c.2001) on the 'net, and it is very telling, methinks. Some key blurbs follow.
Re: the business dispute:
quote:
AoA: There was a huge rift between you and TSR, after a period of time. Would that be fair to say?
Salvatore: Yeah. We had a huge rift. I had creative differences with the new editor. We didn’t get along. When it came time for contract, I was going to sign for three more “Dark Elf” books, but they wanted paperbacks for a different series from me too. I didn’t have time to do them. I [didn’t] want to burn out. They said, “It’s all or nothing, take it or leave it. If you leave it, we will get someone else to write Dark Elf”. I said, “That’s your choice, I’m leaving it” [Contract]. I walked away from them, and it was a very bad time. It got very ugly… I didn’t agree creatively.
And re: the resurrection of Wulfgar:
quote:
AoA: But, then you brought him back. Can you explain why you brought him back. Was it because of the public outcry?
Salvatore: Well, that was part of it. My mail was split fifty-fifty quite honestly about that issue. I knew, that whatever I did, I was going to get beat up pretty good. There are two reasons why I brought him back. One, I felt bad that he had become a shallow character, because the book was supposed to have been about him. This “Dark Elf” kind of nudged in and pushed everybody out of the way. I really wanted to explore him more deeply, which I think I have done since I brought him back. The other reason that I brought him back, quite honestly… I knew that if I didn’t bring him back, someone [from TSR] was going to, and I didn’t want them to do it. So I did it, before they could. That’s the truth. I am glad I brought him back though.
And re: killing off characters (his own Realmsians, or otherwise), but then bringing them back:
quote:
AoA: Dead is dead.
Salvatore: Here is the thing. I contributed to this [disgruntlement about resurrections, with] Wulfgar, so I admit to it. I am also contributing to it with Drizzt with the on-going sagas where he should have been dead a hundred times. But, here he is, still kicking along. This is something that bothers me about Fantasy. I think it is dumbing down Fantasy. This idea that the heroes, are immortal. It’s like hands-off with the main character. If you deviate from that the readers get angry. Heroes die…and they should. Would anyone in our time know who Joan of Arc was, if she had not been burned at the stake? Probably not. The truth of it is, as a culture we don’t talk about death. As a culture we don’t understand death. As a culture, because of a crisis of faith, we don’t ask enough questions about it. I think that is changing. Fantasy should deal with the themes of heroism and sacrifice. Including, the ultimate sacrifice.
He acknowledged having contributed to the disgruntlement with his own writing, and yet, it still took him this long to actually kill off most of his main side characters. He went on to say how proud he was that he got to kill important people off right away in his non-Realms "DemonWars" series. So it sounds like he was attributing the decision to repeatedly fake the Realmsians' deaths, and then to bring them back, to TSR.
(Sorry, but the forum software is messing up the link to it for some reason: <www.atlasofadventure.com/interviews/RAS.asp>" target="_blank">http://web.archive.org/web/20010426083955/www.atlasofadventure.com/interviews/RAS.asp>
It's an old archived web page, so it's slow to load.)
For a review, first consider this Realms publishing history of the RAS-related works leading up to the timeframe concerned (does not include RAS's works for other publishers and worlds):
- The Crystal Shard, RAS, TSR, JAN-1988.
- Streams of Silver, RAS, TSR, JAN-1989.
- Hall of Heroes, RAS et al, TSR, APR-1989.
- "The First Notch", RAS, Dragon 152, TSR, DEC-1989.
- The Bloodstone Lands, RAS, TSR, DEC-1989.
- The Halfling's Gem, RAS, TSR, JAN-1990.
- Homeland, RAS, TSR, SEP-1990.
- Exile, RAS, TSR, DEC-1990.
- Sojourn, RAS, TSR, MAY-1991.
- Canticle, RAS, TSR, OCT-1991.
- In Sylvan Shadows, RAS, TSR, APR-1992.
- Night Masks, RAS, TSR, AUG-1992.
- The Legacy, RAS, TSR, SEP-1992.
- Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set], "Book Two: The Houses" & "The House Do'Urden Retrospective", RAS et al, TSR, OCT-1992.
- "Dark Mirror", RAS, Realms of Valor, TSR, JAN-1993.
- The Fallen Fortress, RAS, TSR, JUN-1993.
- Starless Night, RAS, TSR, AUG-1993.
Now, of course Bob is no Ed, but that list would seem to prove that Bob was a pretty prolific writer from the very beginning. He was a workhorse!
And yet, the whip cracked for more. When he apparently faltered under the work load, that's when others were brought in:
- The Chaos Curse, RAS, TSR, JUN-1994.
- Siege of Darkness, RAS, TSR, AUG-1994.
- "The Third Level", RAS, Realms of Infamy, TSR, DEC-1994.
- Once Around the Realms, Brian M. Thomsen, TSR, APR-1995.
- "Guenhwyvar", RAS, Realms of Magic, TSR, DEC-1995.
- "The Fires of Narbondel", Mark Anthony, Realms of the Underdark, TSR, APR-1996.
- Passage to Dawn, RAS, TSR, AUG-1996.
- The Shores of Dusk, Mark Anthony, TSR, Scheduled for AUG-1997/Cancelled.
It was around this time that TSR Hobbies folded up, and WOTC took over.
Bob was brought back in, and he picked up with the Companions where he'd left them off, in Icewind Dale:
- The Silent Blade, RAS, WOTC, OCT-1998.
- The Accursed Tower, RAS et al, WOTC, FEB-1999.
- The Spine of the World, RAS, WOTC, SEP-1999.
[snip Servant of the Shard & "WOTSQ" stuff]
- Sea of Swords, RAS, WOTC, OCT-2001.
And even then, with no less than five books that described the Companions as having moved back to Icewind Dale (PTD, TSB, TAT, TSOTW, & SOSw), the games department put out multiple books that never acknowledged this, instead effectively depicting Bruenor (and apparently everybody else) as having lived in Mithral Hall the whole time:
- The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier, TSR, APR-1996.
- Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, WOTC, NOV-1999.
- Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3E, WOTC, JUN-2001.
- Silver Marches, WOTC, JUL-2002.
(Although, SM did acknowledge that Bruenor had abdicated the throne to his forefather Gandalug for a time.)
In OCT-2002, The Thousand Orcs brought Bruenor & Co. from Icewind Dale back to the vicinity of Mithral Hall, merging the novel and lorebook storylines, but it was a bumpy, messy ride.
It is possible that WOTC included RAS's oversight and his name as part of the title to "War of the Spider Queen" in the early 2000s partially to avoid the same sort of miscommunication that occurred regarding the rise of the Silver Marches and King Obould.
And perhaps it is in part because of all that past bruhaha that WOTC decided to just let the man be when he decided to continue writing about Drizzt and all the usual friends in all the usual haunts, for so long, instead of branching out and exploring other people in other places--much to the chagrin of the bored critics.
Heck, in the mid-2000s, when Bob switched over to Entreri and Jarlaxle as the stars of the show with the "The Sellswords" mini-series, instead of Drizzt and Co., sales reportedly went down.
It wasn't long before he picked up the Drizzt Saga once again with the "Transitions" trilogy. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 03:36:46
Hmm. My mistake, then. Was still a good story though. And you're right, his style Is pretty easy to pick up and imitate, as I discovered when I wrote a Marvel x-over featuring Drizzt and Spidey. Sadly, all my stuff is currently buried in an upstairs storage in my dad's workshop. Which is why I've not been able to dig through it to verify certain things of late. I kept out very little of my FR stuff- just the ones I use frequently for my own research into various subjects for fics of my own. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 03:24:34
No, that story was not written by RAS but by Mark Anthony. It seems to be relatively easy to imitate RAS's style though, just ask the fan fic authors.  |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 02:59:54
You sure? I could swear it was RAS- one of the only reasons i thought the book was the Zaknafein tale, and I've read it several times over the years, which I can't say of any of the other stories in that book. I've never even heard of the other one. Or the writer, either, for that matter. The style certainly sounded a lot like RAS. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 02:44:15
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Actually, the short story in RotU was RAS.
No, I don't think so. "The Fires of Narbondel" is credited to Mark Anthony, who was the same guy who was contracted to write Shores of Dusk. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 03:29:37
My bad. I was misremembering what the Shores of Dusk author had said. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 16:30:36
My bet is money and not wanting his character mucked up.... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 16:15:14
I've never heard that. 
It may have had something to do with his unwillingness to write another Drizzt book - perhaps he was holding out for more money (that they were obviously unwilling to pay - I got it from a good source that WotC pays way below 'scale'). I've never actually heard about a money dispute though, so its pure conjecture.
The way I've always heard it told (from both sides) is that they wanted more Drizzt, and RAS wanted to write about other things, so they signed a different author to write a Drizzt novel.
Which forced RAS to reconsider. Weather it was for noble reason (not wanting 'his' character ruined), monetary reasons, or ego is something we will probably never know. Most-likely it was some combination of all three. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 02:52:02
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In his defense, he DID try to stop writing Drizzt novels.
They threatened to have another author write a Drizzt novel, and knowing RAS as they obviously did, he relented and and started pumping them out again. They used the man's ego against him - talk about pushing the right buttons.
You're confusing some of the details, MT.
I don't know if Bob exactly tried to stop writing about Drizzt and the Companions after "The Dark Elf Trilogy", but he was certainly happy to try another group of characters with "The Cleric Quintet". Supposedly fan uproar caused TSR and Bob to pick up the Drizzt stories once again during the middle of all that, and thus was "Legacy of the Drow" born.
I've never heard that Bob was done with the tale at the end of the novel Siege of Darkness, either. Wulf was apparently dead, and Drizzt and Cat were leaving Mithral Hall for some maritime adventure, but I've never read that Bob tried to end it all, right there.
What I have heard is that TSR wanted Wulf to come back, and in addition, they wanted Bob to up his novel and short story count to boot. Drizzt's bestseller status and profits apparently were needed to bail them out of their financial troubles, and I guess they thought Wulf the barbarian was an important part of the formula for success.
Bob wasn't happy with this. He has said that he wasn't sure what he wanted to do with Wulf, or if the guy was even really dead, or just abducted. But Bob was really uncomfortable with TSR pressuring him to churn out more stories even faster than before. (If you don't like the Drizzt books that we have, today, just imagine if a disgruntled Bob had been forced to put one out every nine months, plus multiple short stories each year, or whatever.)
Then TSR went a step beyond merely threatening to bring in another author: they actually published a Drizzt short story by another author ("The Fires of Narbondel", in Realms of the Underdark, complete with Matron Malice serving tea and crumpets to a stinking goblin, and Zaknafein scaling and descending the pillar Narbondel twice {that's four trips} in the space of about 10-15 minutes, with time to spare to find an historical artifact); and had another author include a Drizzt chapter in a novel (Once Around the Realms, with an anachronistically morose Drizzt inexplicably out on some ship without any of his Companions where he just so happened to be present to save the impostor Volo from drowning). Neither was very good; the latter was even subsequently dubbed "Apocrypha" by WOTC, it was so bad. So when TSR threatened to contract one of those same authors to write a complete Drizzt novel (The Shores of Dusk), and even posted ads for it in the magazines, it clearly wasn't an idle threat.
And, actually, Bob didn't just start pumping out Drizzt novels again when TSR pulled all this. He wrote Passage to Dawn, which undid a bunch of stuff and stuck all the Companions back in Icewind Dale, completely the heck away from Mithral Hall and Silverymoon and everything else, effectively resetting the characters back to the beginning, and fulfilling his existing contract.
Then he started writing his non-Realms "DemonWars" series for DelRey.
Meanwhile, the game designers had a heyday writing about the goings-on with the Companions (namely Bruenor) during Bob's absence, completely ignoring/disregarding Passage to Dawn. So other people were still writing new "Drizzt" stories/lore/etc. behind the man's back.
It was only years later that WOTC took over from TSR and coaxed Bob (and Drizzt) back into the fold, with The Silent Blade. I guess you could say that he's been pumping them out since then.
But it was a headache reconciling where he'd left off with the Companions in Passage to Dawn and what all the game designers had done with the characters afterwards, as evidenced by past confusion over all the Silver Marches and Obould lore. (And I think I've just about got all that done, no thanks to anybody else around here at the 'Keep.  )
There was more involved here than just ego, MT. There were strongarm tactics, facilitated interlopers, and disregard for the author's own personal vision for the characters.
I'm sure that's all Bob's and Drizzt's fault, though. 
Wasn't there also a monetary dispute involved? As in, TSR wasn't paying out money owed to RAS? |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 01:53:36
Lolth on Billy and Mandy?! ROFLMAO!!! I want to watch that now. I got a good laugh out of an Order of the Stick comic that parodied Drizzt, too. And There was a great Nodwick one-page comic way back in an issue of Dragon that was hilarious. The group gets arrested by a drow Matron for destroying Lolth's citadel, and to get off the hook, they end up giving her access to another plane where resides a "person of interest". It ends up being Spider-Man, and she's chasing him around New York as a potential mate! That comic actually gave me the idea for my Drizzt/Spidey cross-over story a few years back. Proving your point, MT, that you can get great ideas from almost anything! |
| Merrith |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 01:36:25
MT, you really should go get Gauntlgrym. I've loved the series since I started reading it but I'll also be the first to admit it felt tired and stale with only a few brighter spots in Orc King, Pirate King, and Ghost King. I loved the novels focusing on Jarlaxle and Entreri so much it was jarring to go back to "same old same old". In a way those books had to be written to eventually get it over the hump and into new territory...and Gauntlgrym both hints at and fully brings Drizzt into new territory. Even Athrogate has grown on me and a lot of it has to do with the depth the character has been given. Jarlaxle himself while always having so many facets to his personality and motives reveals even more of himself and his relationship to Drizzt in the new book. Certain new (heh and "sorta" new) characters also add a lot to the book. This was the one that got me interested in the character again, because he's starting to find he has darker tendencies that his losses are bringing to the fore.
Believe me I was tired of the Companions of the Hall by the end of Ghost King, but Gauntlgrym has restored my faith that his story will actually move on to something different and at this point more interesting. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 01:24:08
Xanth rocked when I was 16 - I ran my whole GH campaign based off of those books (my kingdom for a pun!)
SoT was a great novel... it went downhill from there. Some of the things in the first few books I have adapted to my Realms game (C'mon.... Mord Sith!)
Wheel of time also started out awesome, but Jorden tried to run in a hundred directions at once, which left the reader thoroughly confused by 6th or 7th book. He should have completed the main storyline, and then worked on side-stories of other characters within his well-developed world. You can serve-up gourmet food, but if you try to lay it all out at once you wind up with the buffet at Sizzler.
Eatable... but not so hot.
Some of his concepts were great, but you only caught glimpses of them as the fifty or so separate stories took over chapter after chapter. He needed to learn restraint - sometimes less is more.
On the other hand, I don't think I have ever not walked away with at least one idea from something I read or watched, no matter how bad. I saw the Spider Queen episode of Billy and Mandy a little while ago (with my kids), and as stupid as it was I found it kinda cool that she was an amazing singer. Imagine a hideous spider demon, that sings like an angel. I would definitely use that.
Proving there is no such thing as 'bad lore' - a grain of goodness can be distilled from anything. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 01:08:44
Actually, the short story in RotU was RAS. It was a sort or pre-prequel from Drizzt's early years (still a kid). Zak did indeed ascend and descend Narbondel- on the INSIDE. Apparently, the clock-pillar serves as a tomb for the first Matron of Menzo. The funny thing about that particular story is that Drizzy was barely even in it. It is mostly about Zaknafein retrieving an ancient dagger from the tomb, then getting himself in hot water with Malice when he loses it again, and Drizzt seems to save the day- inadvertently- when he "finds" it via a scrying bowl in the family vault. It was a sort of foreshadow of some of the stuff mentioned in the Hunter's Blade books about him having Lolth's favor.
I'm kinda sorry that he's had to put up with so much crap from both TSR and WotC over the years. I'm seriously considering whether I want to read the new book, simply because I was so unhappy with the last one. And never let it be said htat Bob does not know how to kill of a character permanently. He did so in rather spectacular fashion in Vector Prime- where he killed off Chewbacca, and supposedly got tons of hate mail and even a few death threats for it! Yikes. Maybe he's a little afraid of the same happening with Drizzt? I might be, in his shoes.... |
| Quale |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 23:38:18
Xanth, Sword of Truth or WoT, comparing that I can see how any 4e novel, or next fifty Drizzt novels, would be a better choice |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 23:10:29
No, in the grand scheme of things, RAS is 'the lesser of two evils'.
And that wasn't a fake Volo - that was the real Volo trying to prove he was the real Volo, and all the lore in that book (despite how truly bad it is) is reconcilable.
Either way, 'the no idle threat' thing is correct - I know another novel was contracted. I never read Realms of the Underdark, but if it was as bad as you imply I'm glad I didn't (I find the Underdark rather boring - I have more then enough to keep my players busy on the surface). was the author of the short story the same as the one contracted for the novel?
I still think he should have left Cadderly dead, but whatever. He's still a great writer and I still continue to read him.
And I stopped reading Xanth novels after Centaur Isle, and stopped reading Thieves World novels when they started generating multiple (and conflicting) spin-offs that took place FAR from sanctuary. I've also decided I'm done with the Sword of Boredom... err... Truth. And if the next WoT novel wasn't the last I probably would quit that as well.
I can't stand when stories are drawn-out long after the franchise has atrophied. No more Matrix - let characters live 'happily ever after' and move on to a new group of adventurers. Even Shrek has grown stale.
So I guess what I'm saying is that if Drizzt didn't live in the Realms, I'd be hard-pressed to convince myself to continue reading about him (despite the quality of Bob's writing).
The Realms are MASSIVE, and their story is far from complete. There are a thousand thousand stories still to be told just in the 1e-3e era, and we can add to that about 30,000+ years of history and a century of 'future' to fill-in. We don't need to keep hearing about the same exact groups of characters over and over again (and that's directed at all the authors and their 'pets').
Case in point - I am currently enjoying Rich Baker's Blades of the Moonsea. New cast of characters in a fresh locale never before high-lighted in a Realms tale. If he writes 20 more in this area about these people I may grow tired of it, but right now this is exactly the kinds of stories the Realms needs.
And please note it takes place in the 4e era... and I don't mind at all. 
Don't make a big deal about re-booting the Realms, and then hand us a slew of novels about old characters. It makes you look like you are doing nothing but shoveling rhetoric at the fans. Give us new heroes for the new realms, or just go back to the old Realms - you can't have it both ways. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 20:48:46
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In his defense, he DID try to stop writing Drizzt novels.
They threatened to have another author write a Drizzt novel, and knowing RAS as they obviously did, he relented and and started pumping them out again. They used the man's ego against him - talk about pushing the right buttons.
You're confusing some of the details, MT.
I don't know if Bob exactly tried to stop writing about Drizzt and the Companions after "The Dark Elf Trilogy", but he was certainly happy to try another group of characters with "The Cleric Quintet". Supposedly fan uproar caused TSR and Bob to pick up the Drizzt stories once again during the middle of all that, and thus was "Legacy of the Drow" born.
I've never heard that Bob was done with the tale at the end of the novel Siege of Darkness, either. Wulf was apparently dead, and Drizzt and Cat were leaving Mithral Hall for some maritime adventure, but I've never read that Bob tried to end it all, right there.
What I have heard is that TSR wanted Wulf to come back, and in addition, they wanted Bob to up his novel and short story count to boot. Drizzt's bestseller status and profits apparently were needed to bail them out of their financial troubles, and I guess they thought Wulf the barbarian was an important part of the formula for success.
Bob wasn't happy with this. He has said that he wasn't sure what he wanted to do with Wulf, or if the guy was even really dead, or just abducted. But Bob was really uncomfortable with TSR pressuring him to churn out more stories even faster than before. (If you don't like the Drizzt books that we have, today, just imagine if a disgruntled Bob had been forced to put one out every nine months, plus multiple short stories each year, or whatever.)
Then TSR went a step beyond merely threatening to bring in another author: they actually published a Drizzt short story by another author ("The Fires of Narbondel", in Realms of the Underdark, complete with Matron Malice serving tea and crumpets to a stinking goblin, and Zaknafein scaling and descending the pillar Narbondel twice {that's four trips} in the space of about 10-15 minutes, with time to spare to find an historical artifact); and had another author include a Drizzt chapter in a novel (Once Around the Realms, with an anachronistically morose Drizzt inexplicably out on some ship without any of his Companions where he just so happened to be present to save the impostor Volo from drowning). Neither was very good; the latter was even subsequently dubbed "Apocrypha" by WOTC, it was so bad. So when TSR threatened to contract one of those same authors to write a complete Drizzt novel (The Shores of Dusk), and even posted ads for it in the magazines, it clearly wasn't an idle threat.
And, actually, Bob didn't just start pumping out Drizzt novels again when TSR pulled all this. He wrote Passage to Dawn, which undid a bunch of stuff and stuck all the Companions back in Icewind Dale, completely the heck away from Mithral Hall and Silverymoon and everything else, effectively resetting the characters back to the beginning, and fulfilling his existing contract.
Then he started writing his non-Realms "DemonWars" series for DelRey.
Meanwhile, the game designers had a heyday writing about the goings-on with the Companions (namely Bruenor) during Bob's absence, completely ignoring/disregarding Passage to Dawn. So other people were still writing new "Drizzt" stories/lore/etc. behind the man's back.
It was only years later that WOTC took over from TSR and coaxed Bob (and Drizzt) back into the fold, with The Silent Blade. I guess you could say that he's been pumping them out since then.
But it was a headache reconciling where he'd left off with the Companions in Passage to Dawn and what all the game designers had done with the characters afterwards, as evidenced by past confusion over all the Silver Marches and Obould lore. (And I think I've just about got all that done, no thanks to anybody else around here at the 'Keep. )
There was more involved here than just ego, MT. There were strongarm tactics, facilitated interlopers, and disregard for the author's own personal vision for the characters.
I'm sure that's all Bob's and Drizzt's fault, though. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 06:44:39
Would he stay dead? Dunno. Guess it depends on how it happens. Wulfgar and Bruenor were both thought dead at one time, but there fates were left open enough that it was never proven that they had died. Which left plenty of wiggle room to bring them back. he Superman analogy isn't too far off, either. Faerun is a shared world, much like the Marvel and DC universes are these days. Sooner or later, other writers are going to pick up the torches of certain characters, and as long as they can at least half-way believably do so, they will continue the stories of those characters. Which brings me to...
I've read the first two of Gino's books, and guess what? They were pretty good! Yes, Drizzt is in them to a degree, but they center on a young boy with a strange connection to an artifact called the Stone of Tymora. They also happen mostly on the Sea Sprite, (before Deuder's death, obviously) and in or around Calimshan and various other Sword Coast locales. I understand that a lot of people have grown a little bored with Drizzt, but how is it any different than- say- characters in Xanth? Piers Anthony has written well over thirty novels on the same small group of characters (with additions to the extended family and friends) over the years. Drizzt, being an elf is quite naturally going to be around for a long time, especially considering how young he still is. (I'm referring to just after the Spellplauge, not the fact that he's still around 100 years later.) Call it milking if you want, but he's a well-loved character, which means that as long as fans want to see more of him, there will BE more of him. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 05:59:39
Sad but true, the money people will not let him die. They haven't milked the drow enough, in spite of him having no udder. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 04:55:50
And you think if he killed Drizzt, they'd allow him to stay dead? Our poor little Emo Drow is stuck in the same hell RAS is.
I think killing him and bringing him back in some silly manner (Superman, anyone?) would be so anti-climactic, and so much worse then a never-ending series of Drow novels until the end of time.
Perhaps this is why RAS is grooming his son as an author? I saw his kid's novel on the shelf at the discount bookstore when I was there last week. Hope he's better then Tolkien's son - talent is not necessarily hereditary.
On the bright side, Drow don't live as long as other Elves - he's got to die of old age sometime. Oh... wait... forgot what he did with Artemis. 'Shade-Drizzt'... in 3D.  |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 04:08:23
So what IS option C? And I'm not sure what the afterlife has to do with anything. Unless you were referring to Cadderly's task. But he kinda got shafted into that one, IMO. Stuck doing containment on a nasty all-powerful undead? That's not an afterlife- that's a sentence... As for Cat and Regis, they seemed pretty happy in their little afterlife or whatever. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 04:01:58
Shush you, there's still an option C.
Besides, who says the afterlife has to spent sitting under a celestial tree enjoying the shade? |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 02:01:51
@ Lady Fellshot: That really only works if you're not doing shared-world novel series or comic books. For either of those, to continue to be successful, it's more prudent to keep them alive. Kinda hard to write a comic story about a hero who is dead... Heroes like Drizzt are pretty much the same. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 01:46:00
quote:
If you've put that much creative effort into something, and someone threatens to give it to someone else if you don't keep writing (even if you've basically told all the tales you wanted to) which would YOU choose?
I thought the standard practice was to "kill your darlings" so that it can't happen as easily. There's always an "option C."  |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 01:42:08
Ah! MT, I think you've hit it close to the head there. I would be the first to jump on a Jarlaxle prequel. And as far as killing Cadderly off, he is now QUITE "dead" in the sense that he's stuck for eternity guarding that darn dracolich. I really don't see him coming back from that. What's more, there was a very tearful moment at the end of that last book where Drizzt KNEW that Cat and Regis were gone for good. I don't see any wa he could realistically rach them, much less bring them back. Does it really matter how long it took? There were still stories to tell with both of them. PErsonally, I liked seeing Cat grow from more than just the requisite female character, and I would have like to see more on how she was growing as a wizard, though for the life of me, I can't figure out why she chose that particular path, other than respect for Alustriel. I would have liked to see that part told better, to be honest. But Drizzt really IS good at what he does. How else could he have survived alone in the Underdark for ten years? For that matter, he was actually acknowledged by just about everyone in Menzo as the BEST fighter there, even better than Zaknafein, who was counted the best Weapon Master. It's no wonder he has fared so well. Yes, he gets lucky (I wonder if that comment from that one drw priestes about Lolth favoring him might be true?) but he still takes his lumps, and has only survived this long because of Cat's intervention. TWICE she has given him potions to save his life when he was dying- in Menzo after he was tortured, and then when he and Ellifein "killed" each other. So, if anything, Cattie-Brie is the reason he is still around. No wonder he loved her so much. RAS seems to be leading things up to a new and harder Drizzt, with less "emo" stuff.
Athrogate seems like an interesting- if rather quirky- character to me. Why he sticks around with Jarlaxle is anybody's guess. But as annoying as he can be, he sort of grew on me. Just like Pikel. There are still plenty of characters left in the toy-box. Personally, if they "used his ego against him", I really cannot say I blame the man. Unfortunately, when other writers get their hands on a pre-existing character, they tend to mangle them badly, or simply do not present them as well as the creator does. They don't know all the stuff that the original creator does abut that character, like what's his favorite food or color, does he have any hobbies, or any of a hundred other details that never make it into print, but are still important to the character. It's the same reason Mike Mignola will not give up rights to Hellboy- he doesn't want to see his character ruined by some studio writer's idea of what he should be. RAS is probably just as protective of his "baby". I would be, too. If you've put that much creative effort into something, and someone threatens to give it to someone else if you don't keep writing (even if you've basically told all the tales you wanted to) which would YOU choose?
I'm not saying Drizzt is still as great as when he started. he has seemed a bit more bland in the last few books- but he has stayed true to character, and that is a rare thing. |
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