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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 11:47:47
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I've noticed they've kept the identity of the Shalarin's aquatic deity pantheon secretive everytime it was brought up. Was there ever any evidence as to who is part of this pantheon and/or why they've been silent?
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 15:42:31
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The original shalarin gods were in a different crystal sphere, and had no access to the Realms. From a Realms perspective, they didn't exist. As a result, the shalarin quickly adpoted a mishmash of Realms deities from a variety of pantheons, mostly human.
In the time between the fourth and fifth wildtide gates, the gods of the shalarin went silent, and a cult took its place worshipping something called Dagon (if Dagon is mentioned elsewhere, I don't know it. So it looks like we never will know who the original gods were. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 10:32:53
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| Dagon is a semitic god of fertility and grains that was later represented as a fish god. In the bible he is considered a pagan deity, being the deity of the Philistines. In 1e AD&D, he is then accounted as one of the major demons of the Abyss, and afterwards - in 2e - I think he was considered one of the Abyssal Lords. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 30 Jan 2012 17:14:38 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 05:35:37
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| The Shalarin were not from another crystal sphere, but were actually from the other side of Toril. They were native to the Sea of Corynactis which was somewhere to the west of Maztica. They were native Torilians. The Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook p.56 tells us that some of their gods were the same as Faerūnian gods, just known by different names. However, some of the gods that held power in the Sea of Cornactis did not extend into Seros's geo-political sphere of influence, and so could not answer the prayers of the Shalarin who gated into Seros. Those gods were forgotten. They were not named. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 19:20:23
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I've never bought the idea that the shalarin are from any ocean on Toril, or anywhere else within Realmspace, because the rules for godly spheres of influence laid out in Faiths and Avatars wouldn't have any problem with following their worshippers to the other side of the planet. They're a racial pantheon following a migration of their race. If the shalarin were from Toril, their gods would already have a connection to the sphere and could follow without any fuss, the same way the elven gods or dwarven gods seemlessly overlap the territories of the human pantheon.
Since this didn't happen, IMO, it means that the Sea of Corynactis is somewhere in a different sphere, whose godly inhabitants weren't able to follow the migration. The only source for it being on Toril is GHotR, which has a number of other questionable calls in its later pages. And what Sea of Fallen Stars actually says about the shalarin gods is that the shalarin adopted gods already in Toril when they arrived and their old gods were silent; all they did was change the names to make them fit with shalarin naming conventions. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 05:30:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
The only source for it being on Toril is GHotR, which has a number of other questionable calls in its later pages.
The Grand History is not the origin source for this lore. It comes from the Shalarin entry in Monsters of Faerūn (2001) p.76. It's then repeated in the novel Queen of the Depths (2005) p.26 and Dragon 355 (2007): Demon Cults of the Realms p.72
Care to share which other events you consider to be questionable? I assure you, the Grand History is one of the most meticulously researched products Wizards of the Coast has ever released. Take a second look at the loremasters involved in its design. You'd be hard pressed to find better subject matter experts on the Forgotten Realms.
That's not to say there are not any errors in the Grand History, but your post is pretty dismissive and makes it seem like the sourcebook is riddled with them and should not be trusted. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
Edited by - Brian R. James on 07 Feb 2012 05:33:27 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 09:50:25
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And let's not forget that some historic info in the Realms, being written independently, was contradictory, and there was a huge effort to make it a concise work. I've been using GHotR extensively, and it is the only FR book I bought in many years, even if it's not perfect.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 16:48:14
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That was more a backhanded insult to the last page, that set up 4e. But I've been trying the past few years to restrain myself from going on 4e rants. I do consider GHotR to be a very good product and compilation up to its last few pages. Then it becomes down-right insulting.
And I stand by what I said about it not making any sense for the shalarin to have come from Faerun. If it was first mentioned in Monsters of Faerun, well, then that's one more problem I have with 3e. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 17:03:20
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Believe me, the 4E transition events included in the Grand History were as much a surprise to me as they were to all of you.
I hear what you're saying about the Shalarin lore, but these sort of conundrums come up all the time in Realmslore.
In your home campaign you're obviously free to do whatever you desire, but as I designer it's my job to reconcile the discrepancies. Ignoring a piece of lore, no matter how much you disagree with it, should only be adopted as a last resort (again, as a designer).
So, with that in mind I'd love to hear suggestions as to why the Shalarin gods could not answer their faithful's prayers in Seros. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 18:50:58
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Hmm. Well, the obvious answer to that would be that the existing Serosian gods blocked them. Which of course leads to the question why?
Conjecture: Es'rath is the oldest of the shalarin duchies. It's where the Wildtide Gate is located. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to assume that it remains closest to the "original" version of shalarin culture in Corynactis. It's the most toxic of the shalarin courts, and the other, more enlightened or "good" duchies could have been formed in part as a reaction against it.
If we accept that Es'rath is more in line with the general shalarin culture in Corynactis, it stands to reason that the gods of the shalarin are probably a fairly dark bunch. Lots of neutral-to-evil deities of intrigue, spying, magic, etc.
Now consider that the shalarin first appeared during one of Seros's darkest hours, when both the merfolk and the sea elves were under the sway of insane and evil rulers. The various Serosian gods probably had their hands full trying to keep everything from completely falling apart, and couldn't afford to spend the effort of integrating, and then fending off, a new, dark pantheon, which would probably arrive both energetic and angry.
So they blocked the transfer of the shalarin gods, either directly, or by successfully petitioning Ao. Considering how out of balance things were in Seros at the time, Ao would likely have been favorably inclined. And as a result, not only are the shalarin gods blocked, but they have to turn to the existing gods instead, both strengthening the gods and giving them a chance to moderate the shalarins' natures. Which, considering the cultures of the other three duchies, they were rather successful at.
How's that? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 21:45:12
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I happen to think that was one of the worst new entries in the GHoR - they missed a golden opportunity to tie-in Abeir to old lore, and completely blew it.
The perfect example of 'subractive lore' (lore designed to curtail your possibilities, rather then expand upon them). In other words, it does not achieve anything positive - it simply exists as barrier.
Does anyone have a link to that great RPG design article, about that? I used to have it saved... I used to have a lot of things saved...
I also found the lineages to be a bit... indulgent. Not everyone cares about such things, and sticking it in the center (so that you have to thumb-past it hundreds of times) was just annoying. It would have been better off in a Web Enhancement.
On the other hand, I would love to see a deluxe-edition, re-edited version (with new art) for 5e. Brian, have you kept a list of things that needed fixing? You know... like Titans doing stuff before they were even created?
And to steer this back on-topic, It might actually have been a smart move to NOT put the Sea of Corynactis on Abeir, if they decide to get rid of Abeir in 5e, that would have been a future continuity glitch. I don't like it being on Toril, but if it means getting rid of that useless baggage (that is Abeir), then I can live with that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 22:36:25
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I don't see why they had to define where Corynactis was at all. Just say that it's an ocean unknown to sages in Seros, and leave it at that. Let the DM fill in wherever they want. For instance, for a while I was toying with the idea of Corynactis being one of the seas around Zakhara, and replacing the canon reference to a locathah civilization with shalarin, since I find the shalarin more interesting than locathah.
Sorry to hear you lost the link, Markus. Did something happen? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 23:58:56
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LOL... yeah...
My house burned down. 
Thought everyone knew by now.
Anyhow, thats exactly my point Hoondatha - it was more useful left open-ended. By 'closing' the lore, they took away nearly all of its usefulness (which is what that article was about).
I found the article here, in one of the forums - too bad the search function wasn't such a dinosaur (its practically useless when it finds something in Ed;s threads). Anyhow, someone posted the link originally, so I'm hoping they still have it (and remember it). It basically said that the 1e method - "inaccurate 3rd person reporting" was the perfect way to present lore in for an RGP setting. The fluff should be springboards, not dead-ends. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Feb 2012 00:00:27 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 00:01:47
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Ow. Sorry to hear that. I hadn't heard, though that makes several of your off-hand remarks make a whole lot more sense now. 
I remember the article you're talking about. Unfortunately, I didn't bookmark it, and I don't even remember who it was by. So I can't help there. Sorry. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 02:09:33
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To me, canon is what is printed in the sourcebooks. Since the books say that the Sea of Corynactis is on Toril, there's no point in trying to convince me that it's on another planet. You might as well try to convince me that Madagascar is located on Mars. You might have a wonderful argument as to why it works better there, but it doesn't change established facts.
I don't have a cut-off date for Realmslore. Some of the best Realmslore was written in 3e. And there's some beautiful lore written in 4e too (most notably by Brian James.) Part of playing in a sandbox world is being graceful about letting all the different writers play with your favorite toys. Sometimes your toys will get broken. But in general there are so many more toys to play with. And some kids bring some really nice ones. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 02:34:13
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As to why some Shalarin gods could not transmit spells to their worshipers in Seros, I have a couple ideas.
Faiths & Avatars p.4 says "The powers active on Abeir-Toril have broken the surface of the world up into different areas over which they have spheres of influence. Different pantheon groups, for want of a better term, have dominion over different areas of the globe... A pantheon holds ultimate sway within its own sphere of influence (if it is uncontested). Priests from other pantheons may cross into its sphere of influence, receive spells, and remain relatively unnoticed and unmolested by the deities whose sphere of influence they are in provided they do not attempt to convert the inhabitants of the region, set up a temple, or engage in a holy war. Any of these last activities provokes a pantheon to act in its own self-interest."
I do like Hoondatha's explanation. A massive influx of worshipers from another geo-political sphere of influence could certainly have been seen as a challenge to the divine status quo in Seros. In response, the local gods probably took action. I don't see why they couldn't find a way to block access to the intruding gods. Like the Eastern Bloc jammed radio signals from the West during the Cold War. Or like some modern denial of service attack on a web site.
But another interesting possibility could be a side effect from the Imaskari God Barier. While intended to block gods from outside the Crystal Sphere from interfering on Toril, there may have been unintended consequences that affected transmission of divine power across the surface of Toril, or through the boundaries of geo-political spheres of godly influence.
Or... what if these consequences were not so unintended after all? What if some gods, particularly the magic gods (Mystra, Savras, Azuth, or even Auppenser) tweaked the Imaskari barrier to help protect their own spheres of influence, finding secret ways to tune or manipulate the god barrier to prevent other gods from gaining power in their territory.
I find it a plausible notion that Azuth or Savras or Oghma or even Deneir could have hacked the magic-tech of the god barrier for undisclosed purposes and with (as yet) unrevealed effects. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that one or more gods had hacked mythals, mythalars or other epic-level magical infrastructure to do some surprising things. Come to think of it, isn't there a mythal in Seros they could have used too? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 14:17:38
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Well, the answer to your conjecture on the Shalarin gods is rooted in an unfinished DUNGEON submission that was under development by Eric Boyd. It was called "Eddies of the Shadowsea" and no doubt would have been finished and published if not for the advent of 4E.
As I don't think it matters too much now, here is a relevant excerpt which provides you with the answer to your question. Whether it "works" for you, is another matter entirely:
"Prince of Darkened Depths"
Eldest of Those Who Sleep is Dagon, Prince of Darkened Depths. For centuries the obyrith demon lord has plotted to obliterate an entire pantheon of aquatic gods on the far side of Abeir-Toril by depriving them of their worshipers in hopes of acquiring their divine power.
First, the Prince of Darkened Depths prepared an elaborate and deadly trap, setting in motion events beneath the surface of the Sea of Fallen Stars that would place armies in his service in control of the undersea depths. Then, drawing on eldritch magics long forgotten, Dagon restricted the influence of the deities venerated by the shalarin, who dwell in the Sea of Corynactis on the far side of Abeir-Toril, to the confines of the shalarin homeland. With his trap thus prepared, the Prince of Darkened Depths unleashed the first of five wild tides, the goal of which was to sweep large numbers of shalarin into the Sea of Fallen Stars (and out of the Sea of Corynactis) where they could be destroyed by Dagons readied armies beyond the reach of their gods.
Eric had more than a few unfinished projects that never saw fruition. As I recall he had a fantastic adventure half-written to do with Dragonspear Castle which tied in lots of old lore.
Wouldn't it be marvellous if 5E could bring him back to the FR fold ... ?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 09 Feb 2012 14:18:22 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 14:48:09
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| Wonderful lore, Mr. Krashos. And I'd be very interested in this Dragonspear Castle development, I think this place is usually underestimated by publishers and writers alike. (Have it appeared in any novel besides the original Avatar series?) |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 16:12:14
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| Huh. Interesting. Well, if Dagon's plan was to get shalarin into the Sea of Fallen Stars where they'd have no choice but to worship him, I'd say it failed pretty spectacularly. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 16:37:20
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| Well, actually, according Mr. Krashos, this wasn't Dagon's intention. He wanted to kill the shalarin, thus weakening their gods and taking their divine power, the way I understood it. Probably, with the survival of the first shalarin, the demon abandoned his plan. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 23:53:17
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Thanks for the info everyone, sorry about the long wait for a reply, so busy lately.
Interesting lore, I was just always curious about seas besides the Sea of Fallen Stars and the Sword Coast. It's as if those two were the only ones Realms designers cared about and it'd have been great for a FR book dedicated to a variety of Underwater Realms (besides the 2e Sea of Fallen Stars book, which concentrates on ONE sea).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
LOL... yeah...
My house burned down.
Thought everyone knew by now.
Anyhow, thats exactly my point Hoondatha - it was more useful left open-ended. By 'closing' the lore, they took away nearly all of its usefulness (which is what that article was about).
I found the article here, in one of the forums - too bad the search function wasn't such a dinosaur (its practically useless when it finds something in Ed;s threads). Anyhow, someone posted the link originally, so I'm hoping they still have it (and remember it). It basically said that the 1e method - "inaccurate 3rd person reporting" was the perfect way to present lore in for an RGP setting. The fluff should be springboards, not dead-ends.
That's news to me. Glad no one was hurt. Wow, my hometown fire department apparently had to help, too (used to live in Brentwood for a few years and then moved and lived in Central Islip from age 9 to when I left for Missouri at age 20). |
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The Shalarin Gods?
