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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 15 Nov 2021 :  01:40:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Got this book yesterday, and I'm doing a kinda in-depth flip-through right now (more than just flipping pages, but not reading every page).

I've already decided that Fizban is going to have to be given the unreliable narrator treatment on a lot of stuff... much as with a lot of other 5E lore.

One thing in the book that I found interesting was tying draconic power to their hoards. Not that I like the idea; I just found its inclusion interesting.

Tolkien gave us -- or at least made popular -- the idea of a dragon having such a bond with its hoard that it knew the contents to the last copper and could tell if anything, even just a cup, was removed.

But -- at least in the Lord of the Rings -- he didn't make the dragon's power dependent on its hoard.

The first place I saw that was in the Council of Wyrms setting... Which again makes me wonder if that's going to be one of our upcoming settings.

Also, the whole multiversal dragons thing, particularly with Ashardalon slaying other versions of himself to get more powerful... Ugh. I think this idea is a horrible fit for fantasy. The Jet Li movie with the same premise was decent, not great, and certainly not something to take inspiration from. I'm ranking that whole concept up there with the concepts of beholders dreaming other beholders into existence and hyenas spontaneously transforming into gnolls: proof that a lot more editorial direction is needed at WotC. Someone there needs to learn that just because someone has a thought, it doesn't need to make it into print.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11168 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  13:15:49  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Got this book yesterday, and I'm doing a kinda in-depth flip-through right now (more than just flipping pages, but not reading every page).

I've already decided that Fizban is going to have to be given the unreliable narrator treatment on a lot of stuff... much as with a lot of other 5E lore.

One thing in the book that I found interesting was tying draconic power to their hoards. Not that I like the idea; I just found its inclusion interesting.

Tolkien gave us -- or at least made popular -- the idea of a dragon having such a bond with its hoard that it knew the contents to the last copper and could tell if anything, even just a cup, was removed.

But -- at least in the Lord of the Rings -- he didn't make the dragon's power dependent on its hoard.

The first place I saw that was in the Council of Wyrms setting... Which again makes me wonder if that's going to be one of our upcoming settings.

Also, the whole multiversal dragons thing, particularly with Ashardalon slaying other versions of himself to get more powerful... Ugh. I think this idea is a horrible fit for fantasy. The Jet Li movie with the same premise was decent, not great, and certainly not something to take inspiration from. I'm ranking that whole concept up there with the concepts of beholders dreaming other beholders into existence and hyenas spontaneously transforming into gnolls: proof that a lot more editorial direction is needed at WotC. Someone there needs to learn that just because someone has a thought, it doesn't need to make it into print.



Yeah, as I look through the book, I get the feeling that so much of this is like the experimental work I do here.... throwing ideas against the wall as options. However, there are a lot of options that they throw out there that "you can just add" to a dragon that they should have gone a step further and said "and when you DO add this option it raises the CR of the challenge by X amount or by this formula". Its full of a lot of noncommital ideas, including things like "dragons give birth via any of these multiple ideas, and you should pick one and apply it to your world".

Now, that being said, I know what I just said is going to kind of sound odd as I ask this next question, but we have different types of dragons on Toril. One major faction of them are the Lung Dragons of Kara-Tur. Another unique factor of that region (at least in 3e, the last visit to the region) is that the spirit world is coterminous to that region. Would it be a good, bad, or neither idea to have it that the Lung Dragons actually come from the spirit world to Kara-Tur, and they are spontaneously formed in the spirit world from the spirits of dead dragons or from the spirit of the land, etc....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
35998 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  13:31:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Now, that being said, I know what I just said is going to kind of sound odd as I ask this next question, but we have different types of dragons on Toril. One major faction of them are the Lung Dragons of Kara-Tur. Another unique factor of that region (at least in 3e, the last visit to the region) is that the spirit world is coterminous to that region. Would it be a good, bad, or neither idea to have it that the Lung Dragons actually come from the spirit world to Kara-Tur, and they are spontaneously formed in the spirit world from the spirits of dead dragons or from the spirit of the land, etc....



I don't see an issue with having the lung dragons come from the spirit world, as powerful manifestations of place/nature spirits. I'd shy away from the spirits of dead dragons, though.

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HighOne
Learned Scribe

172 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  18:43:10  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertI've already decided that Fizban is going to have to be given the unreliable narrator treatment on a lot of stuff... much as with a lot of other 5E lore.
I think this is part of the plan. Wizards wants to muddy the lore waters enough that the entire concept of official canon or lore just goes away; there will be so many conflicting, contradictory accounts for every subject that no one can point to any one as definitive. That way, Wizards can publish pretty much anything they want, and they won't have to worry about continuity anymore. Heck, we're already halfway there.
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5935 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  18:57:31  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They already achieved their goal but I think it is having the unintended consequence of nobody cares about what lore they publish anymore. I suspect people will buy the books for rules but when it comes to the lore and a setting what would be the point.

Bit of an own goal really.

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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
2249 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  19:41:30  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You said that, but there is a lot of new gen players and DMs who really loves the 5e lore. I have to admit that there is stuff in the Fizban's book that make sense to me. I'll ignore the rest

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5935 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  19:56:26  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reading various reddits I see a lot of next gen players who dont care much for the new lore at all. Even they have spotted the inconsistencies.

Most seem to be of the opinion that they will take or leave what they want.

If you are designing a setting, the last thing you want to do is make some or any of your work disposable because it means it is no longer important to you or your customers.

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TBeholder
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2201 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  20:34:24  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As in... Fizban from Krynn? Who can trust anyone from that world to get any planar matters right?..
Of course, this goes double for the ones who do know better, but keep the local Clueless in confused and superstitious state for which they are infamous (Abyss, really?).

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Part of my theory of there being one Prime Material Plane, with infinite layers, is that there was originally just one layer, and other layers were modified copies.
Layers are sequential.
It's more like relationship between Ethereal and demiplanes. Demiplanes in some ways count as Ethereal, in other ways don't, and may have border (now, Border Ethereal is more like a layer).
Or maybe an elemental plane and native pockets (as in, plasma pockets on Lightning, vs. air pockets on Water). They are similar to "foreign matter" pockets in many ways, but are born of the plane, not brought from elsewhere.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 16 Nov 2021 20:38:10
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2249 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  21:11:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

As in... Fizban from Krynn? Who can trust anyone from that world to get any planar matters right?..



Yesn't. The Fizban of this book is a guise of Bahamut, not of Paladine. But the book says that Paladine may be just another name for Bahamut.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Nov 2021 21:14:35
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
35998 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  21:37:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

As in... Fizban from Krynn? Who can trust anyone from that world to get any planar matters right?..



Yesn't. The Fizban of this book is a guise of Bahamut, not of Paladine. But the book says that Paladine may be just another name for Bahamut.



I've decided to assume that Paladine and Takhisis are independent aspects of Bahamut and Tiamat. The two dragon deities spun off those aspects and basically disconnected from them, so Paladine and Takhisis then grew into their own entities.

(And they did this because Krynn's Prime is obviously somewhat disconnected from the Great Wheel... Not to the same extent as Eberron, but still separated from the standard planar configuration)

It's easier to play it that way than it is to try to reconcile Fizban being Bahamut. None of the deities of Krynn have been shown to be multispheric, so either we further retcon Dragonlance lore, or we get creative.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5935 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  22:09:42  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
if you read up on Bahamut through the various editions, independent aspects is exactly how it works.

Bahamut is an archtype, he lives on the outer planes, he is the platinum dragon.

On each world, worthy beings can become the platinum dragon. They become like the Platinum Dragon but they are not the Platinum Dragon, they are like a merged being with its own thoughts and feelings and personality entirely independent of "The Platinum Dragon". They are described as aspects.

So Marduk and Bahamut on Toril were separate beings, entirely independent of one another that worked towards similar ideals. Xymor was another independent aspect.

Tiamat the Dragon Queen and Tiamat the Queen of Chaos were also separate beings, independent aspects. Note the difference in appearance to show they were definitely not the same. The first Tiamat was also another aspect, and so was Nagamat.

Paladine and Takhisis are the same. They look like the archetype in some way, they act like him in some way, but they are independent beings.

When an aspect dies a new one can take their place but on Toril it may be that there can be multiple aspects in existence at the same time (and why not).

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sleyvas
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USA
11168 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2021 :  23:09:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Now, that being said, I know what I just said is going to kind of sound odd as I ask this next question, but we have different types of dragons on Toril. One major faction of them are the Lung Dragons of Kara-Tur. Another unique factor of that region (at least in 3e, the last visit to the region) is that the spirit world is coterminous to that region. Would it be a good, bad, or neither idea to have it that the Lung Dragons actually come from the spirit world to Kara-Tur, and they are spontaneously formed in the spirit world from the spirits of dead dragons or from the spirit of the land, etc....



I don't see an issue with having the lung dragons come from the spirit world, as powerful manifestations of place/nature spirits. I'd shy away from the spirits of dead dragons, though.



Maybe "indirectly" the spirit of dead dragons.... as in the dragons die, but their "spirits" don't go to the outer planes, and they "merge with the spirit world"..... later the spirit world uses that "energy" to make new lung dragons?? Could just as easily be "they form from the land of the spirit world".

Not a huge thing, but it did hit me as an idea in reading the book.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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35998 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2021 :  00:58:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This thing of gemstone dragons having bits of their bodies physical separated but still part of their body... Is this a new thing?

I don't recall seeing it before, and I can't say I like the idea for each member of a species. One-off cases, where the dragon is powerful psionically and the disconnected bit is a battle wound? Awesome! All gemstone dragons just naturally have disconnected bit? Beyond ridiculous.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11168 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2021 :  01:36:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

This thing of gemstone dragons having bits of their bodies physical separated but still part of their body... Is this a new thing?

I don't recall seeing it before, and I can't say I like the idea for each member of a species. One-off cases, where the dragon is powerful psionically and the disconnected bit is a battle wound? Awesome! All gemstone dragons just naturally have disconnected bit? Beyond ridiculous.



It's new to this, and I'd bet it's related to them being psionic.... kind of like how psions have psicrystals (and kind of like how we've posited here that psicrystals might actually be scales, etc.. of gem dragons). I agree though, it would be better if it were only like when they get older or somesuch.... maybe they start shedding parts of themselves and "hold themselves together" psychically or somesuch.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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