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The multiply yields/purge blights/banish molds-and-infestations/slay vermin spells Chauntea has given her clergy. These have never been properly covered in print because of space reasons (the same reason you haven't seen Goldenfields properly). When we do have product space, food-growing and harvest lore just isn't as "adventure-exciting" as other material. My original players can tell you, though, from vivid play experience in the 'home' Realms campaign, of their power and of the influence wielding them gives Chauntean clergy in all frontier/newly/lightly settled areas...and hence, the behavior (nurturing gardens, aving seeds, establishing extensive root cellars, various methods of food preservation, etc.) Chauntean clergy can force on folks in areas like the Savage Frontier.

These magical expand-yields forces are in addition to the tinkerings of mages already established in the game (why we have the bulette, etc.). So the land provides plentiful bounty...hence all the monsters (they all had to grow up to be this big and that fearsome, after all).

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

I agree that it makes sense for the nobles to own the land, and the peasants to pay them rent, but not be all the way serfs. I've been working on a system of making this region work, through a combination of ACKS rules and looking at agricultural analogues.

I've drawn up a draft of the land I think is reasonable for the noble families to own. In my head, the granting of a noble title is associated with a land grant. The further in the past the title was given, the more land was given: the Ulbrinters were given far more land under Ahghairon's rule than the Adarbrents were under Piergeiron, partially because there was less land left to give.

Here's my current thoughts:
http://kanzenau.deviantart.com/art/WIP-Waterdeep-Noble-Lands-641940191?ga_submit_new=10%253A1477318700

The land is divvied up by 6-mile-hex so that it works well with ACKS. I've had to change the assumptions of ACKS somewhat, but they seem to provide a reasonable amount of income to the noble families. The average fully-populated 6-mile-hex might produce about 7,776gp/month for a noble family, while the farming families on it maintain a lifestyle of 2sp/person/day (2.5x better the ACKS assumptions).

As far as the land division goes, I'm thinking of taking up some more land on the way down to Daggerford, as I imagine it would have been used.

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In the Waterdeep uplands (Goldenfields and similar temple-farms farmed by the resident clergy specifically excluded), the ratio is 82 percent owners to 18 percent tenants, but if you use the expanded definition, things shift only slightly (to 79 owners vs. 21 percent tenants).

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Originally posted on Twitter on Jan 11, 2017

Q:Reading "Elminster's Ecologies" on farm size - for a project of mine, any chance you could reveal the avg Waterdeep farm size?
Ed: No farms in Waterdeep proper. Goldenfields is HUGE. Most of the farms up the Amphail road are owned by nobles and farmed by tenants, and are small; i.e. a few fields, an orchard, and two grazing pastures/paddocks, rotated constantly so livestock manure fertilizes next year's tillage (orchards excepted, of course). Most fields in the Savage Coast North are measured in "bowshots" (yep, length of arrow shot from a bow), and of course that's WILDLY different from one archer + bow to the next. ;}

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Originally posted by THO in thread "Questions for Ed Greenwood (2008)" on May 2, 2008

I’m afraid I haven’t read that particular book, but I have studied history both academically and casually for about forty years, and have become very familiar with “what had implications when” regarding the stirrup, various forms of water pumps and ploughs, paper, local understanding of crop rotation and fertilization, etc. in the Dark Ages/medieval/Renaissance times in Europe. That sort of knowledge has shaped my ongoing creation of the Realms NOT as a “must ape real-world history here, and thus,” but as a deepening aid to understanding causes and effects and spreading implications (the ripples spreading out across the pool from where the flung stone plunges in). This in turn allows me to judge the wide social effects of particular magics, and so on.
Goldenfields is a vast walled temple-farm where hundreds of acres of fields are tended with zeal, full irrigation, and expertise matched nowhere else among humans regarding “companion planting” (carrots love tomatoes, et al). Tolgar Anuvien is the character you mention, and he trains and coordinates the priests under him in using spells he has crafted or perfected to banish blights, kill insect pests, and drive off such damaging predators as flocks of hungry birds, hungry bunnies, and burrowing voles - - and most importantly to affect temperature and moisture to avoid the killing frosts that afflict much of the moisture-abundant North, so crops inside Goldenfield’s walls don’t suffer nearly as much “kill off” as those outside. In addition, Goldenfields practices enthusiastic experimentation in pickling, warehousing, fermentation (into medicines, cordials, and wines) and drying of edible fruits and vegetables.
All of which has made for maximum yields, and the temple-farm’s famous role as the “granary of the North.” Built where it is to be within irrigation reach of the great river Dessarin, and easy market reach of Waterdeep (which is both an important port and a huge food market that can’t possibly feed itself due to building on darn near all the tillable soil within its walls), as well as “on the road to” Silverymoon and the heart of the Sword Coast North, Goldenfields has expanded often; its generous gifts of food and seeds to those in need have given it a “kind, nice” reputation. That, coupled with its holy nature, make it more of an “attraction” in the minds of all than a target.

So saith Ed. Creator of Goldenfields and Waterdeep and the Realms all around them. Afet, I know Ed has read “Guns, Germs, and Steel” as well as “Rats, Lice, and History” and for that matter many books, from long-ago L. Sprague deCamp titles to far more recent releases, on what inventions and innovations occurred when, and what effects they had. (I’m away from my own books right now, and am trying to recall the title of one Ed mentioned to me a year-and-some ago; something about “Windmills, Waterwheels, and - -” something or other . . . Anyway, his shelves bristle with such tomes [Salt, A World History, a similar book about rice, all sorts of books on medieval engineers and how they must or could have built Stonehenge, Roman aqueducts, roads, et al.]
love to all,
THO

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Originally posted by THO in thread "Questions for Ed Greenwood (2008)" on May 7, 2008, as followup to previous quote

A handful of communities keep warrens and fish ponds to “farm” meat and fish for the table (and most steadings across the Realms are mixed-crop farms where game is kept penned for food, from lizards in some of the hot lands to the familiar chickens in temperate Dalelands). Many coastal communities construct weirs as “live pens” for shellfish and other fish collected in tidal shore nets and traps . . . and so on.
Yes, clergy of Umberlee in the case of said coastal communities, and many other deities in places where temples of that god exist in a community, have developed small spells that keep eggs (and plants) warm but not too warm (and wet but not too wet) regardless of outside weather. So other faiths do work to increase crop yields, tend livestock, renew and shape natural growth, etc. to help feed local mouths. However, this is small-scale, often “unofficial” as opposed to being part of the doctrine of the faith, and “sideline” (whereas for Chauntea, it’s the main thrust of worship and religious service).
Wizards get involved in such work rarely. In Cormyr, War Wizards were called in to work hard alongside every other spellcaster in the realm to help repair things (prevent famine, and banish the blight) in the wake of the Devil Dragon war, but in general it would not be part of their work to do so. Across the Realms, a wizard MIGHT develop a pest-banishing or crop fertilizing magic if commissioned to do so, but it isn’t the sort of magic that most arcane spell users and creators would think of trying to create, or be comfortable developing. They would have to “work up to it” by crafting, handling, and mastering spells that brought them closer, step by step, to this sort of nurturing (as opposed to what they are more used to: spells of short or instantaneous duration that cause damage or an effect that is often violent and usually a single-step transformation as opposed to initiating or boosting natural growth or development.

So saith Ed. Who has been creating official spells for the game since 1979 or so, and has built up quite a roster of them (and if one uses the "component" spells he put into Volo's Guide To all Things Magical, it's possible to roleplay a one-player-one-DM campaign, or a more conventional campaign using several PC wizards, focused on continuously devising and using new spells).
love to all,
THO

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From Elminster's Ecologies - The Settled Lands, p7

It seems like you can't walk ten yards in the settled lands without stepping in a wheat field or pumpkin patch. I'd guess that 70 percent of Cormyreans make their living from farming. In parts of the Dalelands, it may be closer to 90 percent. Fruit and vegetable farms usually require smaller amounts of land to generate acceptable profits; in Cormyr, an acre of raspberries earns as much as twenty acres of wheat; but they also require a lot of labor. While a corn farmer relaxes in the winter, an apple grower is busy pruning dead branches. A wheat farmer uses scythes and other tools to help harvest his crops; a blueberry farmer picks his fruit by hand.
Farm sizes vary according to the quality of the land and their proximity to villages. In the isolated regions of northeastern Sembia, where the sandy soil supports only the hardiest grains, farms rarely exceed a few acres, producing enough food for a small family and a couple of horses. In Cormyr, where the soil is more fertile, farms may comprise 20-80 acres. In some instances, a village may claim ownership of all farmable land within a mile circumference; village elders assign plots of 2-10 acres to selected families. The families keep a percentage of the crops, usually about half, and turn over the rest to the elders, who trade it with neighboring villages for tools, weapons, and other goods. Some of the communal farms in Featherdale cover 100 acres, while the government supported estates of Suzail average two or three times that size.
Farms near cities usually fare the best. Cities can muster the economic resources to build dams and finance irrigation projects. It's easier to sell crops and livestock in a city, and easier to buy equipment and supplies. Progressive communities, including Suzail and Arabel, will loan farmers money to buy land or see them through lean years. The inns, taverns, and shops provide outlets for information; you're more likely to hear about innovative irrigation techniques and new markets for cattle while making business contacts than by enjoying the solitude of your fields.
If a farmer without access to a city wants to get rich,
he'd better find a diamond mine in his corn field.

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Originally posted by The Hooded One, in thread "Waterdeep's holdings?" on the 3rd of June, 2009

Well, "massively inefficient" isn't necessarily the way someone in the Realms would view matters, but as it happens, Goldenfields can send much of its produce by barge to within shouting distance of Waterdeep.
Waterdeep is a port that both imports and exports food, and as an exporter has always been a major destination for foodstuffs, lumber, et al drawn from all over the Sword Coast North. One of those foodstuffs are meat on the hoof: large herds of rothe, cattle, swine, horses, and the like. Many of those beasts are driven VERY SLOWLY towards the fields outside Waterdeep where they will be bought, grazing as they go. They are often laden with sacks of, or pull carts full of, other foodstuffs such as wheels of cheese, sausages, hardy root vegetables, and the like, as they make the journey.
This is all drawn from Ed's notes. As are such details as:
Waterdhavian nobles typically import their own food from their own country estates, bringing enough extra to feed their servants (and, usually, the servants doing the work contrive to bring enough extra to "sell a little on the side" in the city). Waterdhavian citizens with windowboxes or roof gardens often grow their own herbs and leaf vegetables, and may protect them with "birdtangle" nets that enmesh pigeons and other birds for the stewpot. Waterdhavian street youths customarily sling or hurl stones to bring down rats, birds, and other creatures for sale as food, and so on.
When Ed created the Realms, he specifically thought through such matters as where cities would get their food from. Tolgar Anuvien, one of the earliest adventurers in D&D play in the Realms, founded Goldenfields, but it was because of a vision sent by Chauntea, and Ed made it clear that she'd sent many such visions to many of her clerics (allowing many cities to grow).
To answer your question about grain specifically, though, grain was shipped from three main areas to the docks of Waterdeep: southern Calimshan, the Tashalar, and distant Var the Golden.

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Originally posted by Steven Schend, in thread "Questions for Steven Schend", 7th Aug, 2008
This involves a LOT of factors as you noted above (and I'm hardly an expert or even a student of farming). Even so, here's a benchmark or three off the top of my head:

Think much much smaller in terms of land parcels as the standard; I'd say price by the acre, as a family of four might be able to grow enough food on an acre to support itself (if it had a cow or a few sheep as well).

If I were GMing an FR game, I'd look at what the DMG gives as a base rate for real estate/land and go with that; if it doesn't mention farmland, make one acre equal in cost to what a farmer allegedly earns in five years (or might scrape together and buy with savings over 20).

If you're in a civilized realm (like Cormyr), it'll be more expensive (and also less likely to have land NOT owned by a noble or the Crown). The closer you are to a major city, the more expensive, etc.

In terms of smallholds, yeah, 100 acres might be a good start. As for noble landholdings, I'd say start at no less than 500 acres for a noble family on hard times; for a powerful noble, no less than 10,000 acres should do.

Prices should adjust upward with each factor:
Closeness to a trade road (more if it's patrolled/protected)
Closeness to other trade avenues (creeks to rivers, lakes, etc.) (And access to multiple avenues of trade increases prices further)
Closeness to a settlement (increase with settlement size)
Arability of land (and what sorts of crops grow therein)
Grazability of land (and what sorts of livestock will eat scrub)
Protection of land from weather extremes
Amount of predators in area (and what types)

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Originally posted by Steven Schend, in thread "Questions for Steven Schend", 8th Aug, 2008

Wow, Icelander--thanks for all that detail. It goes to show that you're MUCH more knowledgeable about the topic than I am, and all I'm bringing to the table is my guesswork and old thoughts from discussions with Ed on world building.

That said, here's more opinion and thought on the prices et al:

The increments on range/distance from settlements or to trade avenues should be measured both in terms of miles and in terms of how far someone can walk, ride a horse, or take a cart in one day (i.e. the 30 mile standard, IIRC, if there's a cleared, paved road, less otherwise). Farther away than that, and yes it gets historically wonky, but we do have farms farther from settlements and it'd be cheaper. I'd say use your 250gp/acre for farms 20 miles out and making it incrementally 5% cheaper (farther away) or more expensive (closer and under better protection) with each 5 mile increment. Yes, that makes farmland right next to a major city 20% more expensive (300 gp/acre, but don't forget all those other factors). Problems (predators) reduce costs, while benefits (rivers, paved roads, etc.) increase costs, as expected.

That 250/acre also applies mainly to arable, good farmland. If it's tough to grow things (ala Scotland or the North without magical support), the price drops. If it's land only good for hunting, the price on the land drops (unless it's home to something really worth hunting like a lot of deer, not just trophy monsters or such). Land for grazing cattle depends on the demands for cattle and its products in that area, etc.

So many factors to juggle and so many variables--you might even make it easier on yourself by making it an even 200 gp/acre just to keep the math a bit cleaner.

So there's your benchmark--200 gp/acre of good farmland (with farming, grazing, homesteading, and wildcrop (wild berries, roots, etc.)). If you want to break it down even more, think of it as 50gp/acre/use of land. If it's only got one use (an acre of scrubby gravel is useless save in defense of a city, not allowing an invader support), it's 50gp/acre. If it's healthy soil with good location, it's going to be costly.

As for your player's knight, he could always roleplay his way to cheaper land, using diplomacy with his friend nobles to get better deals. Or simply have them cut him a sweetheart deal for the land and then hold it over his head for the rest of his days.

Think of it this way--much of the lands around Waterdeep are owned either by the Lords or by the many noble families of the city, though they leave much of it open as grazing land and "public land" for everyone's use. For the nobles, that gets them a break on some taxes, I would think, but also note that they have their established "estates" and "ranches" all over the areas within a few days' ride of the City, and not all of it is farmland. Think wild hunting lands (ala the land gifted to heroes who play Stardock), think roving hills of berries and grapevines or twisted scrub in which to hide.

The equation is this--not all land is created equal for all purposes, but all land is worth something to someone (and what's it's worth to you is what I'll charge to part with it).

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Originally posted by Khaelieth

Great breakdown - It sounds feasible for another reason: pre-industrial society tended to have only about 10% of the population living in cities.

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Originally posted by The Hooded One

If you read the published lore, you'll find much of the population that floods into Waterdeep during the summer months winters much further south, either because they have the wealth to go somewhere warmer (the nobles) or because they are traders from more southerly lands (the Tashalar in particular) who spend the winter making the wares they sell each summer . . . or just because winter life is easier the farther south one goes (food more plentiful, no need to chop as much firewood to keep from freezing, fewer desperate hungry monsters hunting the snows).
That same snowbound condition in winter (howling storms, ice and deep snow everywhere, roads impassable, most mounts and methods of carrying large cargoes (wagons) inoperable) keeps Waterdeep or anyone from easily calling on anyone in the distant countryside, or convincing them to go anywhere or do anything (unless Waterdeep promises and swiftly provides food and warmth in return for such service).
You seem to think of Waterdeep as akin to real-world New York, with New Jersey to call on. There IS no "large population at their doorstep" for Waterdeep: there's a small, scattered, hunkering-down-in-winter one. And if monsters, raiding brigands, or the proverbial orc horde is on the loose, such populations will flock to wherever they can get shelter. That will be Waterdeep for a few families of crofters, but the large numbers you're envisioning (Secomber, Silverymoon) will be defending their own, not abandoning all they own and hold dear to go help fight for Waterdeep.
You've got to stop seeing the Realms as having modern real-world easy transportation and communications. Throughout this thread, you've been taking the sort of tactical overview of the Waterdeep region that, say, a real-world military general might. However, except for a few of the Lords of Waterdeep and a handful of Palace courtiers, that's not the way Waterdhavians or the neighbours see things. Guildmasters, most Lords, and everyone else tend to have much narrower, focused-on-themselves-or-their-field-of-trade/profession viewpoints...so convincing them to do what you want them to do is going to be difficult. Remember, Waterdeep isn't a military tyranny, but does have a history of being so - - which means folk will be watching for any attempt on Waterdeep's part to militarily coerce them into anything.
Myself, I'd think Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, Silverymoon, Secomber, Everlund, and the dwarf holds in particular would all be very alarmed if Waterdeep ever started recruiting large numbers of people "from the countryside" for any sort of military purpose, unless all olf these places had already agreed on such a tactic in the face of, say, an orc horde. You say "you would think" people outside Waterdeep "are pretty loyal" to Waterdeep. Not so, when it comes to risking their lives in military service. They certainly see Waterdeep's usefulness as a market and protection for them, but they also have daily resentments at all the little things attendant on Waterdeep wielding its powers (patrols giving them orders, etc.). Self-interest remains the most powerful motivator, in the Realms as in the real world. I think your recruiters, if they expected crofters in the countryside to come flocking to Waterdeep's army ranks, would get an unpleasant surprise. You blithely speak of getting youngsters as recruits that the army could instil loyalty in, but ignore the fact that restless youth want to see the world, not "join the devil they know." And just who is going to do that instilling of loyalty? Waterdeep doesn't have a "boot camp" set up or standing infrastructure; its militia training is very different, and concentrates on able-bodied adults; it's supposed to be the population defending itself, not youngsters fighting while everyone else hides or flees.
It's wrong to think that everyone from the countryside rushes into Waterdeep every summer, and goes back to freeze in the wilderness every winter. Yet the published lore, from the first (don't forget to read KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD), makes it clear that the huge summer increase in population is almost entirely traders from afar, coming to trade and departing again in winter. There IS no huge country population around the city that could account for that huge summer increase.
Does this make more sense? I'm not adding or inventing anything here, I'm just restating what's in the published Realms canon.

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Originally posted by The Hooded One
You post: "When you talk about people from Waterdeep spending the winter down south, you're talking about a fraction of the population."
No, I'm not. As I've already clearly stated, I'm talking about the huge majority of the city's population, the merchants and craftworkers from elsewhere, who come to Waterdeep every summer to make their coins, and who "go back home" in the countryside of the Tashalar, and Amn, and Tethyr, and Tharsult, and many other places. Who have NO loyalty to Waterdeep as "a home to fight for" and who would relocate their summer trading without hesitation if, say, word reached them that there was a plague in Waterdeep. Or any sort of war.

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Originally quoted by The Hooded One, quoting Ed Greenwood

With all of that said: no, Waterdeep lacks foulburghs, shanty-towns, or suburban expansion, BY LAW. In addition to the Code Legal set forth in the CITY OF SPLENDORS boxed set, Waterdeep has an ever-increasing body of ‘case law’ in the form of Lords’ decrees, built up with the passing years. One of them forbids any permanent structures outside the city walls, for a distance of half a days’ patrol, except by license of the Lords (who only grant such permission for civic buildings). So the city occupies the entire plateau (note the cliffs along much of its eastern side), and the meadows around are kept clear for caravans to assemble, camp upon arrival (temporarily living there, with no permanent structures allowed), livestock markets, wagon-trains to muster for “straight runs in” to the docks or to dockside warehouses, and so on.
You’ll see a very brief scene in the Waterdeep novel that Elaine and I wrote (if it survives the editing) wherein two nobles go hawking in the meadows early in the morning; later in the day or at evening, this activity would be impossible due to all the Waterdhavians ‘dining out’ (eating picnic meals, often with the families of several friends meeting so the children can run and play while the grown-ups sit, drink and eat, and talk), lovers trysting, folk meeting to talk business (perhaps shady or illicit dealings) in relative privacy, and so on. So Waterdeep uses the open land around it, on a daily basis.
(By the way, the novel also makes clear why the City of the Dead isn’t where the poor sleep - - unless they sleep by day. The gates of the cemetery are always closed from dusk until dawn, when ghosts roam in sufficient profusion to drive most folk mad.)
Caravan camping (and thus, daily prosperity due to caravan trade) plus controlling in some small way who can be a permanent resident of the city, plus providing some security from orc hordes by affording any attacking force as little cover and ready plunder as possible, are the reasons for keeping the meadows clear. Often traffic jams are so severe in the city streets (as I mentioned in a much earlier post here at Candlekeep), that going “out a gate and around” (to another gate, and back in again) is by far the faster way to travel; this plus the need to swiftly being in food from Goldenfields and keep the city from strangling on its own trade . . . all contribute to the decision to prevent Waterdeep sprawling over the surrounding landscape.
Security and caravan-camping will be the considerations that keep cities everywhere else from partially (usually) or wholly (rarely) preventing building outside the walls. Most cities restrict building to some extent, to keep roads clear and water-sources unfouled or accessible, or prevent woods from being entirely hewn down.

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Originally posted by Wizards of the Coast

The City of Splendors is certainly the greatest of the Sword Coast cities and perhaps the greatest cities on the face of the world. It’s home to as many as two million people, though an accurate census is all but impossible since so many come and go, visiting the open city to trade and otherwise seek fame and fortune.

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Originally posted by KanzenAU


Long story short, 3 main options going forward (with some in between):
1. Go with the purist approach and say there is 0 rural population, and the 3e figures are incorrect.
2. Go with the compromise approach and say there is a rural population of 684,535, and the website figures are an inaccurate census roundup.
3. Go with the larger census figures with a rural population of 1,215,179, keeping all the published figures.

I fear that options 2 and 3 stray too far from Ed and THO's vision, though I'm also not entirely sure. I also don't want to ignore the 3e figures. At the moment I'm leaning towards option 2, while putting the rural population far enough from the city (half-day's ride) to hopefully fit in with the THO/Ed vision while respecting the 3e figures.

I'd love to hear from people their own opinions on what to do here. I plan to develop this area properly into a mini-setting for my own players (and hopefully even for the DM's Guild), but I don't want to start on false premises.

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Originally posted by KanzenAU
Edit: So much of this revolves around those pesky 3e campaign guide population figures, which I suspect were not part of Ed's original vision... every time this comes up, THO and Ed downplay the importance of the Waterdhavian farm.

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As for how Waterdeep feeds itself, the Dessarin and the Delimbiyr valleys are verdant and aren't nearly as over-farmed as most real-world arable land. Many herds are fed up and down the Sword Coast and driven to market throughout the year (except for the winter months, which careful readers will note is when many of the wealthiest 'big eaters'--the party-throwing nobles--relocate to warmer climes). Most Waterdhavians grow their own windowbox and rooftop herbs, cellar mushrooms, and the like, and many middle-class and upper-class go out beyond the walls to buy from vendors or even at farmers' markets and farms, beyond. This is the reason I was so frustrated at the page length of FR1; all of this sort of detail had to go...

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Originally posted by Faraer
He also touched on Sword Coast North demographics in a multi-part post in 2001.

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Originally posted by KanzenAU
Any chance you can direct me to this discussion? I feel like I'm slowly getting a better grasp of the situation, and I'd like to get it right.

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PLACES: Silver Marches (Ed's perspective)
PLACES: SILVER MARCHES (2 of 8)
PLACES: Part 3 of 8 Silver Marches from Ed
PEACES: Part 4 of 8 Silver Marches (from Ed)
PLACES: Part 5 of 8 Silver Marches (from Ed)
PLACES: Part 6 of 8 Silver Marches (from Ed)
PLACES: Part 7 of 8 Silver Marches (from Ed)
PLACES: 8 of 8 of Silver Marches (from Ed)

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