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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
4570 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 16:32:37
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I'll convey your post to Ed directly. I know he's finished and turned in the final draft of BURY ELMINSTER DEEP, the sequel (to be released next August), and has started on the third book of the six.
He's REALLY enjoying writing these - - and thus far, like you, I've REALLY enjoyed reading them. 
love,
THO |
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Shadowaxe
Seeker
United Kingdom
16 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 17:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I'll convey your post to Ed directly. I know he's finished and turned in the final draft of BURY ELMINSTER DEEP, the sequel (to be released next August), and has started on the third book of the six.
He's REALLY enjoying writing these - - and thus far, like you, I've REALLY enjoyed reading them.
love,
THO
Tho, that is great to hear and means the [realm] to me!
You can tell that Ed is enjoying writing these; the fun shines through like a twinkling golden lion, flipped on high by Mirt - complete with cheeky grin and drinking breeches firmly on - and sparkling in the Faerunian sun's rays.
All I can say is bring on August, Bury Elminster Deep will be mine. O yes, it will be mine *Wayne's World smile on a Manshoon face* ...and I can't wait.
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Mead, mead, from the honey bee,
How I long to drink thee. |
Edited by - Shadowaxe on 14 Oct 2010 18:14:57 |
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Thente Thunderspells
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 01:22:46
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I just finished this book last night (I was on vacation when it arrived) and must say that I'm having VERY mixed reactions to the book.
It hurts to read about all the dead and gone characters that I loved so much in the FR before they were destroyed for marketing purposes. It hurts to see how powerless and down trodden El, Storm, & the Simbul are too. And I'm elated with the ending because it makes me hope that possibly a lot of our refusals to buy 4E Shattered Realms stuff has made the WotC bean counters see the light, and perhaps they are trying to lure us back in by regenerating the Realms (sort of).
At the same time, I thought those scenes with a certain Lord were a bit contrived, and the main villain of this book is pretty much a caricature of an "evil villain". Did anyone else see that? I mean he always has been, but here it's "oooh I'm so powerful, everyone else is a play thing... wait for it, wait for it... BOOM! Hahaha it is 'I'" and then blast, he's gone for the rest of this book.
Don't know, I loved it and disliked parts of it for sure. I would love if some of the theories posted earlier are correct... |
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
- Shakespeare |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
233 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 03:53:20
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Thente, I agree with you about the caricature of an evil villain, and talked about that with Ed at the last Phantasm - - and he said the character in question acts like that because he's flat-out mad, and that there's a reason for that madness the character is unaware of, and that readers won't see until the third book. (And no, he told me, it's not "too many clones active, making all of them mad.")
Which made me revise my opinion of those scenes a lot. Ed is playing a deeper game here than I, and a lot of others, gave him credit for!
Malcolm |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
2549 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 21:37:22
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Ed is always playing a 'Deep Game'... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9286 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 13:04:16
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quote:
Originally posted by geok1ng
I am less than impressed by this book. It does not have any of the 4th edition flavor of the pther novels. Were it not by the constatnt reminder of how powerful the characters were in the past, one could not find any difference from pre spellplague books.
And the formula of keeping old chars in play is repetitive: a princess of cormyr, a royal mage and a chosen all follow manshoons recipe for surviving the spellplague.
I HIGHLY agree.
This book is a complete disappointment.
quote:
Originally posted by geok1ng
But Arclath Delcastle lost most of my respect on the dialogue on chapter 36, pages 338 to 339. First i was mildly amused to discover that the author wasnt brave enough to created a truly queer anti-hero. A gay noble swordsman without any morals would be a welcome addition to the line of sexual oriented chars of the novel. Oh, how i would love to see a Forgotten Realms Marquis de Sade, but Delcastle is already on the way to romantic love with Amarune. How i miss Pharaun Mizzrym, spoiled and sarcastic.
Arclath is bisexual. I don't think his mother would simply jest that he liked young men if she hadn't seen him bed one or two. |
“We must have more than one way of looking at the world . . . That is the weakness of the colleges. Each order only sees through one eye. Through the concept of the world created by the way of their own wind of magic. The Bright Order sees everything as creation and destruction, always in violence. The Amethyst wizards as decay and dissolution. We see it in terms of purity and corruption, everything in those terms. It is how a wizard becomes blind to the reality of the world, for he rejects whatever does not fit into his view of it. I see through the eyes both of a Light wizard and of a man curious about the world. That is how I stave off stagnation.”
—Egrimm van Horstmann, Grand Magister of the Order of Light (Van Horstmann by Ben Counter)
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
233 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 14:56:37
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A complete disappointment for you, but not for me.
You've posted repeatedly about your boredom while reading it, and your hatred of the "cockroach" Manshoon.
Fair enough.
However, I respectfully disagree. Completely.
I loved this book. Parts of it weren't pleasant for the characters, but given the situations, that's hardly surprising.
And geok1ng's comment about following Manshoon's recipe is simply wrong. The three characters he cites all survived the Spellplague in very different ways. He obviously didn't read the book very closely.
As for his comment not having "the 4th edition flavor" - - I think Ed, as the creator of the world, "gets" the Realms better than any of us.
I hope we can avoid, in this thread and others, the Internet trap of posters equating their opinions with absolute fact or definitive judgment. "I didn't like this book" is NOT the same as "This book stinks." |
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WildRyc
Acolyte
Canada
3 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 20:44:12
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I'll admit: I thoroughly enjoyed this book. I could barely stop reading it after I purchased it on Saturday.
However, I did feel a bit upset with how Manshoon seemed so omnipresent. No one could escape his grasp, no one could put up a fight. Beholders, wights, wizards and whatnot - all fell before the guy who could control the mind of anyone he could think of. All he did was sit in a command centre with TV's turned onto all the stations and played around every trick everyone else tried. Granted, controlling beholders to do that is WAY cooler than how I described it.
The jump-frames during the end may have have been used to build the tension, but they definitely jarred me from the immersion. I had to reread each section so that I could be sure I knew what happened. I'm not sure if this came down to bad editing, but I feel as though you might need a bit more substance to each little part. Shows can do this because the image conveys a lot more information - I'm unsure as to whether it's the best option in writing.
For me, the best parts were when Storm or El managed to bring the weight of their years and accolades to bear upon other characters - like when she convinces Starbridge to give her the ring. Being impressed with titles is still something that gets me: I'm trying to stop gibbering like an idiot whenever I meet someone famous, or that I look up to. Being dressed down by the person who created the organization that you claim to lead - that's something else.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9286 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 02:05:54
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quote:
Originally posted by WildRyc
However, I did feel a bit upset with how Manshoon seemed so omnipresent. No one could escape his grasp, no one could put up a fight. Beholders, wights, wizards and whatnot - all fell before the guy who could control the mind of anyone he could think of. All he did was sit in a command centre with TV's turned onto all the stations and played around every trick everyone else tried.
It's just the concept of 'puppet master' with unsavory exaggeration. |
“We must have more than one way of looking at the world . . . That is the weakness of the colleges. Each order only sees through one eye. Through the concept of the world created by the way of their own wind of magic. The Bright Order sees everything as creation and destruction, always in violence. The Amethyst wizards as decay and dissolution. We see it in terms of purity and corruption, everything in those terms. It is how a wizard becomes blind to the reality of the world, for he rejects whatever does not fit into his view of it. I see through the eyes both of a Light wizard and of a man curious about the world. That is how I stave off stagnation.”
—Egrimm van Horstmann, Grand Magister of the Order of Light (Van Horstmann by Ben Counter)
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
4570 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 18:45:41
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Or you could look a little deeper and see it as Manshoon FINALLY preparing enough, and being patient enough, that he has "enough up his sleeve" to deal with anything unforeseen that arises.
And if that sounds like what Manshoon has pretended to be rather than what we've seen Manshoon really is, and so sounds odd or "wrong" for the character . . . ah, NOW you're on to something. Stay tuned to later books to see just what it is. (According to Ed.)
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 01 Dec 2010 18:46:04 |
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WildRyc
Acolyte
Canada
3 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 02:56:18
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| Well, that would explain why Manshoon keeps on saying his name over and over again... |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 02:26:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Or you could look a little deeper and see it as Manshoon FINALLY preparing enough, and being patient enough, that he has "enough up his sleeve" to deal with anything unforeseen that arises.
And if that sounds like what Manshoon has pretended to be rather than what we've seen Manshoon really is, and so sounds odd or "wrong" for the character . . . ah, NOW you're on to something. Stay tuned to later books to see just what it is. (According to Ed.)
love,
THO
Preparing and blabbering about it.
Tam did prepare his ascension to Thay's sole sovereign but he didn't ridiculously blabber about it even though he's as mad as the cockroach. |
“We must have more than one way of looking at the world . . . That is the weakness of the colleges. Each order only sees through one eye. Through the concept of the world created by the way of their own wind of magic. The Bright Order sees everything as creation and destruction, always in violence. The Amethyst wizards as decay and dissolution. We see it in terms of purity and corruption, everything in those terms. It is how a wizard becomes blind to the reality of the world, for he rejects whatever does not fit into his view of it. I see through the eyes both of a Light wizard and of a man curious about the world. That is how I stave off stagnation.”
—Egrimm van Horstmann, Grand Magister of the Order of Light (Van Horstmann by Ben Counter)
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
4570 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 03:22:16
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Quite true. And hardly surprising, being as they're different characters. Both created by Ed, but very different from each other.
One of Ed's ongoing themes, over his last forty-some years of Realms fiction, has been how power, and longevity, affects archmages differently. Elminster and Khelben, the Seven, the Srinshee, Manshoon, Szass Tam, Larloch, and for that matter Elaith . . . all creations of his, all very different.
And no, Szass Tam ISN'T as mad as Manshoon. I have that directly from Ed. Who says you might have been right about that, about sixty clones and more than a century back.
love,
THO |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 03:35:20
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quote:
Originally posted by geok1ng
I am less than impressed by this book. It does not have any of the 4th edition flavor of the pther novels. Were it not by the constatnt reminder of how powerful the characters were in the past, one could not find any difference from pre spellplague books.
That's probably why I enjoyed it so thoroughly. Looking forward to "Bury Elminster Deep" with great interest!
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Or you could look a little deeper and see it as Manshoon FINALLY preparing enough, and being patient enough, that he has "enough up his sleeve" to deal with anything unforeseen that arises.
And if that sounds like what Manshoon has pretended to be rather than what we've seen Manshoon really is, and so sounds odd or "wrong" for the character . . . ah, NOW you're on to something. Stay tuned to later books to see just what it is. (According to Ed.)
love,
THO
Heh... I was thinking something similar, but yet different... more along the lines of, this is how I expected Manshoon to be (apart from the maniacal gloating) from the first publication of the Realms... but I understand that TSR's ethics guidelines prevented that. I have my theories as to what's "wrong" with Manshoon, and I think much of it goes back to the "Manshoon Clone Wars" and the status/condition of the winner of said conflict.
THO... you said earlier that this is a SIX-book series!?  Will this storyline then take us through to the next RSE and Fifth Edition, or is that still under wraps? (he says, only half jokingly)
And yes, this is my first post in quite some time; I've been busy with assembling and testing a homebrew ruleset, playing in three campaigns (one in the Realms, one in Golarion, and the last in a universe based on, but not identical with, that of StarCraft II), and real life... electronics retail is a busy industry at this time of the year. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9286 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2011 : 07:13:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Or you could look a little deeper and see it as Manshoon FINALLY preparing enough, and being patient enough, that he has "enough up his sleeve" to deal with anything unforeseen that arises.
And if that sounds like what Manshoon has pretended to be rather than what we've seen Manshoon really is, and so sounds odd or "wrong" for the character . . . ah, NOW you're on to something. Stay tuned to later books to see just what it is. (According to Ed.)
love,
THO
I might do that---not because I want to see more of the roach; definitely not that; but because I still like Alassra and Elminster. I just HOPE I wouldn't be as disappointed as I was with this book. |
“We must have more than one way of looking at the world . . . That is the weakness of the colleges. Each order only sees through one eye. Through the concept of the world created by the way of their own wind of magic. The Bright Order sees everything as creation and destruction, always in violence. The Amethyst wizards as decay and dissolution. We see it in terms of purity and corruption, everything in those terms. It is how a wizard becomes blind to the reality of the world, for he rejects whatever does not fit into his view of it. I see through the eyes both of a Light wizard and of a man curious about the world. That is how I stave off stagnation.”
—Egrimm van Horstmann, Grand Magister of the Order of Light (Van Horstmann by Ben Counter)
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Arcanus
Learned Scribe
275 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 16:41:51
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| I sometimes find it very hard to read Ed's books. Too much 'hey nonny nonny' and pointless description but not enough story. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9286 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 09:22:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I sometimes find it very hard to read Ed's books. Too much 'hey nonny nonny' and pointless description but not enough story.
His older novels are way better, particularly the first 4 in the Elminster saga. |
“We must have more than one way of looking at the world . . . That is the weakness of the colleges. Each order only sees through one eye. Through the concept of the world created by the way of their own wind of magic. The Bright Order sees everything as creation and destruction, always in violence. The Amethyst wizards as decay and dissolution. We see it in terms of purity and corruption, everything in those terms. It is how a wizard becomes blind to the reality of the world, for he rejects whatever does not fit into his view of it. I see through the eyes both of a Light wizard and of a man curious about the world. That is how I stave off stagnation.”
—Egrimm van Horstmann, Grand Magister of the Order of Light (Van Horstmann by Ben Counter)
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Arcanus
Learned Scribe
275 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 18:21:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I sometimes find it very hard to read Ed's books. Too much 'hey nonny nonny' and pointless description but not enough story.
His older novels are way better, particularly the first 4 in the Elminster saga.
I agree wholeheartedly. I only half read the first book in the knights of myth drannor, I gave up waiting for something to happen. On the other hand I've read the spellfire books loads of times. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9286 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 01:40:03
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I'm not giving up on his works. Not yet, at least. I only hope his future books will prove as entertaining as his older ones. There's still the "revival" of Alassra that I'm looking forward to. And perhaps his future novels will finally reveal that someone or something that deters Tam from conquering Aglarond despite the Simbul's prolonged absence.
-----
I tried to reread this book to gain some new perspective. But I just can't go on after chapter 2. |
“We must have more than one way of looking at the world . . . That is the weakness of the colleges. Each order only sees through one eye. Through the concept of the world created by the way of their own wind of magic. The Bright Order sees everything as creation and destruction, always in violence. The Amethyst wizards as decay and dissolution. We see it in terms of purity and corruption, everything in those terms. It is how a wizard becomes blind to the reality of the world, for he rejects whatever does not fit into his view of it. I see through the eyes both of a Light wizard and of a man curious about the world. That is how I stave off stagnation.”
—Egrimm van Horstmann, Grand Magister of the Order of Light (Van Horstmann by Ben Counter)
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Edited by - Dennis on 24 Apr 2011 01:27:43 |
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Longtime Lurker
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2011 : 18:52:23
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Just finished EL MUST DIE for the fourth time. It stands up better and better to repeated rereadings, and I keep noticing subtle hints and nuances I didn't pick up on in early reads. I'm sure those who want to read a hack-and-slash battle session brought from the gaming table to the pages of a novel have given up on Ed's writing a long time ago, though his battle descriptions are great (if short) when they finally arrive, but the depth of feeling like actually being in the Realms, in the middle of the everyday lives of thousands, is wonderful, the banter enjoyable, and the characters intriguing.
I can't wait for more. I've ordered the anthologies WHEN THE HERO COMES HOME and THE NEW HERO because Ed has stories in them (not to mention other Realms writers in the first one, and Robin Laws editing and lots of game writers in the second one), and BEAUTY HAS HER WAY just arrived yesterday; I ordered it for the Ed story in it, and wasn't disappointed. Short, very un-Realms-like, and made me wince. Just as it was supposed to. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
241 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2011 : 11:37:15
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| I wasn't too happy with the Knights novels, but "Elminster Must Die" was a great read - very well done! Looking forward to the sequel... |
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
250 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 13:41:12
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I finally got to writing a review for Elminster Must Die.
Initially at Goodreads, but that one is a bit short and may come over as a bit too negative.
I rewrote it, and while it is still not all that positive (after all, I DO have issues), I think I managed to also add a bit on what I did like.
Anyway, it is on the wizards bookclub:
http://community.wizards.com/bookclub/go/thread/view/110769/28857645/Elminster_Must_Die
Gomez
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Dennis
Great Reader
9286 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 14:43:25
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Agreed on all acounts, gomez. Your review brings back some unsavory memories I'd rather forget. |
“We must have more than one way of looking at the world . . . That is the weakness of the colleges. Each order only sees through one eye. Through the concept of the world created by the way of their own wind of magic. The Bright Order sees everything as creation and destruction, always in violence. The Amethyst wizards as decay and dissolution. We see it in terms of purity and corruption, everything in those terms. It is how a wizard becomes blind to the reality of the world, for he rejects whatever does not fit into his view of it. I see through the eyes both of a Light wizard and of a man curious about the world. That is how I stave off stagnation.”
—Egrimm van Horstmann, Grand Magister of the Order of Light (Van Horstmann by Ben Counter)
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
233 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 18:49:12
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Well, I liked ELMINSTER MUST DIE! a lot. It works better if you just read it as a novel, instead of reacting to how Ed depicts this or that character, place, or group in the Realms vs. the way you think of them.
He is, after all, THE expert on the Realms.
For Ed fans, FORESHADOWS: THE GHOSTS OF ZERO has just been released, and THE NEW HERO is coming out very soon. Next up - not counting the FR comic Ed is writing, his monthly DDI column, or paperback reprints of hardback Realms novels - is, I think, the WHAT SCARES THE BOOGEYMAN? horror anthology, that has an Ed story in it. Though I know he's been contributing to non-WotC games and some online sf mags, so one of them might debut first. I can hardly keep up with the guy. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
726 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 21:39:53
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And a triumphant conclusion. What a great book.
A yarn, a romp in places, and great fun. Not mighty literature, but then most fantasy novels aren't and don't try to be. Well worth the bucks, and stands up very well to rereading.
I liked BURY RLMINSTER DEEP, too, and am itching to read ELMINSTER ENRAGED when it (it feels like I should write "finally" here  ) comes out.
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Elminster Must Die -- Chapters 32 - 36 & Epilogue
