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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
669 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2020 :  19:55:33  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Getting back to the main topic at hand - the Tome of Battle - I was wondering if there was a desire by the community at large to have additional Disciplines made that work with the Tome? I ask because I'm currently working on a Discipline that focuses on using Air and Sonic attacks in a similar vein as Airbending.



I am not sure airbending or any kind of bending should be a discipline as much as its own core class, or at least a prestige class for swordsages.
Blood bending should be a dark art like the flavor of the Shadow hand discipline.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4305 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2020 :  22:39:28  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn


I am not sure airbending or any kind of bending should be a discipline as much as its own core class, or at least a prestige class for swordsages.
Blood bending should be a dark art like the flavor of the Shadow hand discipline.



Well what I mean, not bending specifically like we see in Avatar: the Last Airbender but maneuvers, stances, and the like to what we see with the Desert Wind discipline. One could take the powers from that and almost mimic the effects of a Firebender already. Of course you're still limited by class (only Swordsages get access to the Celestial Typhoon) and you're probably not being glued only to that style but it just has similar flavor.

I got the concept after re-watching Avatar Korra and the main antagonist of Season 3 (Zaheer, a new air bender) and this guy and powers are just cool as all hell.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 25 Apr 2020 00:32:38
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
669 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2020 :  14:01:43  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

[quote]

Well what I mean, not bending specifically like we see in Avatar: the Last Airbender but maneuvers, stances, and the like to what we see with the Desert Wind discipline. One could take the powers from that and almost mimic the effects of a Firebender already. Of course you're still limited by class (only Swordsages get access to the Celestial Typhoon) and you're probably not being glued only to that style but it just has similar flavor.

I got the concept after re-watching Avatar Korra and the main antagonist of Season 3 (Zaheer, a new air bender) and this guy and powers are just cool as all hell.



This is better. I have a hard time picturing crusaders airbending.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4305 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2020 :  21:56:18  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As do I, lol. I couldn't see someone in full-plate being "like a leaf" and flowing air around him nimbly-bimbly.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
669 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2020 :  01:09:24  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

As do I, lol. I couldn't see someone in full-plate being "like a leaf" and flowing air around him nimbly-bimbly.



Hmm, that gives me a sick idea of a helmed horror with swordsage maneuvers and a monk's unarmed combat abilities. Trained skill in Acrobatics.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11169 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2020 :  16:06:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

As do I, lol. I couldn't see someone in full-plate being "like a leaf" and flowing air around him nimbly-bimbly.



Hmm, that gives me a sick idea of a helmed horror with swordsage maneuvers and a monk's unarmed combat abilities. Trained skill in Acrobatics.



Not sure about the monk part (just personal preference), but the idea of a helmed horror that's leveled in Book of Nine Swords type styles is interesting.

Furthermore, YOUR idea just spawned an idea for me for Maztica/Katashaka/Anchorome areas. One of the things I'd been playing with at one point was constructs made using the magic of the area. So, for instance, Hishnahide armor constructs similar to a Helmed horror wherein the animated armor is like a thicker hide armor with say a jaguar, wolf, bear, lion, or something like a shark or komodo dragon skull as the head. More intelligent versions could be made that could "command" legions of these Hishnahide with human or other intelligent being skulls. From another perspective, Plumafeather constructs could also be made from feather and bone over hide armor from giant parrots, giant eagles, giant owls, giant ravens, giant vultures, griffons, hippogriffs, pegasi, etc...

These various constructs that I'm talking about could be focused in various fighting styles that I definitely see mirroring monks, swordsages, etc... and the plumafeather ones would fit the "wind" stuff that Diffan was developing.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4305 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2020 :  20:11:24  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

As do I, lol. I couldn't see someone in full-plate being "like a leaf" and flowing air around him nimbly-bimbly.



Hmm, that gives me a sick idea of a helmed horror with swordsage maneuvers and a monk's unarmed combat abilities. Trained skill in Acrobatics.



Not sure about the monk part (just personal preference), but the idea of a helmed horror that's leveled in Book of Nine Swords type styles is interesting.

Furthermore, YOUR idea just spawned an idea for me for Maztica/Katashaka/Anchorome areas. One of the things I'd been playing with at one point was constructs made using the magic of the area. So, for instance, Hishnahide armor constructs similar to a Helmed horror wherein the animated armor is like a thicker hide armor with say a jaguar, wolf, bear, lion, or something like a shark or komodo dragon skull as the head. More intelligent versions could be made that could "command" legions of these Hishnahide with human or other intelligent being skulls. From another perspective, Plumafeather constructs could also be made from feather and bone over hide armor from giant parrots, giant eagles, giant owls, giant ravens, giant vultures, griffons, hippogriffs, pegasi, etc...

These various constructs that I'm talking about could be focused in various fighting styles that I definitely see mirroring monks, swordsages, etc... and the plumafeather ones would fit the "wind" stuff that Diffan was developing.



That's a pretty good idea! Helmed Horrors always is seen as metallic hunks of animated armor. But having a bone-skulled, jaguar hide warrior using Tiger Claw maneuvers or an animated wispy cloth-armored - huge bat skulled - creature using Celestial Typhoon maneuvers would be horrifying and awesome!

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
669 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2020 :  23:46:45  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

As do I, lol. I couldn't see someone in full-plate being "like a leaf" and flowing air around him nimbly-bimbly.



Hmm, that gives me a sick idea of a helmed horror with swordsage maneuvers and a monk's unarmed combat abilities. Trained skill in Acrobatics.



Not sure about the monk part (just personal preference), but the idea of a helmed horror that's leveled in Book of Nine Swords type styles is interesting.

Furthermore, YOUR idea just spawned an idea for me for Maztica/Katashaka/Anchorome areas. One of the things I'd been playing with at one point was constructs made using the magic of the area. So, for instance, Hishnahide armor constructs similar to a Helmed horror wherein the animated armor is like a thicker hide armor with say a jaguar, wolf, bear, lion, or something like a shark or komodo dragon skull as the head. More intelligent versions could be made that could "command" legions of these Hishnahide with human or other intelligent being skulls. From another perspective, Plumafeather constructs could also be made from feather and bone over hide armor from giant parrots, giant eagles, giant owls, giant ravens, giant vultures, griffons, hippogriffs, pegasi, etc...

These various constructs that I'm talking about could be focused in various fighting styles that I definitely see mirroring monks, swordsages, etc... and the plumafeather ones would fit the "wind" stuff that Diffan was developing.



That's a pretty good idea! Helmed Horrors always is seen as metallic hunks of animated armor. But having a bone-skulled, jaguar hide warrior using Tiger Claw maneuvers or an animated wispy cloth-armored - huge bat skulled - creature using Celestial Typhoon maneuvers would be horrifying and awesome!


And throw in a dash of hishna magic as practiced in Maztica.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11169 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2020 :  18:11:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Diffan,

I know its been a while since we had this conversation, but I really enjoyed the general story we were making up, and I felt like just making a picture of a bastard sword for this Jade Phoenix battlemage. To note, its not meant to be Hadryllis, but rather another bastard sword, just because I was thinking it might be interesting if the Jade Phoenix mage has one sword tied to the Jade Phoenix and then has to use Hadryllis as a weapon tied to binding "the Everlasting Wyrm" and Eltab. The idea came to me kind o like the two swords of power having to be combined by He-Man and Skeletor as a way to just make things a little more complex.

Bastard Sword of the Jade Phoenix Battlemage https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4541158 by sleyvas is licensed under the Creative Commons - Attribution license.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Jul 2020 18:12:26
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4305 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2021 :  16:05:38  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Diffan,

I know its been a while since we had this conversation, but I really enjoyed the general story we were making up, and I felt like just making a picture of a bastard sword for this Jade Phoenix battlemage. To note, its not meant to be Hadryllis, but rather another bastard sword, just because I was thinking it might be interesting if the Jade Phoenix mage has one sword tied to the Jade Phoenix and then has to use Hadryllis as a weapon tied to binding "the Everlasting Wyrm" and Eltab. The idea came to me kind o like the two swords of power having to be combined by He-Man and Skeletor as a way to just make things a little more complex.

Bastard Sword of the Jade Phoenix Battlemage https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4541158 by sleyvas is licensed under the Creative Commons - Attribution license.



That's a pretty cool looking sword design. I like the bird emblem etched into the blade. With it being a bastard sword, does that mean a bigger focus on Disciplines that use that weapon: Diamond Mind and Iron Heart?

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11169 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2021 :  17:45:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Diffan,

I know its been a while since we had this conversation, but I really enjoyed the general story we were making up, and I felt like just making a picture of a bastard sword for this Jade Phoenix battlemage. To note, its not meant to be Hadryllis, but rather another bastard sword, just because I was thinking it might be interesting if the Jade Phoenix mage has one sword tied to the Jade Phoenix and then has to use Hadryllis as a weapon tied to binding "the Everlasting Wyrm" and Eltab. The idea came to me kind o like the two swords of power having to be combined by He-Man and Skeletor as a way to just make things a little more complex.

Bastard Sword of the Jade Phoenix Battlemage https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4541158 by sleyvas is licensed under the Creative Commons - Attribution license.



That's a pretty cool looking sword design. I like the bird emblem etched into the blade. With it being a bastard sword, does that mean a bigger focus on Disciplines that use that weapon: Diamond Mind and Iron Heart?



Well, I picked bastard sword just because that's a requirement to enter the Raumathari Battlemage prestige class, so I figured Raumathar had a lot of people using it. However, the diamond mind discipline is definitely "my type of style" since it seems very defense oriented as well as having nice attack options, all while focusing on intellect, and it can be warblade OR swordsage. Iron Heart would seem to fit as well, and the name fits Raumathar, since this was when humanity in that region was discovering the use of iron versus the bronze weapons of Mulan manufacture, but its purely warblade.

The Jade Phoenix class though seems to make you NEED to focus on desert wind and devoted spirit, one of which is crusader and the other is swordsage. That of course could be modified for THIS jade phoenix mage (i.e. perhaps he can choose between desert wind and diamond mind). I will add, I don't think I realized this part until the reread (i.e. I didn't realize it was tying you to certain disciplines).

BTW: I could see this character possibly spending some levels in Raumathari battlemage as well, using Jade Phoenix to level his mage levels first. Not many levels mind you. Raumathari battlemage also needs a little service to make it comparable to most 3.5 stuff that came later (like spellsword and eldritch knight, etc...).... thinking one thing that that class should have is a free feat at first level that's somatic weaponry. It kind of hints around that you can use your sword as a focus and replace material components, etc...

Thinking on a build... Just looking at the rules, think you could mix in some spellsword, abjurant champion, or raumathari battlemage levels into it as well. I like the idea of him having levels in both crusader and swordsage as well (crusader of Kossuth, but swordsage opens the desert wind discipline plus AC bonus with light armor based on wisdom). Of course the key, as always is how to get started in spellcasting AND getting your BAB up at the same time. Maybe doing 3 levels crusader, 2 levels swordsage, 2 level wizard, 2 levels abjurant champion, 10 levels jade phoenix, 1 level maybe spellsword or ajburant champion... lessee at level 20 ... +18 bab, and a decent spread of saves of which reflex is probably your worst (but if you have diamond mind's action before thought...)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4305 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2021 :  00:23:52  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looking at a possible build, it helps to know what level, approximately, we're look at? So, if I were to use him as I intend - an NPC to help find/Bind the Everlasting Wyurm to guard against Eltab, he's gonna need to be about 16th+ level.

So, maybe Human (half-Mulan/half-Nar) crusader (Kossuth) 2/ battle sorcerer 4/ jade phoenix mage 5/ raumathari battlemage 7 for a CR 18. He'd have a BaB +15, CL 14th, and an IL 12th. Feats: EWP (Bastard sword), Combat Casting, Quicken Spell, Rapid Metamagic, Power Attack, Battle Caster, Arcane Strike. Pretty nasty!!

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
669 Posts

Posted - 20 Mar 2022 :  14:58:24  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I propose a house rule for paladin orders that allow certain multiclassing. If a paladin order allows multiclassing as clerics, I would allow free multiclassing as a crusader. If the order allows multiclassing as a fighter, I would allow free multiclassing as a crusader or warblade. If the order allows multiclassing as a monk or rogue, I would allow free multiclassing as a swordsage.

If someone detects potential abuses, I would appreciate any heads up.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11169 Posts

Posted - 20 Mar 2022 :  19:42:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I propose a house rule for paladin orders that allow certain multiclassing. If a paladin order allows multiclassing as clerics, I would allow free multiclassing as a crusader. If the order allows multiclassing as a fighter, I would allow free multiclassing as a crusader or warblade. If the order allows multiclassing as a monk or rogue, I would allow free multiclassing as a swordsage.

If someone detects potential abuses, I would appreciate any heads up.



If I still played 3.5e (which I would if I had a group that wanted to mind you), I think this would be a good rule. I could, for instance, see a paladinic order of the Red Knight or Helm that allows leveling as crusader or warblade. Tyr and Torm could both fit the crusader/paladin option.

Along similar lines, monk orders might allow for combining with swordsage freely, going back and forth between the two classes (bypassing the normal rules that if you leave the monk class you can't keep leveling it).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4305 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2022 :  01:54:19  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I propose a house rule for paladin orders that allow certain multiclassing. If a paladin order allows multiclassing as clerics, I would allow free multiclassing as a crusader. If the order allows multiclassing as a fighter, I would allow free multiclassing as a crusader or warblade. If the order allows multiclassing as a monk or rogue, I would allow free multiclassing as a swordsage.

If someone detects potential abuses, I would appreciate any heads up.



Because we're talking about the Paladin, I'm not sure there can be much discussion about abuse - considering how poorly designed the 3.5 version is. That said, I don't think there's any issues with freely allowing the multiclassing between Martial Adept classes and the Paladin in general.

Going back over my Min/Max & Character Optimization ideas for 3.5 the only real "abuse" I can see with allows free mixing between Martial Adept characters and the Paladin is this...

Paladin 4/ Knight of the Raven 5/ Swordsage 1/ Shadow Sun Ninja 10. Three significant feats really helps bring this together. The first being Serenity (from Dragon Compendium) which allows paladins to use Wisdom for their Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, Smite Evil, and Turn Undead. Second is Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Deeds) which uses Wisdom instead of Strength with simple attacks (including Unarmed Strike). Third and final is Shadow Blade (Tome of Battle) that *ADDS* your Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with Weapons from the Shadow Hand discipline (including...you guessed it, Unarmed Strike) when in a Shadow Hand stance. If you apply the Swordsage Unarmed Strike adaptation (Tome of Battle, pg. 20) it gives you Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat and progresses like a Monk.

So what does all this mean? In Short, you're basing AC (from Swordsage), Attack rolls, Smite, Paladin Spells, Divine Grace, many Maneuver DCs, Lay on Hands, and Turn Undead all off of Wisdom. It takes the Paladin, often a MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependent) class into a one to two stat class easily. You'll have +16 BAB, 8th level maneuvers, Spellcasting of a 8th level Paladin, AMAZING saving throws, and the features of the Shadow Sun ninja (which mimic the monk including AC and Unarmed Strike progression).

Now, is this *broken*? Hard to say because so much is based round group composition, campaign style, what level are other player's min/maxing and optimizing, and how much focus combat and skills privy to the Swordsage/Ninja are going to be used? I'd say in a game with Wizards, core Druids, Clerics who use Nightsticks and spam Divine Metamagic then it'll be fine and probably underpowered. In a game with a bunch of tier 3 and 4 classes with maybe a "healing" cleric and a druid who doesn't try....it'll see like he'll have an answer for everything outside the Druid.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 21 Mar 2022 13:52:15
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
669 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2022 :  00:00:12  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is exactly the feedback I need about potential abuse. Fortunately, nothing urgent has come up yet.
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