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Diffan
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USA
3993 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2020 :  19:08:06  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Greetings Realms fans!

So while I was discussing issues about D&D in general on Facebook, one such topic came up about the options of the various editions. Of course people proudly boasted just how fantastic both 3.5 and Pathfinder were in the seemingly unlimited options there were for the system and how other editions, in this case 5E, couldn't come close. Now, of course the comparison isn't exactly fair since 5E has a much tighter release schedule AND the fact that the system isn't as loose with how multiple options are included.

This discussion came to the point of just how many Prestige Classes were available in 3.5/PF and that 5E probably couldn't match half that number. It's true, to a degree, that there are literally hundreds of Official WotC Prestige Classes for 3.5 and hundreds for Pathfinder and it probably isn't possible to make each and every single one fit into 5E's frame.

But this got me thinking, mostly about how 3.5 developed Prestige Classes from old 2E Kits and kind of how clunky they were. So despite 5E's archetype style (which is more loosely based off of 4E's Paragon Paths in implementation) being more limited, I feel it "fit" the character much better than the old way of adding on a whole separate class with it's own rules, stats, base mechanics, etc.

So after all this consideration, I was contemplating the notion of incorporating 3.5 and Pathfinder's Prestige Classes into more a of a Kit/Archetype/Paragon Path style. What this does, essentially, is marry one of these PrCs into a "Base" class for all intents and purposes of Hit Die, Skill ranks, BAB, and Saves plus any class-specific features of the "Base Class". What the Prestige Kit adds is possibly usage of new skills, spells, and special features.

For example in 3.5/PF a Rogue 5 can opt into taking his first level of Assassin (assuming he has the appropriate prerequisites). This gives him a new BAB track, new Saves track, more skill ranks, spells, poison use, etc. What if, instead, he simply got the Spells, Poison Use, and other special features but kept on being a "Rogue"? Special features that would normally stack (such as Sneak Attack) would simply remain with the Rogue levels (and thus, wouldn't get that progression).

Now you might ask yourself "Why do it this way?" and I have to say, there's a finesse to the later ways in which D&D handles these kits and special features. 4th Edition implemented them based on your Base class or race via Paragon Paths. You gained a sub-set of features and powers but also continued to make your base class better too (and sometimes Paragon Path enhanced these features). As 5E rolled out, they too adopted a similar style in which your base class provided a specialty version that gave you unique features that were modeled after these older aspects (Bladesingers, Bear Warriors, Eldritch Knights, etc.)

Second, this would instantly tamp down some of the more abusive shenanigans that often times creeps into 3.5/PF game play. For example, it's not unheard of to see something like Wizard 5/ Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Raumathori Battlemage 4 blah blah or maybe Rogue 5/ Assassin 3/ Spy Master 4/ Shadow dancer 5/ shadow thief of Amn 2. The system is the most Plug-and-Play version of D&D there is and with the plethora of alternative class features, multi-classing craziness, a billion feats, skill tricks, and a million Prestige Classes, well things tend to have a odd way of making one feature turn into some crazy monstrosity.

I'll post some concepts below, to sort of help give people a better understanding of how this variation would play out. If you have any ideas, concepts, criticism, feedback, etc. feel free to share!

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3993 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2020 :  19:54:24  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, looking back over this, I understand that not every prestige class is going to fit into a neat tiny box that will easily pair with the Base Class. This especially goes for PrCs that take two base-class concepts and merges them together like the Mystic Theurge or the Eldritch Knight. Which "box" do they fit into? How do they mesh with mechanics that joins sometimes seemingly two different concepts together. For these situations, I look to later iterations of the class and the most specific benefits of what the PrC offers and who benefits more from it. For another example, a PrC that's been talked about quite a bit has been the Sacred Fist prestige class. It's a hybrid Monk/Cleric that fuels both Cleric spells BUT adds more Monk features. For me, I see this far more as a Monk getting divine spellcasting via cleric spells rather than a Cleric who's adopted monk fighting abilities (but I can see both sides). Which Base Class carries more weight here and which one would it fit more? Honestly, I'd probably say the Clric benefits more simply be cause the Cleric Class is just so barren in terms of abilities. Turn Undead and Domain powers is literally all they get aside from spells. So in this scenario, I'd probably have the cleric gain a certain amount of monk features that would scale with that class. Thus you'd be a Monk 2/Cleric (sacred fist) 18.

Other times, it will require re-doing how things operate. For one, the Eldritch Knight is simply a hybrid of both a full-spellcaster and a warrior with good BAB. I would probably take a page out of 5th Edition's playbook and make this a Fighter Kit, giving it it's own spellcasting chart similar to the Assassin's in terms of Spells known/Spells per day. But I wouldn't limit it to certain schools of magic that it can access AND i'd have it so they can manage spells with Armor.

Another point that a friend of mine that I was discussing this with mentioned, was that it should be pretty universal. On one hand, I agree that having features hit at levels X, Y, and Z would make things easier to incorporate. But on the other, this variation is designed to be as unobtrusive to the mechanics of 3.5/PF as possible, and not every Prestige Class is obtained at the same interval - especially depending on which Base Classes you choose. I'm sort of torn on this because If I'm going to greater lengths to make this a "thing", should I take it further and rewrite MORE or make it as practical with the current rules as possible?

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Ayrik
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Canada
7184 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2020 :  00:42:12  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sometimes less is more. The earliest incarnations of subclasses, kits, and prestiges were often more versatile, intended to provide more generic subcategories to support specific character variations. I'm not saying they were always balanced or well-considered, some were underpowered or overpowered or just plain broken.

Contrast vs late-3E era where you'd have an half dozen bladesinger PrCs and another half dozen Drizzy-inspired drow swordsman/ranger PrCs. Each of these might have adherents but I don't see them as being very "unique" or "different" in any real way beyond a different weapon choice and maybe a handful of different usefully-related secondary abilities. A lot of page filler. Raw quantity itself does not make a game better or worse.

[/Ayrik]
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3993 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2020 :  01:58:27  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Sometimes less is more. The earliest incarnations of subclasses, kits, and prestiges were often more versatile, intended to provide more generic subcategories to support specific character variations. I'm not saying they were always balanced or well-considered, some were underpowered or overpowered or just plain broken.

Contrast vs late-3E era where you'd have an half dozen bladesinger PrCs and another half dozen Drizzy-inspired drow swordsman/ranger PrCs. Each of these might have adherents but I don't see them as being very "unique" or "different" in any real way beyond a different weapon choice and maybe a handful of different usefully-related secondary abilities. A lot of page filler. Raw quantity itself does not make a game better or worse.



That's a very good point. Prestige Classes certainly had their's ups and downs as far as concepts and balance goes. What I find funny is that there doesn't seem to be a point in the editions run where it was like *Bam* this point onward PrC were unequivocally AMAZING and broken. The gambit runs throughout the Edition's cycle from the DMG of 3.5 all the way through the final Complete Series of books and their 3rd or 4th iteration of a new magic system.

That definitely was an issue, especially as far as balance goes. To be fair there were officially only two version of the Bladesinger (Races of Faerϋn and Complete Warrior) though unfortunately both were exceptionally bad mechanically. I have do have a PDF created by Erik Scott deBie and Thomas Costa that had some alternative class features for the Duskblade and Swashbucker with Elven elements, including a Bladesinger version of the Duskblade that is, in my opinion, just 100% better than the two official versions we get. But I digress...

The interesting proposal here, by marrying a Prestige Kit (as I'm calling them) to a Base Class allows an easier flow of things like Hit Die, Skills, Base Attack, and Saves. Not that it was difficult, but it seemed to be one of those things that needed to always be recalculated each and every level based on the class you added on. Instead, this should streamline the notion more. Not only that, but I generally would limit it to simply one Prestige Kit per class, and if you want to multiclass then that would probably be the only way to get two (or three, etc.)

Of course this isn't without it's own problems. What about Prestige classes that only have 5 levels? What about ones that have 7 levels (there's a few, stupidly enough). I mean, it's a work in progress. It's also one reason I'm really contemplating making Prestige Kits trigger off of specific "Class Levels", which would lessen or remove some of the prerequisites altogether. This would mean certain PrCs might get a few features cut - but what are you going to do? Besides, a LOT of 10 level PrCs have many "dead" levels, meaning they get nothing substantial as a feature at certain levels (the Sacred Fist - as an example - only has 5 features out of 10 levels, spellcasting aside). So it wouldn't be too hard to pair it down to say 5 distinct features a Monk 2/ Cleric (sacred Fist) 7 would get.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3993 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2020 :  02:33:50  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So to get this to work, you need to study and refine each Prestige Class down to what really makes it tick and how to implement it into a Base Class element. To first do this, you have to pair the PrC with a Base class to which the other basics are followed. Here's a list from the DMG and which base class I feel best suits each one. Some can have multiple entry classes, so there's more variety but I only pulled Base Classes out of the PHB.

Dungeon Master's Guide
• Arcane Archer (Fighter or Ranger)
• Arcane Trickster (Bard or Rogue)
• Archmage (Wizard or Sorcerer)
• Assassin (Rogue)
• Blackguard (Fighter, fallen Paladin, Ranger, or Rogue)
• Dragon Disciple (Sorcerer)
• Duelist (Bard or Rogue)
• Dwarven Defender (Fighter or Paladin)
• Eldritch Knight (Fighter)
• Heirophant (Cleric or Druid)
• Horizon Walker (Druid or Ranger)
• Loremaster (Cleric, Sorcerer, or Wizard)
• Mystic Theurge (Cleric or Wizard)
• Red Wizard (Wizard)
• Shadowdancer (Bard, Ranger, or Rogue)
• Thaumaturgist (Cleric, Sorcerer, or Wizard)

EDIT After doing this list, and realizing that 3.5 has just SO MANY base classes, variant versions, options and mixes that it might be impossible to couple each and every single PrC to one specific class. Not to mention that it doesn't always work (see Mystic Theurge).

So I'm considering scrapping the WHOLE idea of t he coupling and instead paring down each and every Prestige Class into it's base elements, still accessible by their prerequisites (regardless of class) and going to a progression of 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, and 15th level Abilities.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 15 Apr 2020 13:58:09
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Ayrik
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Canada
7184 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2020 :  04:18:48  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've always tended towards the "flavour" vs the special rules.

If you want to specifically play a swashbuckler, a gladiator, a physician then you'll pick the appropriate kit/class regardless of whatever unique bonuses it will bestow (or lack), you don't care as much about how many levels it might offer.
If you want to powergame then you'll pick the kit/class which minmaxes efficiency regardless of the type of character you're (supposed to be) playing, you don't care about the "flavour" unless it gets in the way too much.

[/Ayrik]
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
350 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2020 :  09:15:54  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As an additional list of options, you may also want to allow players to tweak certain class features. This can all be done at 1st level in the same spirit a Realms priest could be a morninglord or a doomguide at 1st level per Faiths and Avatars 2e sourcebook. For instance, the duelist could easily be as much a fighter archetype as a rogue or bard.

Let the player ditch all armor and shield proficiencies, and two-handed or double-weapon proficiencies. Switch the strong saving throw from Fortitude to Reflex. Cut the number of bonus fighter feats in half. Add more skill points and add features such as elaborate parry and canny defense. This character still has d10 for hit points and a full BAB unlike the bard and rogue.

I also would consider allowing an XP tax for certain options. The Guild Wizard of Waterdeep PrC explicitly put in such as restriction. And of course, may the DM enforce the only one level difference policy for multiclassing.

Diffan definitely has undertaken a herculean labor. There will always be some gaping holes somewhere (Initiate of the Seven Veils *cough cough*), but the results will improve upon the "list of features and stats" shenanigans I have witnessed players impudently carry to my gaming sessions.

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3993 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2020 :  13:54:36  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

As an additional list of options, you may also want to allow players to tweak certain class features. This can all be done at 1st level in the same spirit a Realms priest could be a morninglord or a doomguide at 1st level per Faiths and Avatars 2e sourcebook. For instance, the duelist could easily be as much a fighter archetype as a rogue or bard.

Let the player ditch all armor and shield proficiencies, and two-handed or double-weapon proficiencies. Switch the strong saving throw from Fortitude to Reflex. Cut the number of bonus fighter feats in half. Add more skill points and add features such as elaborate parry and canny defense. This character still has d10 for hit points and a full BAB unlike the bard and rogue.


Well I wouldn't want to reinvent the wheel and there are alternative class versions for many of the 3.5 classes. For example, you can be a "Fencer" fighter from one of the Dragon magazines and you get certain unique class features, sometimes in place of Bonus feats. These are listed:

The fencer gains bonus feats as the normal fighter class does, but the fencer must select bonus feats from the following list: Acrobatic, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Persuasive, Quick Draw, Shield Proficiency, Skill Focus (any class skill), Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization.

Special Abilities: Starting at 4th level, the fencer may choose any of the following special abilities in place of a bonus feat:
Encouraging Blow: Whenever the fencer scores a threat against an opponent, regardless of whether it becomes a successful critical, he gains a +3 morale bonus to his Armor Class against that foe's attacks for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum of 1). If the threat becomes a critical, double the morale bonus. This ability does not work against creatures with an Intelligence score lower than 3 or those immune to mind-influencing effects.

Denigrating Banter: The fencer's method of fighting assaults his opponent's self-confidence and pride. Taunts and jibes are as integral to his methods as feints and thrusts. However, an accomplished fencer can do more than insult his opponent: he can add great weight to his superior air, cowing others. As a standard action, the fencer may bait and taunt a foe. The fencer and the target creature make an opposed Charisma check. If the target creature fails to equal the fencer's Charisma check, its base attack bonus is penalized by -2. This penalty increases by one for every 5 points by which the creature failed to equal the fencer's Charisma check. If the target's base attack bonus slips below the minimum required for any feat, special ability, or prestige class she possesses, she loses use of it until her base attack bonus again meets the requirement. A target whose base attack falls below what is needed to make multiple attacks with a full attack loses the appropriate number of attacks. This effect lasts a number of rounds equal to the fencer's Charisma bonus plus 1 (minimum of 1). The effects of multiple denigrating banter attempts do not stack. This is a language-dependant, sonic, mind-affecting effect. Creatures who cannot understand or hear the fencer are immune. A fencer may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma bonus.

Insurmountable Counter: With a quick read of his opponent, the fencer identifies one of his foe's techniques and assumes a fighting posture that nullifies it. When attacked by a foe using Power Attack or Combat Expertise, the fencer gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC.

They also get different skills as follows: The fencer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Ride (Dex), and Tumble (Dex).

I do get what you're saying though and I agree that each specialty priest could be called their respective title (Morninglord, Doomguide, Justicar, etc.) but I'd still have them take the prescribed Prestige Class for added flavor (and hopefully the appropriate Initiate feats too).

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I also would consider allowing an XP tax for certain options. The Guild Wizard of Waterdeep PrC explicitly put in such as restriction. And of course, may the DM enforce the only one level difference policy for multiclassing.


Yea, I've found that a LOT of people disregard the Multiclass restrictions that 3.5 put into place. Especially how it refers to certain races and the like. In a game that uses a system like this, I'd double-down on multiclass restrictions or possibly allowing only two altogether (so long as one of them is the race's Favored Class).

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Diffan definitely has undertaken a herculean labor. There will always be some gaping holes somewhere (Initiate of the Seven Veils *cough cough*), but the results will improve upon the "list of features and stats" shenanigans I have witnessed players impudently carry to my gaming sessions.



Haha, well thanks! I always find myself toying with 3.5 as some weird Frankenstein project. Whether it's new Prestige Classes, feats, some odd Character concept or what have you, it's hard to completely walk away - and let all this system mastery go to waste. But I try to incorporate things that I think other systems or Editions do better. For a quick example, I never liked the one-handed weapon in two hands = 1.5 bump from your Strength mod. It's....boring. I much rather like 5e's "Versatile" approach, just bumping up the die one notch (d6<d8; d8<d10; etc) and much more elegant.

For this project, I'm actually thinking of scrapping the idea of a base Class that's connected to the PrC altogether - seeing as how most Prestige Classes can be tied to SO many different classes across 3.5's total coverage. Instead, I'm thinking about just tweaking them all so that you automatically get features at 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, and 15th level. To continue to use my Assassin example, it might look something like this:

6th - Spells, poison use
8th - death attack, +2d6 sneak attack damage
10th - +2 saves against poison, uncanny dodge
12th - hide in plain sight, +4d6 sneak attack
15th - +5 saves against poison, improved uncanny dodge

This distilled version of the Assassin grants all the class features of a 10-level class and is allowed to be accessed to by other classes than just the Rogue. Further, you also get a few features early (ex. hide in plain sight comes in at 1 character level earlier). This also allows some tweaking and variation of class levels prior to 6th level when the PrC is accessed.

This formula would be applied as a standard across most (hopefully, ALL PrC) using this variation.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
350 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2020 :  14:44:55  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would like your opinions on alternate spellcasting progressions (or psionic manifesting) for PrC's versus advancing caster or manifester level. The assassin is a classic example of alternate spellcasting in DMG 3.5.
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sleyvas
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USA
9504 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2020 :  15:58:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Diffan,

Let me first add that I have only read your first two entries in this so far. I agree with your appraisal though, and its something I came to a while back to a degree. With things like the Mystic Theurge, what I did was write up a feat that could be taken that allows the character to increase the number of spell slots and level of spells they can "know" / "memorize" from various class mixtures. They're still limited by the number of spell slots from multiclassing, its just they now have more options on how to use those slots. I also added the ability to gain feats by permanently giving up 5 levels of hit dice (I got that idea from someone who was using spending hit dice to empower abilities in blood magic). I find that in a campaign where people don't really use hit dice, this gives them an option. I'd recommend looking at my old "Complete Red Book of Spell Strategy" for ideas there. I also opened up options for making variants of eldritch knights to simulate other prestige classes (like a fighter-necromancer, etc..) AND to also make an "eldritch knight" that's less fighter and more caster. On the idea of archetypes being prestige classes, I did a lot of that as well. While I won't say my ideas are pure gold, because I've seen some people come up with more intricate and better things for some since I wrote my stuff up, I think its a good basis for exactly what you're talking about.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 18 Apr 2020 16:05:23
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3993 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  13:09:10  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I would like your opinions on alternate spellcasting progressions (or psionic manifesting) for PrC's versus advancing caster or manifester level. The assassin is a classic example of alternate spellcasting in DMG 3.5.



I'm not really a fan of them. Usually the spell list bad or redundant and often times it relies on a stat that doesn't make much sense for a base class to put a lot of points into. The Assassin is an example of a poor spell list. It has cantrips as 1st level spells, you don't get near the amount you should, and other spells just cover Skills an assassin would already max out to make them redundant (like Disguise Self).

Another example was the 3.0 Bladesinger from Races of Faerϋn which took a class that requires Spellcasting then threw on a second Spellcasting progression, like why? 3.5 is only marginally better. I think what I did in one campaign was allow the character to continue advancing spellcaster levels (at 7/10 progression) and simply add the Bladesinger spells to their list of known spells. He was a Warmage so that ended up helping quite a bit.

For a good example of how this was implemented, I'd say the Knight of the Weave was far better done. They made it so there were multiple ways (and classes) to access this PrC. I feel it designed for Paladins specifically, because you can continue Paladin advancement after taking levels in this class. You base the casting off of Charisma (another paladin favored ability score) and then make it go to 6th level spells. You get multiple castings per day and the spell list is relatively decent.

EDIT: You also asked about advancing caster levels too, which I forgot to mention earlier. It really depends on the class and what the Prestige Class is trying to achieve. The problem is that there was almost no consistency across the Edition in terms of power-level and mechanics. Some example: The Warpriest PrC (Complete Divine) has 1/2 casting and a full BAB but only one good save. It's class features are really terrible - stuff that most normal clerics can do via spells or feats or even multiclassing. They lose 1/2 their spells too, which is terrible. Contrast this with the Sacred Fist, full Base Attack Bonus, two good saves and full casting.....And the class features are pretty decent as it bumps abilities of two separate classes.

Then you have other Prestige Classes that do odd combinations like 9/10 casting or 7/10 casting and there just doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason, lol.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 21 Apr 2020 15:39:39
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3993 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  15:50:40  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Diffan,

Let me first add that I have only read your first two entries in this so far. I agree with your appraisal though, and its something I came to a while back to a degree. With things like the Mystic Theurge, what I did was write up a feat that could be taken that allows the character to increase the number of spell slots and level of spells they can "know" / "memorize" from various class mixtures. They're still limited by the number of spell slots from multiclassing, its just they now have more options on how to use those slots.


That's an interesting take. What does the feat look like? It sounds like its similar to Practiced Spellcaster (as you increase the caster level up to your character level with a maximum of 4 HD). Is there a limit on what level this Feat reaches to?

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I also added the ability to gain feats by permanently giving up 5 levels of hit dice (I got that idea from someone who was using spending hit dice to empower abilities in blood magic). I find that in a campaign where people don't really use hit dice, this gives them an option.


This depletion of Hit Die, I'm assuming it takes away from their overall Hit Point pool and possibly affected by specifics spells? Like being more susceptible the Cloudkill or Sleep spells? Any other adverse things? I like the idea, just figuring out how it works. Or is this idea more for 5th Edition games?

quote:
I'd recommend looking at my old "Complete Red Book of Spell Strategy" for ideas there. I also opened up options for making variants of eldritch knights to simulate other prestige classes (like a fighter-necromancer, etc..) AND to also make an "eldritch knight" that's less fighter and more caster. On the idea of archetypes being prestige classes, I did a lot of that as well. While I won't say my ideas are pure gold, because I've seen some people come up with more intricate and better things for some since I wrote my stuff up, I think its a good basis for exactly what you're talking about.



I'll definitely give it a look. I'm always about supporting other D&D fan-based material

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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