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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
502 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Apr 2024 : 04:51:53
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I've been wracking my brain on this for years since both Races of Destiny and Champions of Valor were released. Where would the Illumians likely fit the Realms?
I was actually thinking they originated from Jhaamdath, and were the product of some psionic ritual that some cabal that performed a psionic version of the Ritual of Words Made Flesh (which is mentioned in RoD). Much as nations like Netheril, Imaskar, etc. get so much exposure, I thought this would be a change of pace.
What do you folks think of that idea? Where do you place their origin?
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Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2024 : 10:14:32
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The examples given in Champions of Valor pretty much cover the field. Being an "add in" it's hard to tie them to ancient Reams history.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2024 : 16:35:37
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| We were discussing sticking them over on other continents, like there's some mountains in Maztica which are rumored to have an unknown culture there, and I figured an isolationist group of illumians would fit the bill. Sticking some on the moon in a colony would also be fruitful. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2024 : 19:09:20
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| I like the idea that they evolved from some worshipers of Deneir or some such that discovered part of the MetaText. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2024 : 18:55:47
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I like the idea that they evolved from some worshipers of Deneir or some such that discovered part of the MetaText.
That's a good take. That being said, it would also be a good idea if they have a colony here specifically because they are interested in Deneir as a god. It may even be that Deneir himself is an Illumian who came to this world and his final utterance ascended him.... and possibly his final utterance actually has something to do with the metatext.
I also wonder if there might be ties between the Illumians and the dabus of Sigil (or more likely the Phirblas of 2nd edition MC planescape appendix 3). The Phirblas "speak" via runic utterances that appear in the air above their heads and are from a demiplane called Inphirblau. Deneir might instead have ties to the Phirblas as well, but its not necessary. Having there be an ancient city of the Phirblas that is no longer inhabited, but has ties to Inphirblau via a portal that noone knows how to open, and this ancient city is being inhabited now by Illumians who seek to uncover more about the Phirblas makes a good story.
If you did place the Illumians on the moon, I'd personally recommend them also having an interest in the runes that cover(ed) the interior of the crystal sphere (see spelljammers realmspace book). It might even be interesting if Deneir's ascension came from him reading a rune on the crystal sphere that acted like Karsus' Avatar spell to some degree.
If one wanted to create some kind of continuity as well that keeps the idea that there WAS a crystal sphere surrounding realmspace previously and that it has RECENTLY disappeared to follow 5e's ideas of Wildspace systems.... then perhaps when Deneir "disappeared" as a part of the spellplague, he was "written" onto the shell of the crystal sphere as a rune... and when he was released, maybe it did SOMETHING that released the power of the weave contained in the crystal sphere... and this helped resurrect Mystra and possibly even other gods. Just a thought. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Apr 2024 20:43:48 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2024 : 20:09:08
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I like the Dabus link too Sleyvas!
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2024 : 20:24:58
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I like the Dabus link too Sleyvas!
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
502 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2024 : 00:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The examples given in Champions of Valor pretty much cover the field. Being an "add in" it's hard to tie them to ancient Reams history.
-- George Krashos
I saw those. I just thought they sounded a little too usual for them and could have a less common origin than those. I mean, there's been so much focus on Netheril, Halruua, Nimbral and Thay that it seems like a borderline retread. Murghom or the Hordelands, maybe, but still, I haven't heard much of anything originating from Jhaamdath (besides Elans, according to my friend Eytan Bernstein, IIRC). Why not? |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2024 : 00:06:06
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I like the Dabus link too Sleyvas!
Thanks. I'm not sure exactly HOW to link them to the Dabus yet mind you, especially given their ties to the Lady of Pain and Sigil... a notedly deity-less place.
I would also note that 17 years ago we through out some discussions on this topic here
http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9626
So, relooking at that topic, we discussed that there's been a falling out with the githyanki, in that they raided Library of the Sublime on the Astral in the last few centuries years prior to the spellplague and forced the demigod Aulasha to flee the library.
Then factor in that Champions of Valor recommends putting them in Nimbral.
Then factor in that Nimbral has ties to spelljamming vessels. Throw in the idea that the githyanki have astral ships known for planeshifting.
So, what if the githyanki invaded the Library of the Sublime aboard astral ships... and illumians BOARDED AND ESCAPED IN some of these astral ships, piloted by illumian Cerebremancers (those who study arcane magic and psionics). Then using Githyanki "astral charts" they came to realmspace and discovered Nimbral, as well as the githyanki asteroid known as "Stardock". Maybe Stardock has many things stolen from the Library of the Sublime.
Then, while these illumian refugees may have taken residence in a corner of Nimbral, maybe they've also setup residence on the moon, separate from the inhabitants of the "Leira Trading Center" on the dark side of the moon. These might be different illumian "cabals" with different goals.
For instance, a Quill Cabal in Nimbral may be focused on recovering things stolen from the Library of the Sublime that have made its way into Toril's libraries and trading for other "lore" with individuals all over Toril. This cabal may also have a focus on learning magic and have taken up worship of Deneir, Azuth, Mystra and Leira as a result. If you wanted to open up something unusual, having the Illumian demigoddess Aulasha the Librarian living amongst this cabal, and acting as a servitor goddess to Deneir in return for his protection, and also being protected by Leira's illusions to hide the Illumian sanctuary from their enemies.
Meanwhile, a Vengeance cabal on the moon may literally be at war with the githyanki of stardock to recover things stolen from the Library of the Sublime, as well as just seeking to subtly ruin Githyanki holdings in general. It might be that this cabal is beneath the moon's surface, and it may even be that it has ties to the plane of shadow via a portal to the Illumian city of Elirhondas, wherein resides their demigod Tarmuid. Maybe they have a single "metal gate" to the surface that's covered by illusion to bring small spelljamming vessels in and out. Its followers might not only worship Tarmuid, but also Leira and Mask.
Finally, a root cabal on the spelljamming "world" known as Garden may live on "Yggdrasil's Child" and may seek to keep this world alive as well as work against the foul pirates that hide amongst its thriving limbs. They may believe that study of "Yggdrasil's Child" will lead to uncovering the secrets of Trueroot as well. There is even a place that absolutely fits this idea in canon, in the form of the "moon" known as Templar, which is "circular" being 50 miles in diameter, but only 12 feet thick. Its said that its inhabited by "hundreds of mages of all classes" who study Garden hoping to understand its secrets and who trade in magic items ... so it very well could be a root cabal with druids and mystic theurges that might include wizards, sorcerers, warlocks serving fey patrons, and wu-jen focusing on wood and water.
As a final thought... we don't know exactly how many centuries ago the Library of the Sublime failed or when the first Illumians were created. An ascension cabal may be entirely focused on Karsus and his ascension to godhood, or we may find out that Karsus attempted to steal his ritual FROM illumians and managed to transform himself into an Illumian as part of his process to become a deity. Alternatively, an ascension cabal may very much be interested in Velsharoon the Vaunted, the goddess Siamorphe, and/or other deities of the realms. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Apr 2024 00:21:59 |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
502 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2024 : 04:38:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I like the Dabus link too Sleyvas!
Thanks. I'm not sure exactly HOW to link them to the Dabus yet mind you, especially given their ties to the Lady of Pain and Sigil... a notedly deity-less place.
I would also note that 17 years ago we through out some discussions on this topic here
http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9626
So, relooking at that topic, we discussed that there's been a falling out with the githyanki, in that they raided Library of the Sublime on the Astral in the last few centuries years prior to the spellplague and forced the demigod Aulasha to flee the library.
Then factor in that Champions of Valor recommends putting them in Nimbral.
Then factor in that Nimbral has ties to spelljamming vessels. Throw in the idea that the githyanki have astral ships known for planeshifting.
So, what if the githyanki invaded the Library of the Sublime aboard astral ships... and illumians BOARDED AND ESCAPED IN some of these astral ships, piloted by illumian Cerebremancers (those who study arcane magic and psionics). Then using Githyanki "astral charts" they came to realmspace and discovered Nimbral, as well as the githyanki asteroid known as "Stardock". Maybe Stardock has many things stolen from the Library of the Sublime.
Then, while these illumian refugees may have taken residence in a corner of Nimbral, maybe they've also setup residence on the moon, separate from the inhabitants of the "Leira Trading Center" on the dark side of the moon. These might be different illumian "cabals" with different goals.
For instance, a Quill Cabal in Nimbral may be focused on recovering things stolen from the Library of the Sublime that have made its way into Toril's libraries and trading for other "lore" with individuals all over Toril. This cabal may also have a focus on learning magic and have taken up worship of Deneir, Azuth, Mystra and Leira as a result. If you wanted to open up something unusual, having the Illumian demigoddess Aulasha the Librarian living amongst this cabal, and acting as a servitor goddess to Deneir in return for his protection, and also being protected by Leira's illusions to hide the Illumian sanctuary from their enemies.
Meanwhile, a Vengeance cabal on the moon may literally be at war with the githyanki of stardock to recover things stolen from the Library of the Sublime, as well as just seeking to subtly ruin Githyanki holdings in general. It might be that this cabal is beneath the moon's surface, and it may even be that it has ties to the plane of shadow via a portal to the Illumian city of Elirhondas, wherein resides their demigod Tarmuid. Maybe they have a single "metal gate" to the surface that's covered by illusion to bring small spelljamming vessels in and out. Its followers might not only worship Tarmuid, but also Leira and Mask.
Finally, a root cabal on the spelljamming "world" known as Garden may live on "Yggdrasil's Child" and may seek to keep this world alive as well as work against the foul pirates that hide amongst its thriving limbs. They may believe that study of "Yggdrasil's Child" will lead to uncovering the secrets of Trueroot as well. There is even a place that absolutely fits this idea in canon, in the form of the "moon" known as Templar, which is "circular" being 50 miles in diameter, but only 12 feet thick. Its said that its inhabited by "hundreds of mages of all classes" who study Garden hoping to understand its secrets and who trade in magic items ... so it very well could be a root cabal with druids and mystic theurges that might include wizards, sorcerers, warlocks serving fey patrons, and wu-jen focusing on wood and water.
As a final thought... we don't know exactly how many centuries ago the Library of the Sublime failed or when the first Illumians were created. An ascension cabal may be entirely focused on Karsus and his ascension to godhood, or we may find out that Karsus attempted to steal his ritual FROM illumians and managed to transform himself into an Illumian as part of his process to become a deity. Alternatively, an ascension cabal may very much be interested in Velsharoon the Vaunted, the goddess Siamorphe, and/or other deities of the realms.
Interesting. Still, how do you feel about my idea of Jhaamdath? |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2024 : 16:31:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Interesting. Still, how do you feel about my idea of Jhaamdath?
What about multiple events that transpire across the timeline? The Ritual of Words Made Flesh need not be a single ritual discovered/created by one group at once point in time, or at least a singular event from which all Cabals of Illumians are created.
Check this out:
So initially in Realmspace, around -450 DR and during the height of the Netherese Empire, they're experimenting with magic, psionics, the astral plane, and planar elements. They stumble across some texts that would - as they later decipher - become what they know as the Words Made Flesh ritual. Now this ritual is pretty powerful, and so a cabal of Mystryl's clergy (along with those who venerate Denier and Oghma if those deities were around then, I believe they were) decide to keep it pretty close to the chest. They undertake the ritual and are changed.....for lack of a better word. For a century, they fit into Netherese society as Cerebremancers and psionic-infused individuals and even create their own floating city [name lost to obscurity].
In the year -339 DR, they're struck with a deep sense of dread and foreboding that a cataclysmic event is immanent and so they basically abandon ship. As Karsus's Folly unfolds, like their Sharran and Selūnite brethren, they make for the quickest exit. Many find their way to Jhaamdath to the south while other flee far West beyond the coast of Swords to Nimbral while other flee south towards Halruaa.
Fast forward a mere 80-some years later. It's the year -255 DR and a second generation of Jhaamdath illumians are once again faced with a very real external threat, the elven High Magic ritual. Maybe they're receiving visions from a deity (newly formed Mystra or maybe Oghma or Denier with his Metatext) but it's enough for many of them to leave abruptly. I'd think some would stay, the psionicist's life of Jhaamdath feels right for many of them, especially those that fled the aftermath of Karsus's Folly in Netheril. So those that stayed likely died in the aftermath of the elven high magic.
Where did the others go? North to Narfell? Another plane of existance - somewhere like the Astral Plane where the origins of their ritual were discovered? Maybe some went East to the empires of Kara Tur while others visited the continent of Zakhara, maybe even help establish the Wizard's Reach area. But I'd like to think that Illumians have done a good job of utilizing their wits and survival instinct to fit in among the more metropolitan areas where magic is seen of a more mundane nature - like the coastal city of Waterdeep or in some places of Cormyr (Suzail, Marsember).
For their Cabals, I'd think that they'd remain pretty low-key in most places. Think Red Wizards (pre- Szass Tam's Unmaking Rituals) as they operate outside of Thay. They're different enough to garner attention with their floating sigils and people still don't know too much about them as a true people. So they would keep a low profile for the most part.
Just some random Head Canon ideas that tries to turn the concepts from Champions of Valor into a workable time-table. I also like the idea that Cabals can be derived from different uses of the Words Made Flesh ritual too. Stemming from an origin point of finding the ritual in the Astral Plane, some of them took it back to Netheril while others grabbed it and went to Jhaamdath (or even got into elven hands and they were turned into Illumians when the ritual was completed). When Netheril fell, the Jhaamdathans welcomed their northern cousins into their Cabals or maybe they were allowed to make new Cabals. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2024 : 21:00:20
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Regarding using Jhaamdath in this mix... and also, I'd prefer to stay away from the idea that Illumians STARTED here... we too often have this thing where things HAD to start here. Its much easier if they just CAME here, and it also makes it much more believable. But taking some of what Diffan just said and spinning it ever so slightly.
So, let's look at what was going on around the times that Netheril fell, Jhaamdath fell, Halruaa and Nimbral rose, etc..
A new "race" of humans known as the "Elan" would come about in a convoluted way in Jhaamdath. While we have a story behind their "creation" its not in cement.
An offshoot "race" of humans known as the "Karsites" would be born haphazardly from those who could trace their bloodline back to Karsus... almost like he was trying some sort of experimentation.
Netheril had developed the ability to create Magen .... a new form of construct mind you, but almost like they were trying to create a new "race" of magically created bodies.
Karsus became infatuated with the idea of being able to ascend to godhood.
Down in Mulhorand, a relatively close neighboring country, gods lived amongst mortals, and mortals were being "infused" with godhood via rituals to become "godkings".
Spelljamming was known of and being explored to at least some degree by the Netherese, and the "gods" of Mulhorand had come to Toril astride a pair of very powerful spelljamming ships.
As an aside... later down the road... in the city of Westgate, which arguably may have been tied to Jhaamdath... on an altar in the Hills of the Seven Lost Gods.... multiple powerful entities got together to create a new "mortal body" ... possibly several times... in the form of the Alias clones
So, what if the Netherese and Jhaamdathi had heard of these Illumians, and had heard that some of them had ascended to demigod status? Karsus' whole idea may have been driven by having heard these rumors and deciding he could do something similar himself.
Maybe the powerful people during this time were consumed with the idea that they could create their own variation of the ritual of words made flesh. Maybe even they were trying to find snippets of the ritual. Maybe even they heard of the ritual portion being held by an Eclipse Cabal, invaded despite their vast protections, and managed to steal the secret. Possibly even an eclipse cabal that already existed somewhere in Faerun. What would happen as a result?
Well, if this were the case, then said Eclipse Cabal would be consumed with reacquiring said secrets..... maybe even to the point of misleading some elves into performing a High Magic Ritual to create a tidal wave and destroy the entire civilization as a result? Maybe even to the point of subtly guiding a deranged mage into trying to usurp the power of a goddess of magic?
In this scenario, perhaps the members of this Eclipse Cabal had set themselves up a hidden base in Nimbral (or perhaps in multiple locations, more on that later) and were using magic to transport to the areas they needed to in Faerun, and they had interactions with not just Jhaamdath, but also Netheril. Then perhaps when they were done, either
A) they left behind their base and centuries later when the Library of the Sublime fell other Illumians came to it in desperation for a place to live or
B) they never left their base and when the Leiran worshippers from Halruaa came to Nimbral it was with the aid of this secretive sect of Illumians or
C) something else that I haven't remotely thought of, but will soon.
If this were the case as well, it very well could fit the case that one of these Illumians MAY have actually have used a variation of Karsus' spell BEFORE Karsus.... and become Deneir. He very well could have subsumed the power of one of the surviving gods of the Orcgate Wars ... and removed the name of this being from history as a god of the written word.
As another thought, I like the idea of these beings also having interested in magics besides wizardry (for instance, psionics definitely fits them). The idea that they would be very interested in binding magic, which involves using glyphs to gain access to the power of vestiges, just screams a link in my book. It might be interesting if a cabal was working in the region where Peleveria existed down in the Shaar. To note, Peleveran was the city built into the side of the Landrise, which deep in its depths was the "Pit of Maleficence" in which Gargauth had been entrapped. I very much like the idea if this Pit of Maleficence is much like the "wells of darkness" linking to "shattered Night" from Dungeon #148 by Eric Boyd (ironically the same person that created Peleverai and the story of Gargauth's entrapment).
So, what if some Illumians were using the "Pit of Maleficence" in a similar way to what's been described in the Well of Darkness module from dungeon 148? Hmmm, what if THEY were involved even with the "deaths" of some of the gods that disappeared when Netheril fell (or even some gods that disappeared during the orcgate wars)... some that became vestiges... like Amon/Amaunator... and Karsus. Maybe they even entrapped Gargauth. Hell, maybe they worked with the dark three to some degree (now I'm picturing the Black Lord's Cloak that was supposedly worn by Bane as having ties to entrapped individuals in the Pit of Maleficence). The original Gilgeam may be entrapped in the Pit of Maleficence at the behest of Bane for all we know. For all we know, Entropy is some kind of an extension of the Pit. (to note, throwing Entropy into this mix also opens up possible ties of Pandorym, Imaskari, Plangent crystal, etc...)
Hmmmm, now I'm spinning ideas in my head for how to tie the death of Murdane, Jhaamdathi goddess of pragmatism and reason, during the tidal wave that destroyed Jhaamdath into the rising of Deneir. Nah, that's just too dark.
Just throwing out some thoughts as seeds, interested to see if any of this bears fruit, and interested to see if maybe Diffan can take some of it and spin it in an even better way. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Apr 2024 21:28:14 |
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Most likely origin of Illumians in the Realms?
