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Icarium81
Acolyte
Canada
6 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jan 2022 : 06:48:42
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Having just tried to get back in to the books I used to think so highly of, I can only be blown away by how terrible most of them are. For Ed, every last character is a caricature and devoid of a consistent personality, the number of ridiculous things thinking characters do or don't do is astonishing.
The plot armor is real thick. Then there's the actual way he writes, he's pretentious to say the least. It's clear he thinks he's better than anyone else, (or maybe he knows he isn't and embraces that) either way, his attempt at having characters talk "old timey" is just a whole lot of repetition of "ye"...ad nauseum. Or "diabolic" if you read elminster in hell. The only thing diabolic was that it was ever published.
Even more disturbing is Ed's very clear desire to fk young women. None of the female characters has a personality that makes them do anything other than try to sleep with ancient old wizards....
He claims Mirt is his in realms avatar, so mirt rescues a baby, raises her as a daughter.... then marries her... yup, that's normal. It's also not the only instance where things are glaringly creepy.
I'm almost finished spellstorm and it's awful, not sure if it's worse than in hell, but wow it's a close race for sure.
Magic doesn't work here folks..... except to have a dozen arch mages/wizards show up and be let in by mystra... fair enough.... then it simply doesn't work anymore..... unless it does when the plot needs it to work... or it's the weave...
Claims that magics set prior to entering no longer work.... unless they need to, again for the plot or laziness or convenience.
This really seems like it was written solely for Ed to kill off some characters, off stage and sloppily.
Elminster can't figure out who's killing who to save anyone's life.... a lich opened gate pops up and he immediately knows the life story of everything that's ever come through it and what's on the other side and their motives..... WOW. Because that certainly tracks straight and true doesn't it.
Also didn't download the audiobook just to listen to them throw supper party after supper party and to tell terrible jokes. His editor should have slapped him with a brick before saying he'd publish this awful book.
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Edited by - Icarium81 on 27 Jan 2022 14:08:28
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
275 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2022 : 07:45:16
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| This is a long-standing criticism of the FR in general. When you have a fantasy world with "strong magic", the 'deus ex machina' technique is sometimes (a LOT of times) needed to get out of poor plot writing. The only real way out of this is to reset the realms to a "low magic" world similar to LotR. But that would take a lot of the fun out of it. Greenwood is actually one of the better FR writers, wait till you read some (most) of the others. As to sex being in the FR,,, well, IMO, it's not what I came here for. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2022 : 09:20:08
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| Markov chains? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Icarium81
Acolyte
Canada
6 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2022 : 09:24:03
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Elfbane, clearly you missed the part where I stated I've read damn near everything published in FR. From the old TSR days, to the WoTC era.
I don't mind sex in my books, quite enjoy it if it's done well and fits in to the plot, but to just throw it in to appeal to teens .... and the exact nature of Ed's tastes, give me a break ffs.
As to the too powerful nature of blah blah blah. Poor writing is poor writing. HE chose to write with those characters that HE created, the least he could do is learn who to write well with his chosen subjects.
If you want to read how a magic filled and powerfully filled world is done, read Steven Erikson. You'll never read another fantasy setting novel and enjoy it as much. |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
275 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2022 : 12:04:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Icarium81
Elfbane, clearly you missed the part where I stated I've read damn near everything published in FR. From the old TSR days, to the WoTC era.
I don't mind sex in my books, quite enjoy it if it's done well and fits in to the plot, but to just throw it in to appeal to teens .... and the exact nature of Ed's tastes, give me a break ffs.
As to the too powerful nature of blah blah blah. Poor writing is poor writing. HE chose to write with those characters that HE created, the least he could do is learn who to write well with his chosen subjects.
If you want to read how a magic filled and powerfully filled world is done, read Steven Erikson. You'll never read another fantasy setting novel and enjoy it as much.
Damn, is this how you snark someone who agreed with you? I'm waiting to see how you treat someone who disagrees! |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
275 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2022 : 12:11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Icarium81
Elfbane, clearly you missed the part where I stated I've read damn near everything published in FR. From the old TSR days, to the WoTC era.
Yep, I missed that part. Probably because it's not in your original post. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2022 : 16:11:11
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Ed is an amazing worldbuilder, but his fiction doesn't work for me. My main issue, though, is that there is too much going on in his books. Characters, cabals, and conspiracies pop up and vanish just as quickly. I get that he's trying to show that there's a lot going on in the Realms, all the time, but having all those unconnected bits in a novel makes me feel like I've walked into the middle of a movie, and I don't know who's who or what they're doing.
quote:
Originally posted by Icarium81
Even more disturbing is Ed's very clear desire to fk young women. None of the female characters has a personality that makes them do anything other than try to sleep with ancient old wizards....
He claims Mirt is his in realms avatar, so mirt rescues a baby, raises her as a daughter.... then marries her... yup, that's normal. It's also not the only instance where things are glaringly creepy.
Okay, first of all, you're assuming that the characters are a reflection of the person. Just because something a character does something, it doesn't mean it has anything to do with the writer's personality. Plenty of Ed's characters are never seen even so much as flirting, much less actually sleeping with other characters, so it's clearly a false assumption to say that since one character does, it's a reflection of the author.
And I can think of other examples in fiction -- and at least one in the real world -- where a man raises a young girl and later marries her. This is not purely an Ed Greenwood thing. It may be something you find creepy, but different people -- and different cultures -- may take another view on it. What is and isn't acceptable in a relationship is not a universal standard.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Icarium81
Acolyte
Canada
6 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2022 : 23:37:27
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| Woody I'll fully agree that he doesn't know how to connect all the random things he interjects. It is definitely as you say, him trying to appear clever or show a busy world, yet I've read other authors, Steven Erikson, who has an intensely busy world, across a 10 book main series, and half a dozen auxiliary books and aside from a little bit of poor continuity with dates, he manages a much deeper, more chaotic, more character filled world with many different factions. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2022 : 02:51:35
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| I haven't read all of Ed's books, but I've enjoyed the ones I have read. As a substitute for playing D&D, they're pretty good. And they contain a lot of lore I can use in my own games. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2022 : 05:21:50
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| Wr can infer building a world and writing a good, coherent story are different skills, if not mutually exclusive. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2022 : 16:58:54
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I've only ever communicated with Ed via email; and truly only a very limited number of times...that is the qualifier for my statement:
Ed is an awesome guy. Ed created a world that thousands enjoy. Ed FREELY shares in storytelling and is HAPPY when others add onto the Forgotten Realms.
Inferring that he is creepy is your perception...to which you have a right. That doesn't mean it is fact.
I love Ed's stories. Not because they are brilliant masterpieces that will some day be taught at universities; but because they are Every Man stories told by a genuine guy who tells stories to entertain because that brings him happiness.
That's enough for me. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2022 : 18:27:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I've only ever communicated with Ed via email; and truly only a very limited number of times...that is the qualifier for my statement:
Ed is an awesome guy. Ed created a world that thousands enjoy. Ed FREELY shares in storytelling and is HAPPY when others add onto the Forgotten Realms.
I can back this up, myself. I've also communicated with Ed via email, and it's true: he's happy to be creating something and happy when others add to or or enjoy it.
(A while back, I shared part of an email conversation I'd had with Ed, concerning the The Five Shires -- I was quite surprised, recently, when I saw that bit on the page for the pdf on DriveThruRPG!) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Icarium81
Acolyte
Canada
6 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2022 : 10:07:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I've only ever communicated with Ed via email; and truly only a very limited number of times...that is the qualifier for my statement:
Ed is an awesome guy. Ed created a world that thousands enjoy. Ed FREELY shares in storytelling and is HAPPY when others add onto the Forgotten Realms.
Inferring that he is creepy is your perception...to which you have a right. That doesn't mean it is fact.
I love Ed's stories. Not because they are brilliant masterpieces that will some day be taught at universities; but because they are Every Man stories told by a genuine guy who tells stories to entertain because that brings him happiness.
That's enough for me.
If by "every man" stories, you mean world changing over powered super characters, than yes, we can fully agree that he's writing great "every man" novels.
There is no inference of creepiness, It's slap you in the face creepiness and over serialization that adds no worth whatsoever beyond putting it in there for other creeps. Name one single scenario where fkn your adopted infant doesn't seen creepy? Or where every fat old man is the desire of every buxom bombshell of a woman, because he only has two kinds of women, stunning drop dead gorgeous main characters and then every other woman as an npc of zero note, except maybe her breasts.
It would be a hair better if the noticing of someone's tits was at least done via a characters POV, or had ANY relevance whatsoever to the scene, but nope, he injects it via his own narration of the scene when it adds nothing at all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2022 : 15:44:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Icarium81
There is no inference of creepiness, It's slap you in the face creepiness and over serialization that adds no worth whatsoever beyond putting it in there for other creeps. Name one single scenario where fkn your adopted infant doesn't seen creepy? Or where every fat old man is the desire of every buxom bombshell of a woman, because he only has two kinds of women, stunning drop dead gorgeous main characters and then every other woman as an npc of zero note, except maybe her breasts.
Okay, can we stop with the mischaracterizations? These encounters have all involved ADULT women, not infants. What you described is an entirely different thing that has never been even hinted at, and describing it as such is a gross distortion of the case.
You want to say Mirt and Asper hooking up is creepy, that's fine -- but don't lie about it to push your narrative. 
Also, we've seen exactly one fat old man pursued by exactly one woman. Not exactly a case of "every" one of them.
There's also more information about Mirt and Asper; one of Ed's players, who has read a lot of Ed's unpublished material, described how the two hooked up. When it happened, Asper was an adult who had already had other lovers, and Mirt had been dodging her advances, because of his paternal role. Granted, it wasn't in a novel, but that's still not a reason to automatically assume the worst possible scenario.
Again, you want to say it's creepy, that's fine. Just stop assuming you have all the information about it when you clearly do not, and can it with the deliberate skewing of things to make them seem worse than they are. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Jan 2022 15:45:43 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2022 : 17:09:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Icarium81
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I've only ever communicated with Ed via email; and truly only a very limited number of times...that is the qualifier for my statement:
Ed is an awesome guy. Ed created a world that thousands enjoy. Ed FREELY shares in storytelling and is HAPPY when others add onto the Forgotten Realms.
Inferring that he is creepy is your perception...to which you have a right. That doesn't mean it is fact.
I love Ed's stories. Not because they are brilliant masterpieces that will some day be taught at universities; but because they are Every Man stories told by a genuine guy who tells stories to entertain because that brings him happiness.
That's enough for me.
If by "every man" stories, you mean world changing over powered super characters, than yes, we can fully agree that he's writing great "every man" novels.
There is no inference of creepiness, It's slap you in the face creepiness and over serialization that adds no worth whatsoever beyond putting it in there for other creeps. Name one single scenario where fkn your adopted infant doesn't seen creepy? Or where every fat old man is the desire of every buxom bombshell of a woman, because he only has two kinds of women, stunning drop dead gorgeous main characters and then every other woman as an npc of zero note, except maybe her breasts.
It would be a hair better if the noticing of someone's tits was at least done via a characters POV, or had ANY relevance whatsoever to the scene, but nope, he injects it via his own narration of the scene when it adds nothing at all.
I was calling Ed the every man...not his characters.
Every man is different than everyman.
Every man likes to tell tall tales.
An everyman is a humble stock character that most people can identify with and be drawn in by.
Ed is like every other man that likes to tell stories...but ya know, he himself IS an everyman because he IS humble and he IS someone that tens upon perhaps hundreds of thousands of people worldwide have identified with.
It feels as if you have a personal axe to grind with Ed...perhaps you should take that up with him personally instead of trying a hatchet job here at Candlekeep.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but your vitriol is still out of place and out of tune with the spirit of Candlekeep. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2022 : 17:44:58
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-Was never a fan of his writing and all of his books were slogs to get through. Never liked the overt sexuality that I am remembering came up a lot more often in his books as opposed to the stuff written by other authors, cause I read the books for schlocky fantasy fun in a world I liked, so I'd criticize anyone else that I felt had too much of that too; not a specific criticism about him.
-That said, sourcebooks like Code of the Harpers or the Volo's Guides are great. I think the way he writes is much better suited for encyclopedic-with-personality things like those books rather than novels.
EDIT: Cormyr was pretty good, now that I'm thinking about it. The historical parts of the founding of the kingdom, mostly. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 29 Jan 2022 17:51:54 |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
275 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2022 : 23:24:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, can we stop with the mischaracterizations? These encounters have all involved ADULT women, not infants. What you described is an entirely different thing that has never been even hinted at, and describing it as such is a gross distortion of the case.
You want to say Mirt and Asper hooking up is creepy, that's fine -- but don't lie about it to push your narrative.
Also, we've seen exactly one fat old man pursued by exactly one woman. Not exactly a case of "every" one of them.
There's also more information about Mirt and Asper; one of Ed's players, who has read a lot of Ed's unpublished material, described how the two hooked up. When it happened, Asper was an adult who had already had other lovers, and Mirt had been dodging her advances, because of his paternal role. Granted, it wasn't in a novel, but that's still not a reason to automatically assume the worst possible scenario.
Again, you want to say it's creepy, that's fine. Just stop assuming you have all the information about it when you clearly do not, and can it with the deliberate skewing of things to make them seem worse than they are.
@ Icarium81
You may(will) consider this a Warning. It usually takes Wooly a LOOONG time to get pissed off, but you've managed it. Keep it up and you will be gone. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2022 : 01:34:27
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quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
@ Icarium81
You may(will) consider this a Warning. It usually takes Wooly a LOOONG time to get pissed off, but you've managed it. Keep it up and you will be gone.
No, I can't -- and won't -- ban someone for something like this. No rules have been broken.
But I will call people on it when I see deliberate misinformation.
I've seen other cases, in fiction and real life, where a man raises a young girl and later marries her. And yeah, it's reasonable to look at that and find it unusual, at the very least.
But it's not reasonable to blatantly twist it into something it's not. I've got an issue with that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Icarium81
Acolyte
Canada
6 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2022 : 05:51:13
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quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, can we stop with the mischaracterizations? These encounters have all involved ADULT women, not infants. What you described is an entirely different thing that has never been even hinted at, and describing it as such is a gross distortion of the case.
You want to say Mirt and Asper hooking up is creepy, that's fine -- but don't lie about it to push your narrative.
Also, we've seen exactly one fat old man pursued by exactly one woman. Not exactly a case of "every" one of them.
There's also more information about Mirt and Asper; one of Ed's players, who has read a lot of Ed's unpublished material, described how the two hooked up. When it happened, Asper was an adult who had already had other lovers, and Mirt had been dodging her advances, because of his paternal role. Granted, it wasn't in a novel, but that's still not a reason to automatically assume the worst possible scenario.
Again, you want to say it's creepy, that's fine. Just stop assuming you have all the information about it when you clearly do not, and can it with the deliberate skewing of things to make them seem worse than they are.
@ Icarium81
You may(will) consider this a Warning. It usually takes Wooly a LOOONG time to get pissed off, but you've managed it. Keep it up and you will be gone.
Only one?
In just the elminster saga we've got the masses sleeping with him, then there's vangerdahast also having his protege or whatever wanting to sleep with him, quite literally after describing himself as fat and way way too old for the young thing, to which she smiles and kisses him. It's been a long time since reading most of his works, so those are the only 2 I can come up with for now, but 2 for 2 isn't a swell start.
I can recall one of his short stories where El went to a wizards fair, and kissed whoever he was meeting, a beauty no doubt, and she passed him the key to something via the kiss, totally plot related, no issues or complaints whatsoever there. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2022 : 09:45:45
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I'm intrigued as to the purpose of you posting here Icarium. Whilst I suspect that Candlekeep is the next in a long line of FR/RPG devoted sites that you have graced, and I know that you won't be here in a year's time, I'm wondering why you need the validation you are clearly seeking? RPG fanbases have taught me that there is a multiplicity of opinions, and very, very little alteration in those opinions once stated. You've stated yours, so no need to beat a dead dragon over and over. My polite suggestion is that you move on to another topic if you have anything constructive to add. Your views in respect of Ed Greenwood's fiction are noted. They are not unique.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2022 : 15:12:28
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There is definitely stuff to critique about with Ed's writing, but the problem is your assessment of his writing comes off too much like a rant rather than a review. Especially when you make less than generous assumptions about his personal character. This is isn't really the place for that. Most people at Candlekeep have a great amount of fondness and respect for Ed Greenwood because he is in essence the creator of this setting that virtually all of us are big fans of.
I think Ed's writing can be an acquired taste, particularly with his use of archaic English here and there. But it's not offensive to me at all, and I'm not even a native English speaker. I rather like it myself, and I don't mind learning and looking up words in a dictionary either.
And the other thing that has been the curse of much Forgotten Realms literature, is that the writers themselves aren't really that free to write what they want, unless you're somebody like RA Salvatore. Often the editors or other top folk at TSR or WotC have been told them what events have to happen in their books. Personally I want mundane Conan the Barbarian style sword and sorcery setting, rather than a heavyaction, explosive Michael Bay-esque high magic fantasy setting, which FR is most often depicted as through the books. |
Edited by - deserk on 31 Jan 2022 15:15:17 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2022 : 12:39:49
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| Aside from Ed's writing style, which I don't care for, the main thing that bothers me about what seems to be every Greenwood Realms novel is that magic always seems to be unavailable or unstable. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2022 : 19:33:46
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I really enjoy Ed's books. I think they're silly fun and have a lot of crazy concepts. I don't require them to be similar to "normal" D&D.
The only book I disliked was the conclusion to the Spellfire trilogy.
That book's ending seemed incredibly mean spirited and depressing, unlike the other two. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Elminster book saga
