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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 03:58:05
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After reading Realmspace (SJR2) for the first time, I have to say I'm a little disappointed. On one hand, we have Toril, a world with every imaginable terrain and life-form on it. Then we have a handful of planets that are essentially one-trick gimmicks:
"Look, it's a Beholder planet!"
"Look, it's an Illithid planet!"
"Look, it's a water planet! ...And here's another one!" (Because we obviously needed two.)
I was hoping for more Toril-like planets, essentially unmapped versions of Faerun for players to explore, or planets with their own human cultures, kingdoms, and histories.
Has anyone found any use for the Realmspace planets? I can see them being fun for a short adventure, maybe, but for deep-dives they seem too shallow to offer much fun. Personally, I'm thinking of ditching one of the water planets and turning it into a fertile, Earth-like planet for the players to explore. That seems far more interesting to me than a planet that is essentially just the Elemental Plane of Water, but smaller.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 05:50:01
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I liked Coliar, Anadia, and Garden, from what I recall (it's been a while since I perused the book at length), though I could have done without the knock-off of the Dread Pirate Roberts.
H'Catha is physically interesting, but I don't care for the beholders or the thing of them going up the Spire to get super-smart. And seriously, "Large Luigi"? I mean, it's better than Krynnspace's "Little Biggnome" but that's a pretty low bar to set.
Skull of the Void was meh, and Caer Windlauer is just painful. Caer Windlauer could be more interesting if there was no backstory at all -- someone just found it one day, and no one knew where it came from. Add in some runes or something else that can't be tied to anywhere in Realmspace, and you've got some real potential, there.
The info on Toril and Selūne, as I have oft stated before, is better ignored.
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 09:23:30
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| Selūne had the weirdly sexist writeup, right? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 12:37:55
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I agree that they didn't invest a lot of time into each world. I think that's because they were basically being forced to design SO MANY worlds all at once. Honestly, they had to be getting a little jumpy for any idea to tag onto a planet. At the same time, I feel like each world has just enough paint on it to allow someone to come in and keep the core elements true and do something else with it by adding to it.
I liked Coliar, and I feel like the water world with the giant fish with strange powers could definitely be linked to something more horror like (its just to the average person going there, they only see glimpses of it). Basically, that water world could definitely do with some cthulhu like vibes, and I definitely like the idea of putting a huge population of deep sea races that don't come out of the water (i.e. sahuagin are very special creatures that can come out and breathe air...). I could see populating it with anguilians, eyes of the deep, krakens, morkoths, etc... Essentially take the Sea of Fallen Stars supplement and triple the number of different factions.
On Selune having a weirdly sexist writeup.... not sure what that's about, but they did have a weird culture based on being art enthusiasts and worshipping Leira. I've spoken here several times about how I would change that, whilst trying to stay true to the original. I had originally been thinking of an underdark culture being there, and recently I've been even more considering a "hollow moon" idea in which the surface people and many of those who live on the interior are part of the same society.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 19:28:32
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On Selune having a weirdly sexist writeup.... not sure what that's about, but they did have a weird culture based on being art enthusiasts and worshipping Leira.
Hedonistic art enthusiasts who worship Leira, have multiple ports where they freely welcome visitors and allow them to wander about -- and who are so deeply paranoid of Toril that if they know you're from there, you'll be executed in hours.
So apparently these deeply paranoid hedonistic art lovers have never considered the possibility that someone might lie about where they're from.
And really, that's a great summary of my issues with that write-up: it's about illusion-worshiping deeply paranoid hedonistic art lovers on the moon. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 21:48:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On Selune having a weirdly sexist writeup.... not sure what that's about, but they did have a weird culture based on being art enthusiasts and worshipping Leira.
Hedonistic art enthusiasts who worship Leira, have multiple ports where they freely welcome visitors and allow them to wander about -- and who are so deeply paranoid of Toril that if they know you're from there, you'll be executed in hours.
So apparently these deeply paranoid hedonistic art lovers have never considered the possibility that someone might lie about where they're from.
And really, that's a great summary of my issues with that write-up: it's about illusion-worshiping deeply paranoid hedonistic art lovers on the moon.
So, basically Austin Powers combined with Marvin Boggs (John Malkovich) on RED. Yep, I can see that. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 22:01:20
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
So, basically Austin Powers combined with Marvin Boggs (John Malkovich) on RED. Yep, I can see that.
But instead of hiding away, like Marvin Boggs did so thoroughly, they're out having a good time like Austin Powers.
Mayhaps it's just me, but it seems really hard to reconcile "So afraid of sky people that we kill them as quickly as we can" with "hey everyone, come hang out with us, sell us stuff, and have a good time!" |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 22:43:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
So, basically Austin Powers combined with Marvin Boggs (John Malkovich) on RED. Yep, I can see that.
But instead of hiding away, like Marvin Boggs did so thoroughly, they're out having a good time like Austin Powers.
Mayhaps it's just me, but it seems really hard to reconcile "So afraid of sky people that we kill them as quickly as we can" with "hey everyone, come hang out with us, sell us stuff, and have a good time!"
(I forgot the  in my previous post but I can run with that thought.)
What, you mean to say you never dated a psychopath? Everything is find and dandy and then one day you say "I like people with green eyes" and suddenly she wants to wear your skin for Halloween. And here I thought that was quite common.
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"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 22:56:38
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| And even if you take out the hedonistic art-loving part of the illusion-worshiping deeply paranoid hedonistic art lovers on the moon gig, you have to wonder: if their whole society is terrified of an invasion, why aren't they either A) fortifying or B) leaving? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Apr 2021 22:58:46 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2021 : 02:37:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
So, basically Austin Powers combined with Marvin Boggs (John Malkovich) on RED. Yep, I can see that.
But instead of hiding away, like Marvin Boggs did so thoroughly, they're out having a good time like Austin Powers.
Mayhaps it's just me, but it seems really hard to reconcile "So afraid of sky people that we kill them as quickly as we can" with "hey everyone, come hang out with us, sell us stuff, and have a good time!"
Yeah, but what's the sexist part about??? Silly, but? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2021 : 02:45:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And even if you take out the hedonistic art-loving part of the illusion-worshiping deeply paranoid hedonistic art lovers on the moon gig, you have to wonder: if their whole society is terrified of an invasion, why aren't they either A) fortifying or B) leaving?
My take on this is to turn the knife a slight degree. Make it that they're not terrified of the surfacers. Make it that they're LYING to everyone about being terrified of the surfacers in order to cover up why they're hiding the truth about their civilization. They interact with and allow people to come there in order to trade, but they don't want people digging too deep into their ports. So, they say its because "we're paranoid of those surface folk coming up here to kill us"... and people laugh at them and say "they're so stupid".
Think of it a little bit like one of the original Battlestar Galactica series first stories. They landed on this world that was an entertainment world with a huge casino, but they didn't want anyone digging into the casino and its secrets. The story there was that they were taking visitors and kidnapping them to be processed as food. My spin would be that they're hiding a truth about their civilization (and for those that haven't heard my further spin on it, they're hiding the fact that they aren't really elves and humans, but rather another kind of fey.... kin to the the shadow elves/arak of Ravenloft who were originally known as "ellefolk" and who may have ties to the shadar-kai. Many of the human dock workers are "changelings", which is their version of a being whose shadow they've stolen and turned into an emotionless worker who lives to perform some activity they were good at (i.e. take the shadow of a blacksmith, and the "changeling" works to become a master smith with little concern for anything else, all while his mortal body fades). In doing this, you can also see how people might say they have these people who are just "fanatics" about art... they take the shadow of an artist and the "changeling" that results wants to do nothing but try to create masterworks of art. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Apr 2021 02:52:20 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2021 : 02:54:24
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| -I like the concept of Glyth because it would be cool to think about what it would be like the Illithid accomplished actually subjugating everyone/everything they came into contact with, but not enough was put into it. But that's about it. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2021 : 03:35:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And even if you take out the hedonistic art-loving part of the illusion-worshiping deeply paranoid hedonistic art lovers on the moon gig, you have to wonder: if their whole society is terrified of an invasion, why aren't they either A) fortifying or B) leaving?
My take on this is to turn the knife a slight degree. Make it that they're not terrified of the surfacers. Make it that they're LYING to everyone about being terrified of the surfacers in order to cover up why they're hiding the truth about their civilization. They interact with and allow people to come there in order to trade, but they don't want people digging too deep into their ports. So, they say its because "we're paranoid of those surface folk coming up here to kill us"... and people laugh at them and say "they're so stupid".
Think of it a little bit like one of the original Battlestar Galactica series first stories. They landed on this world that was an entertainment world with a huge casino, but they didn't want anyone digging into the casino and its secrets. The story there was that they were taking visitors and kidnapping them to be processed as food. My spin would be that they're hiding a truth about their civilization (and for those that haven't heard my further spin on it, they're hiding the fact that they aren't really elves and humans, but rather another kind of fey.... kin to the the shadow elves/arak of Ravenloft who were originally known as "ellefolk" and who may have ties to the shadar-kai. Many of the human dock workers are "changelings", which is their version of a being whose shadow they've stolen and turned into an emotionless worker who lives to perform some activity they were good at (i.e. take the shadow of a blacksmith, and the "changeling" works to become a master smith with little concern for anything else, all while his mortal body fades). In doing this, you can also see how people might say they have these people who are just "fanatics" about art... they take the shadow of an artist and the "changeling" that results wants to do nothing but try to create masterworks of art.
So everyone on the planet pretends to be paranoid, while executing people, and this is to hide things while letting people wander around freely? 
Sorry, I'm not seeing it. I personally don't see any real way to make the existing information work. Something has to be thrown out.
It's much simpler to do away with the Leira part and the illusion, have them live either on the dark side or on the terminator line, and forget the paranoia. Say the info in Realmspace came from some crazed hermit or something, as a way of working around it... If not just ignoring it altogether. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Apr 2021 03:37:03 |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2021 : 08:46:07
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The same issue plagues TV shows, movies, and science fiction games; it's really difficult to make a whole world that is detailed when you have limited space. There are thousands of pages on a small portion of Toril and just a few pages on all the other worlds. It's impossible for them to compete. On top of that, no air world, fire world, or water world is going to be as "interesting" as an earth world is to a bunch of people who are familiar to earth worlds. :)
I'm dealing with the same sort of things in my current Spelljammer campaign, which has taken the party to Krynnspace; there's a lot of planets, but they're mostly mono-environments or hostile to adventuring. Some definitely should be the latter; not everything should revolve around the players, but mono-environments should usually be avoided in my opinion. Most of all, they need to seem like self-sustaining places in their own right, even if they aren't places that PCs would likely go.
I think the best thing to do is handle things locally; if you need an adventuring location, make it and specifically make it local; PCs aren't going to explore a whole world of any sort, ever, so it is best to avoid talking about anything beyond the location in question. There are a lot of places for adventuring: The Tears of Selune can have any number of places that are a few miles wide, Garden can have a whole host of adventuring locations, Selune itself is more than large enough to have a similar variety to Faerun, Coliar can have all sorts of things spinning through the atmosphere, etc.
What I would recommend is this: Don't toss out what Realmspace says about the planets, but also don't be constrained by them. Does Realmspace say anything about a nation of avariel, or a nation of tinker gnomes within it? No, but it is big enough to have such a thing, so if you want that to exist there, it can. Make what the book says be a dominant culture or nation, but not the sum total of a planetary body's inhabitants. There's plenty of space to put in whatever you need.
As a sort-of example, if you watch through Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, there are discrepancies that essentially follow what I'm suggesting. TNG introduced both the Trill and the Ferengi in such a way that made it clear that the members of the Federation knew very little about them; but by DS9, which was just a few in-world years later, they were clearly part of the long-term fabric of the setting. Treat Realmspace the way DS9 treated TNG: A basis from which to flesh things out, but don't be afraid to tweak and twist things to make it work better for your campaign. But also stick with the essence so what you do can be easily adopted by others, or so you can easily adopt from others.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2021 : 11:10:10
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I get that there's only so much you can do in limited space. Even so, what we have for Selūne just doesn't work. If they'd devoted twenty pages to just the moon, it would still be an entry about illusion-worshiping deeply paranoid hedonistic art lovers on the moon.
They worship Leira but don't seem to care anything about illusions -- except for one existing one. They'll swiftly murder someone for being from Toril, but otherwise they welcome everyone without a thought and let them wander freely. They fear invasion but don't do anything about it, aside from the aforementioned swift murders. The hedonistic art lover aspect is the one most emphasized in the write-up, but that's still quite incompatible with the paranoia.
Something has to give to make the rest work. The illusion thing is problematic and the paranoia is problematic, and this is all in a source that has other questionable info -- like the reference to a group of Moonshae assassins mentioned nowhere else. This is why I think it best to assume this was something like a Volo's Guide entry, but it was written by someone who'd never actually been there and was working with second- or third-hand information. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2021 : 22:55:54
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I'm not disagreeing that there are problems, but I'm also opposed to chucking it all entirely, in part because any interesting fanon developed that way is useless to people who want to stay closer to the canon.
Some of the ways that we could stick to the spirit but "fix" the details are make the paranoid aesthetes just one nation of many, but one that exerts control over the others (perhaps economically, perhaps magically, perhaps militarily). Or maybe they use the paranoia of Toril to keep other nations submissive and ensure their fealty. This paranoia could be a feature of the nobility, but not the peasantry. This creates potential political intrigue that can be turned into adventures for the PCs. Maybe they help some of the other nations overthrow the Leirans, or maybe they are secretly used by the Leirans to create more fear and paranoia about the Torilians.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2021 : 00:10:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And even if you take out the hedonistic art-loving part of the illusion-worshiping deeply paranoid hedonistic art lovers on the moon gig, you have to wonder: if their whole society is terrified of an invasion, why aren't they either A) fortifying or B) leaving?
My take on this is to turn the knife a slight degree. Make it that they're not terrified of the surfacers. Make it that they're LYING to everyone about being terrified of the surfacers in order to cover up why they're hiding the truth about their civilization. They interact with and allow people to come there in order to trade, but they don't want people digging too deep into their ports. So, they say its because "we're paranoid of those surface folk coming up here to kill us"... and people laugh at them and say "they're so stupid".
Think of it a little bit like one of the original Battlestar Galactica series first stories. They landed on this world that was an entertainment world with a huge casino, but they didn't want anyone digging into the casino and its secrets. The story there was that they were taking visitors and kidnapping them to be processed as food. My spin would be that they're hiding a truth about their civilization (and for those that haven't heard my further spin on it, they're hiding the fact that they aren't really elves and humans, but rather another kind of fey.... kin to the the shadow elves/arak of Ravenloft who were originally known as "ellefolk" and who may have ties to the shadar-kai. Many of the human dock workers are "changelings", which is their version of a being whose shadow they've stolen and turned into an emotionless worker who lives to perform some activity they were good at (i.e. take the shadow of a blacksmith, and the "changeling" works to become a master smith with little concern for anything else, all while his mortal body fades). In doing this, you can also see how people might say they have these people who are just "fanatics" about art... they take the shadow of an artist and the "changeling" that results wants to do nothing but try to create masterworks of art.
So everyone on the planet pretends to be paranoid, while executing people, and this is to hide things while letting people wander around freely?
Sorry, I'm not seeing it. I personally don't see any real way to make the existing information work. Something has to be thrown out.
It's much simpler to do away with the Leira part and the illusion, have them live either on the dark side or on the terminator line, and forget the paranoia. Say the info in Realmspace came from some crazed hermit or something, as a way of working around it... If not just ignoring it altogether.
They don't wander around freely. Per canon, they refuse to let anyone mine on the world, and there's nothing to say that they won't confine them to the space ports. If they're hiding something under the surface, this fits. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2021 : 00:46:19
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
I'm not disagreeing that there are problems, but I'm also opposed to chucking it all entirely, in part because any interesting fanon developed that way is useless to people who want to stay closer to the canon.
Some of the ways that we could stick to the spirit but "fix" the details are make the paranoid aesthetes just one nation of many, but one that exerts control over the others (perhaps economically, perhaps magically, perhaps militarily). Or maybe they use the paranoia of Toril to keep other nations submissive and ensure their fealty. This paranoia could be a feature of the nobility, but not the peasantry. This creates potential political intrigue that can be turned into adventures for the PCs. Maybe they help some of the other nations overthrow the Leirans, or maybe they are secretly used by the Leirans to create more fear and paranoia about the Torilians.
Jeff
This is how I feel, and it has been a longstanding realms tradition to try and make something work rather than chuck it all out and start over. In a way, that's what the spellplague was. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2021 : 01:08:47
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| Realmspace evokes the same sense of wonder and excitement as the Netheril boxed set for me. I wonder what they have in common .... |
--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 28 Apr 2021 01:09:48 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2021 : 05:17:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
They don't wander around freely. Per canon, they refuse to let anyone mine on the world, and there's nothing to say that they won't confine them to the space ports. If they're hiding something under the surface, this fits.
Page 26: "Crews are free to roam anywhere, except for a few designated areas. Even then, the only penalty is a polite escort to the nearest non-secret location." |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2021 : 05:39:07
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
I'm not disagreeing that there are problems, but I'm also opposed to chucking it all entirely, in part because any interesting fanon developed that way is useless to people who want to stay closer to the canon.
Some of the ways that we could stick to the spirit but "fix" the details are make the paranoid aesthetes just one nation of many, but one that exerts control over the others (perhaps economically, perhaps magically, perhaps militarily). Or maybe they use the paranoia of Toril to keep other nations submissive and ensure their fealty. This paranoia could be a feature of the nobility, but not the peasantry. This creates potential political intrigue that can be turned into adventures for the PCs. Maybe they help some of the other nations overthrow the Leirans, or maybe they are secretly used by the Leirans to create more fear and paranoia about the Torilians.
Jeff
I didn't say throw it all out -- I said something had to give. Some element has to be removed to make the rest work.
I get trying to keep with canon, I really do -- but this is a Spelljammer product, and we've got to either break its canon or break canon Realmlore, because there are places the two are simply incompatible (like the Moonshae assassins mentioned nowhere in Realmslore). And Spelljammer had a poor record of sticking with canon of the groundling campaign worlds; the most notable example is Krynnspace stating that Krynn's moons form the point of an equilateral triangle. Since it's Dragonlance canon that two and sometimes all three moons have conjunctions and can overlap each other, forming the Night of the Eye, then there is no way to reconcile these things.
Spelljammer is my first love of D&D settings, but given a choice between what a setting's material says, and what Spelljammer says about that same setting, I'm going with the setting material.
And everything that's happened to the Realms since 3E was released has, at long last, broken me of my thing of "gotta stick to canon".
Me, if I had to fix the issues with Selūne's write-up in Realmspace, I'd only keep the art-happy hedonists.
Drop the illusion; it's too problematic to explain why Leira is holding a big illusion on another deity's turf, or why it didn't fail during the ToT or with Leira's death, or why Cyric would bother maintaining it.
Drop the paranoia, it's incompatible with the art-happy hedonist angle, and doesn't explain why they'd stay there and not do a damn thing to prep for the invasion they're terrified about, and it also doesn't explain why they don't have agents in major Faerūnian ports keeping an eye out for such thing or a navy to help defend them.
The goddess Selūne would of course have a lot of influence with the society there. Sune, Sharess, and Lathander would as well, since they cover the other published aspects of this society. Shar would also have her hooks into things, and it seems reasonable to include Eldath. Maybe also Helm, to help watch over everyone and try to keep troublesome elements -- like the Sharrans -- from causing issues. And we'd need Sehanine Moonbow and some other members of the Seldarine, too.
This is just to start. Obviously, there needs to be more going on, more elements to make it interesting. It might be worthwhile to include some natural resource that is widely treasured for some reason, and this could be the reason for not allowing mining. I'd also limit the number of ports, it seems odd that such a small body would have "fifty-some" ports. I'd cut that to less than a dozen, maybe only a handful, and at least one of them would have to have a rather different mix than what the rest of the moon has.
What if we re-used something we've already seen in the Realms? Maybe Selūne had some scattered early human settlements, and a large group of elves, fleeing the Crown Wars or some major disaster, came to the moon? They could have started over, and eventually allowed the humans to become part of their society, leading to the current mix. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Apr 2021 05:46:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2021 : 05:42:55
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Realmspace evokes the same sense of wonder and excitement as the Netheril boxed set for me. I wonder what they have in common ....
I never noticed that before. 
There are large parts of both supplements that I'd keep. Keeping on topic, most of what's in Realmspace is workable or needs only minor tweaking. It's the Toril- and Selūne-specific lore that's problematic. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2021 : 07:08:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Caer Windlauer could be more interesting if there was no backstory at all -- someone just found it one day, and no one knew where it came from. Add in some runes or something else that can't be tied to anywhere in Realmspace, and you've got some real potential, there.
Yes, but (rephrasing Max Frei) Realmspace is full of two-bit clairvoyants! More so after Savras was returned to circulation. 
I mean, how long the mysteries that aren't well protected (like artifacts) are going to remain mysteries?
Maybe various interested parties and ever-present priests claiming something for the glory of their particular gods may muddle the water. Sure.
But it's going to clear up very soon after people with capabilities like Legend Lore, Object Reading etc want to look into it. Perhaps not even because they are interested in Mysterious Object X as such, but via investigating something else: "Was X also linked with Y? Let's check!".
quote:
The info on Toril and Selļæ½ne, as I have oft stated before, is better ignored.
Why? It was without rhyme or reason as presented, sure. But with the later story about trying to shoot the King-Killer Star it works well enough. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2021 : 10:40:18
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The info on Toril and Selļæ½ne, as I have oft stated before, is better ignored.
Why? It was without rhyme or reason as presented, sure. But with the later story about trying to shoot the King-Killer Star it works well enough.
I've already listed some of the reasons. Selūne, because of the illusion-worshiping but not illusion-creating deeply paranoid hedonistic art lovers hiding under a ginormous nonsensical illusion. Toril, because so much of the info either isn't backed up anywhere else, or is actively contradicted in Realmslore. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2021 : 13:16:03
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Putting aside the Selūne issues... Shou Lung's presence in space is an issue, to me. It's not a Shou thing, it's the disruption I've previously discussed of having flying ships interacting with groundling nations.
In Shou Lung's case, it's particularly problematic, given that if they had access to flying ships, why weren't they used against the Tuigan? All they would have had to have done is flown over at 1000 feet and dropped rocks, sharp pointy things, and caltrops, and they could have done huge amounts of damage whilst staying relatively safe. Even a handful of ships could have done a lot to blunt the Tuigan horde.
My thought is to remove Shou Lung's spelljamming from Shou Lung itself.
Idea: the Shou somehow made their way into space hundreds of years ago. It didn't go well, though, for some reason, and the effort was mostly abandoned.
But not entirely. A few ships were still sent aloft, mostly as a token thing, every so often.
Then there is some sort of dynastic issue. Maybe a prince was a little too eager to ascend, or had committed some major faux pas and needed to be removed from the picture for a little while. So he's stuck on a dragonship and told not to come home for a while.
This prince sets up (or is sent to) a Shou outpost somewhere else in Realmspace .(I'd have to look at the book again to find a good spot) Whatever his reasons for being there, this prince takes his job seriously, and does his best to run the place well. In time, this outpost grows, becoming a full-fledged city.
Support from the groundling Shou continues for a while, before eventually tapering off. By then, the city is large enough and has enough trade with other spelljammers that it doesn't need that connection with its parent nation. It essentially becomes an independent colony, maintaining its own military and trade. They still consider themselves to be Shou, and may even maintain low-level contact with the Shou on Toril, but this colony stands on its own.
The end result is you keep a strong Shou presence in space, but you don't have to deal with the issues of a groundling nation that is alone on its planet in having a strong spelljamming fleet.*
(I discount both Thay and Wa, here, for a couple of reasons. Yes, Thay has made its own ventures into space, but the Quads can't make into the Flow on their own, and it seems to be more of a series of independent ventures rather than any serious national effort. Wa I discount because they're tiny and paranoid, focused more on Shou Lung than anything else. They hide their ships from their own people, and their efforts are more of a "protect ourselves, no matter where" thing than an attempt at having a presence in space) |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Apr 2021 15:21:43 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2021 : 19:35:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Besides for the Cloakmaster books, what instances are there of Spelljammers being used in some capacity? The Elven armada is mentioned in Evermeet is all I can think of.
There's a story or two in the Realms of books involving spelljammers. An elven Man-O-War, the Monarch Mordent fought in some battles in the Fall of Myth Drannor (the Three Greenwing Wars) before it was brought down. It's now the lair for the green dracolich Dretchroyaster and a central element of my elfbane golems (a Realmsified warforged variant) that I wrote up. |
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Spelljammer: Rethinking Realmspace
