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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Sep 2020 : 02:06:44
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I know that much of the concept of the four elements actually has its roots in Asian cultures, and in the realms this has certainly followed in the lore of Kara-Tur.
But what about the other regions? If you’ve seen any of my posts of course you know my question is centered around the Aztec/Maya/Indigenous North American/Incan regions of Maztica, Anchorome and Lopango respectively, but I’d like to open this topic up to just about anywhere outside the standard areas currently covered in 5e (Sword Coast, etc).
I’d like to hear about anything from actual FR lore to real world historical connections or even your own homebrew. Thoughts?
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Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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louis_bowwow
Acolyte
14 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2020 : 05:25:54
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| I know that Zakhara/Al Qadim are filled with elementalists. Numerous secret societies there are dedicated to a specific element(Brotherhood of True Flame, Geomancers, etc.). The place is also filled with genies. Other than that, I am not aware of any areas having any elemental ties, with the exception of maybe Calimshan. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2020 : 05:30:52
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| Thay has a heavy dose of Elemental ties; even if not elementalists. Kozzuth comes to mind for sure...that being much before 5th edition however. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2020 : 06:39:48
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| You might be confused; there’s the concept of the Five Elements in some Asian cultures, but the Four Elements goes back to Ancient Greece. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2020 : 06:42:06
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Nothing in the official lore talks about elementalists in Maztica as far as I know.
As you said, the biggest non-european elementalists group would be the wu gen. plus they have the "wood" element.
Then next would be Zhakaran, adding "sand", and to a lesser extent the geomancers.
If I were to do elementalists, I might have them as some kind of witch-doctor / shaman character in a native group. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2020 : 07:49:55
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
You might be confused; there’s the concept of the Five Elements in some Asian cultures, but the Four Elements goes back to Ancient Greece.
Mea culpa. I won’t make that mistake again. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
Edited by - Seethyr on 01 Sep 2020 07:53:36 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2020 : 15:42:17
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I haven't done much development with them, but I've been pondering some ideas that I kind of talked about in another thread about a month back. It harkens back to a degree to the Avatar: the Last Airbender concepts, but with less of an asian vibe and more of a Polynesian and South American / African vibe. Its also kind of spread out in different regions.
SIDENOTE : There's a DM's Guild product called Incarnate: Last of the Lacers on DM's Guild that was someone trying to make an adaptation of avatar across editions of D&D, and he's apparently produced more stuff that's all pay what you want that might be worth looking through (I'll be putting all these links at the end of this, as I'm going to download them myself after I write this up.... he's gone to some effort, so it appears to be not entirely broken and could probably be used as an adaptation). This introduces two classes. Lacers are the elemental fighters. Samsari are the elemental wisemen.
On to Specifics
LOPANGO
I'd like there to be in Lopango more of a tie to fire than what you've done with the Natican and their sun god Intiri. My idea was to have a group of fire "benders" in the lowest tip of Lopango (the very bottommost tip that you don't have on your map) a long time ago, and these people were either killed off AND/OR they just dwindled in population (if killed off, possibly in fighting jungle orc encroachment). They live around some volcanos and they worship Tezca. Their temples are step pyramids like what we also see Kossuth using in Thay and the Mazticans as well, but they're made of obsidian. This obsidian is however very smoothed, as if worked magically rather than chiseled. They are redder or darker of skin (so an actual red, nut brown, or black skin), and they "learned" their magic through studying the Lopangan winged fire cobra (a couatl like creature) and its relative the spitting firesnake.
Image of a Lopangan winged firecobra https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4548819
Image of a Spitting Fire Snake fighting some size tiny mousefolk https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4520117
Both of these creatures were also studied by the batrachi long ago, when they lived in this region, and perhaps the humans who become “benders” are also building on some lost batrachi lore they discovered. The firesnakes are also common in the northwestern part of Katashaka, which I'm calling “the Western Pridelands”, where they survive on a population of tiny, short-lived, primitive mousefolk. These “western pridelands” are also inhabited by cat folk (tabaxi, wemics, lamias, and what I call “lenastans” for lion folk) who also thrive on the tiny, beleaguered mouse folk. To note, the recent mythic odyssey of Theros has a leonin race that would work for the rulesets of the “Lenastans”.
Back to these “fire lacers” humans, I picture them as being originally slaves in service to a more powerful race. They were serving the Gold-Clad Giant Kings from your Lopango work to gather gold. The Gold-Clad Giant Kings were “earth lacers” in that they studied the art of combining earth elementalism with combat. They were also “earth samsari”, which are more like “earth shamans” if you will... they're less on fighting and more on meditation/study. Thus, this culture of humans studied not just fire but earth “magics”, by studying these stone giants that they served. When the humans start studying “fire lacing”, its maybe because Intiri sent them messengers via the Lopangan winged Firecobras to teach them the art of fire.
I mention the Western Pridelands of Katashaka because I picture that area and this tip of Lopango as having once been connected. Something happened and a huge portion of the continent connecting the Lopango peninsula and northern Katashaka literally sank beneath the waves. In your mythology, this is when the god Virachoa decided to punish the Stone Clad Giant Kings, at the behest of his son, the Sun god Intiri, and because they'd “turned from his worship to the worship of gold”. Virachoa summoned the rain god Azul and directed him to drown the giants. Azul goes overboard and Virachoa ordered him to stop, but Azul refused. Virachoa and Azul fought, and Azul was “split” into Azul and Koni the god of destruction. Perhaps a twist on this can be that the Gold-Clad Giant Kings had discovered the batrachi/slaad lords Ygorl the Lord of Entropy, Bazim Gorag the Firebringer and Ssendam the Lord of Madness in some old batrachi ruins. They started taking cursed gold from ancient batrachi cities and were forming idols to the slaad lords. Perhaps this is why Intiri told his father to kill them, because Bazim-Gorag the firebringer was a threat that he had contained long ago. Maybe Azul's “overstep” is somehow being turned mad by the slaad lord Ssendam the Lord of Madness. Maybe the slaad lord Ygorl the lord of Entropy has some hand in taking the divine blood of Azul that's spilled and combining it with the flood waters to create a goddess of destruction (i.e. your Koni). Maybe even we find out that Koni is a newborn slaad lord.
This flood killed a LOT of the culture of these fire “benders”. Thus, this human fire bending culture can then be found on both sides of this collapse (so in Lopango AND the western pridelands).
I know you have the jungle orcs as sorcerers. That has never sit well with me, but it can somewhat make sense if they're born with it. They just don't make good sorcerers without a good charisma. You also have these jungle orcs as coming from Katashaka somewhere. I propose that they ALSO came from the western pridelands, and they are some of what became of what was left of the human population of fire “benders” long ago. We see humans being turned into orcs in Maztica with Zaltec turning them into orcs, ogres, Jagres, and trolls in canon. Perhaps Virachoa and Intiri punished some of the humans and Stone-Clad Giant Kings in a similar way. Perhaps it was caused when the blood of Azul mixed with the flood waters, and anyone swimming in it was changed. Having these orcs being “elemental fighters” like “benders”/Lacers harnesses their natural anger and they could use this with their tendency towards strength. Thus, perhaps a lot of their “sorcerers” are “benders”/Lacers that combine physical attacks with elementalism. Others might be warlocks as well with fiendish pacts, as another means to have them having access to raw power and also fitting some trends we see people doing such that these jungle orc cultures can be something that players may tie into character concepts. There might be several different “demonic” entities that guide different “tribes” of these jungle orcs, but my initial thoughts are that they turn to what became of the batrachi. They start to follow the Slaad Lords: Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer. Ygorl the Lord of Entropy, and even Ssendam the Lord of Madness. Perhaps Tezca punished their culture for turning to the worship of fiends instead of himself (better to sacrifice them than lose them to demons). These jungle orcs are chased OUT of Katashaka by the various cat folk (and other “beast folk” inhabitants of northern Katashaka), and they cross the water to Lopango to follow the history that you have written up.
This collapsed link between Lopango and the Western Pridelands of Katashaka should be a relatively shallow section of ocean. By that, I mean that if you go diving, perhaps there's numerous lost cities beneath the waves. I won't go off topic too far with that though, other than to say I'd like to put tauric octopus folk there and that possibly it was Azul or Virachoa that turned these humans into octopus folk in an attempt to save them. Perhaps these octopus folk become “water lacers”.
In my homebrew, I would have it that the mulan red wizards and their rashemi and metahel allies came to Lopango because they were looking for the rumored secrets that has Lopango gaining the nickname “the Land of Fire” (by Rashemi, I mean former citizens of Thay with Rashemi blood.... so former Thayan but not Mulan, which is more of what Thay is than not). They bring a small group of gnolls and also some humans of Azuposi, Natican, Kolan, and Maztican descent along the way are gathered to serve as a serving class. They discover the remains of these “fire lacer” people and even some survivors. These people have forsaken the “earth magic” arts of the Stone-Clad Giant Kings as thought to be “evil” in the eyes of the gods. They also turned from the worship of Intiri and to the worship of Tezca (the Maztican god of fire), because they blamed Intiri for their culture's demise (some of the people from this culture had chosen to follow Intiri, but they were in the northern mountains and eventually helped form the Natican people). Perhaps like in the city of gold module, there's old cities that even these people warn “are not to be entered”. Of course the red wizards are asshats and decide that's where they need to go (because they “know better” and are “more enlightened than these primitives”... arrogant bastards that they are). These cities are perhaps ancient batrachi cities that the Stone-Clad Giant Kings had also come to live in with their human slaves. Fiend idols should exist in these cities, but the red wizards cast these down or close them up (they aren't against fiend worship, its just not a priority versus study of the arcane). Building materials, including fiend possessed gold, from some of these temples might be put to other purposes (and spawn other issues unintentionally). The red wizards delve this new study of fire “magic” blended with combat, which continues to work absolutely fine when they go to Abeir. They also come to discover lost knowledge of earth “lacing” as well from the lost cities of the Stone-Clad Giant Kings. These red wizards use the similarities of this “magic” and study of the weave arts to learn how to "adapt" wizardry faster.
In an odd twist for the racist mulan people, the red wizards of Lopango soon start breeding with every available human female they can (and some non-human, including some of the less horrible jungle orcs and jungle drow that are recovered) while in Abeir. Within a generation, a schism forms between the purists and those who want to remain pure. Oddly, the metahel and rashemi also have a mirrored conflict in their own culture, with some of them “going native” and others wanting to remain pure (the metahel and rashemi though don't mind mating within their two groups). This schism grows, and eventually a faction of the red wizards/rashemi/metahel migrate to the western pridelands of Katashaka to not only study the ancient ruins there, but also be able to get back to their racial roots (let's say 30% of the population for a rough idea). Perhaps in the Western Pridelands they uncover some of these unchanged humans who, after the floods, embraced Koni and started studying “water and air lacing” as it relates to storms and rain.
Gonna take a break, and be back to put forth my ideas in two other areas. Would love some feedback. I know a lot of this is still “fluid” in my brain, and I'm literally coming up with some of it as I'm typing, so let's see where it goes. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2020 : 16:22:53
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Oh, and real quick, regarding my own homebrew... the mulan, rashemi, and metahel peoples that go on to found the western pridelands are studying all four elements as a result (air, earth, fire, water). Also, over about two generations, their idea of "racial purity" has slipped, such that its more acceptable for mulan to breed with rashemi and metahel. This is because they consider all of these cultures "civilized and intelligent" (because again, they're arrogant). However, in a twist from usual magocracies, this "tharch" has embraced "lacing" more than wizardry. In effect, this society has more people who want to embrace physical combat with elementalism or magic (so eldritch knights and arcane tricksters would also be common, and perhaps things like hexblades who have Koni, goddess of destruction, as a patron). They're still led by a council of mages, because they haven't given up the idea that those more intelligent should lead. They've just come to accept that in a rough and tumble world, someone needs to pick up a weapon and deal with enemies. Also, in this society, something like the Rashemi warriors protecting their wychlaran has come into effect, such that all wizards have protectors, but usually one of said protectors is also a skilled lacer (most wizards have two assigned protectors at least). Owing to their metahel sensibilities, the ideas of honor and such are big in this culture as well.
Of all my tharchs, the western pridelands is one of the most intermixed (in that its also accepted most of the beastfolk humanoids/taurics from the surrounding lands into their cities, because accepting people is easier than trying to fight them all off). Its also one of the more militant (in the viewpoint of the best defense is to be prepared and defensive and ready to give a punch back for a slight). They aren't aggressive, just wanting to maintain what they have. Part of this is because two generations after they founded THEIR tharch, half their citizens left to go found another new tharch (New Eltabbar on the mid-eastern side of Katashaka) by aiding some catfolk to betray some other catfolk who thought they were untouchable. The ones that left were mostly mulan, leaving behind a smaller amount of mulan blooded people and a higher proportion of Metahel and Rashemi (which also speaks to why the mulan started seeing no problem with breeding with their neighbors). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2020 : 18:34:24
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There are two known "element" groupings in the RW ancient literature.
The first, attested to in Babylonian, Greek, Persian, and Indian sources (and through the latter into Buddhism and then eastward as far as Japan), is the familiar four Air, Earth, Fire, Water, plus sometimes a postulated fifth (aether/quintessence/void) that is quite different than the other four.
The second is the Chinese wuxing, which aren't really elements (in the sense of substances that combine to make up matter), but a Taoist concept closer to "energies". The wuxing are Earth, Fire, Metal, Water, and Wood. The Dagara (in west Africa) are at least alleged to have a five element system of Earth, Fire, Mineral, Water, and Nature, which has a fairly obvious parallel to the wuxing.
Whether there was really an aboriginal North American equivalent is not known, but much of the currently-extant lore about the "Medicine Wheel" links the four colors to the familiar four elements. The supposedly-Inca "Chakana" is also linked to them, too.
FR-wise, the planar cosmology/summonable elementals/genies/gensai/elemental lord religions match the familiar quad, and that same quad was the basis of 2e "elementalist" schools, 2e Zakharan arcane magic (the names of the Flame, Sand, Sea, and Wind spell provinces were explicitly linked to Fire, Earth, Water, and Air), and 80% of the 1e Kara-Tur wu jen magic system (the classic four plus Wood).
Something interesting might be an "energies" model. The five damage types of chromatic dragon breath weapons? Ten, based on the thirteen 5e damage types minus bludgeoning/piercing/slashing? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2020 : 19:23:52
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On the other two regions (three actually), two are separated but similar, in that I'd like two "Polynesian" groups that have extensively studied water elementalism and possibly air elementalism. I kind of spoke about them in another thread a month or two back. They're kind of undeveloped. One is that huge collection of islands to the west of Zakhara that has no development, and we got into some discussions of giant turtles in the region and the realm of tides mentioned in the blood and magic game. I picture these guys as going from island to island by ship, living on their ships, etc... From a what they look like view, they'd be similar to the ideas we have for pirates (puffy pants, vests, head scarves, jewelry) and have a lot of animal pets that work with ship travel.
The other I picture off the northeastern coast of what we call Osse and I picture these as island dwellers who don't move a lot, farm their specific islands, and fish their surrounding territory. They would be a relatively simple folk with not many predators who keep to themselves for the most part. Their lives are fairly primitive, but since they're not in serious danger often (strange for such a dangerous world, but their isolation helps) it works for them.
The last would be something I've spoken about before as well, being the "Wakanari Highlands of Katashaka". This is a place of a lot of intermixed races, none of them human. Its a bunch of elevated escarpments that protect its people from the surrounding "Lowlands" that is also on the western coast. Floating above this country are what some might call "earthmotes". There are some who believe that these are earth islands that came here FROM Coliar and brought with them many bird folk. Some think the Aearee created them. Some think both theories are true. Some think the "earthmotes" are transfers from Abeir that happened long ago. Its inhabitants are various bird folk [peacockra (peafowl aarakocra), pa'ratxi (parrot aarakocra), tucati (toucan aarakocra), kocratuura (cockatoo aarakocra), ibideans (ibis aarakocra), and others such as a seagoing pelican aarakocra], plus cat folk (tabaxi, tigrans (what people would have called rakasta in other games), and lenastans (new name could be leonin)), plus a tiny mousefolk and a flower folk. Also in this society are numerous "winged cat" beings, from tressym, to winged great cats, to griffons. Then at the top are the sphinxes who rule UNDER the "primordial"/"great spirit" like beings who are the members of the Council of the Reborn Phoenix (a bunch of individual creatures such as a eagle like phoenix, a peacock like phoenix, a great lion with wings of fire named Nobannu, etc...). The place has some copies of some ancient aearee magic that involves the modification of beings for flight, and its a great honor for the cat folk to be granted wings by the council. This society consists focuses on the study of air and fire magics (amongst the bird folk), air, earth and fire lacing (amongst the cat folk), and earth and water (amongst the Watili flower folk). Some might break these lines (such as pelican aarakocra that study water lacing, etc...). Flying ships similar to those used by Halruaa would be somewhat common (so ships that can't maneuver well, are dependent on the winds, etc.... not something like a spelljammer), but much smaller in size (so more like a large sailboat or yacht as for 5 to 10 people as opposed to a pirate ship). Dirigible balloons as well for 2 or 3 passengers would also be fairly common with "fire lacers" keeping the air hot in the balloon. Both of these using lots of rubber from the surrounding jungle along with cloth. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Sep 2020 19:36:38 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2020 : 19:55:04
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Oh, and not really elementalism... but an odd thing about the Wakanari highland in which bird folk live alongside cat folk who live alongside mouse folk who live alongside flower folk... they don't believe in the concept of burials. The flower folk understand that they grow fruit with their bodies, and they understand that the bird and mouse folk will want to eat it. They understand that in doing so, their seeds will be planted so that new Watili will grow. The mousefolk know that the bird and cat folk will want to eat their bodies when they die, but in return they are protected and live a longer life than they would in the wild. The bird and cat folk expect to eat the bodies of each other. Irrigation and use of their own "self-made" fertilizer becomes important to them, so that they can enrich the land and make it strong. They believe that their spirits are returned to the land, unless they live a particularly good life, at which point the gods will take them into the sky. Otherwise they are reborn into a new life according to their deeds (a particularly poor life might result in being born as a simple animal, whereas a good life might ascend them to being born a sphinx to lead their people with their wisdom).
It occurs to me right now as I write this then, that the idea of shamanism would fit this culture well, but also the idea of the incarnum totemist who "draws upon the spirits" of certain creatures to enhance themselves would fit in well with this culture (as a variant of pluma and hishna type magics as well). Thus, in this culture "spirit" might be seen as a 5th element. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Sep 2020 19:59:21 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2020 : 22:21:46
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One idea I had a while back was that when a tribal elder died, they were taken to a special grove and buried there, with a tree planted atop them.
Shamans are able to go to that grove to confer with the fallen elders -- their spirits linger there to provide guidance to the tribe.
(The downside is that this ties the tribe to one spot, unless they have multiple groves scattered around, and maybe take trimmings or seeds from one grove to plant in others, tying them all together)
On the topic of non-standard elements, I've seen metal classified as a separate element, as well. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2020 : 00:15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One idea I had a while back was that when a tribal elder died, they were taken to a special grove and buried there, with a tree planted atop them.
Shamans are able to go to that grove to confer with the fallen elders -- their spirits linger there to provide guidance to the tribe.
(The downside is that this ties the tribe to one spot, unless they have multiple groves scattered around, and maybe take trimmings or seeds from one grove to plant in others, tying them all together)
On the topic of non-standard elements, I've seen metal classified as a separate element, as well.
Hmm, thanks Wooly. Given that the culture I'm talking about has mobile flower folk, this idea has some merit. Not sure how to implement exactly, but worth thinking about. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 06:30:42
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Senior Scribe keftiu,
You're close, but not quite there. Greek discussion of elementals and what not goes back to Empedocles, in roughly 450 BCE. That certainly is old. However, there is a very interesting tie to the Forgotten Realms in elementals, that I don't think many take note of: Unther and Babylon.
Ancient creation myths found from the Enuma Elis discuss Marduk in the Akkadian Cuniform discovered on tablets one through seven. Marduk as you may recall was an ancient deity of Mesopotamia, and was believed to have been fighting for ultimate power. It was believed at the time that the four gods discussed in addition to Marduk were really the four elements, but it wasn't really until between 1200 to 1400 years later that Empedocles would really delve down into it and focus more on the four elements.
Whereas the Babylonians were focused on seeing what they felt were four deities of the substances of the world, Empedocles discussed the four elements through the lens of cosmogony. So, more science for Empedocles, and more religion for the Babylonians.
The cool link to the Realms for the four elements though, as I mentioned, is Marduk, of ancient Babylonian myth, which by the way, is one of the ancient deities of Unther, which of course was based on Babylon! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 09:17:33
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The Realms are part of a D&D cosmos which has elemental Inner Planes. The four classic elements plus positive and negative and all the interfaced mixed places between.
So the elemental nature of Realms magics and perceptions must align with these cardinal categories.
Eastern philosophies structured around (five) different elements would require some counterintuitive philosophical sophistications.
Or they'd require connections with a different subset of elemental planes. The Outer Planes can be structured into different metaphors (and repurposed with different intrinsic properties) when modelling the D&D cosmos - the Great Wheel, the Cosmic Tree, the Astral Sea, etc - so maybe the Inner Planes can likewise manifest through different paradigms? |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 12:49:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Realms are part of a D&D cosmos which has elemental Inner Planes. The four classic elements plus positive and negative and all the interfaced mixed places between.
So the elemental nature of Realms magics and perceptions must align with these cardinal categories.
Eastern philosophies structured around (five) different elements would require some counterintuitive philosophical sophistications.
Or they'd require connections with a different subset of elemental planes. The Outer Planes can be structured into different metaphors (and repurposed with different intrinsic properties) when modelling the D&D cosmos - the Great Wheel, the Cosmic Tree, the Astral Sea, etc - so maybe the Inner Planes can likewise manifest through different paradigms?
That is a damn good point. Given how the planes are discovered and believed to be related could have a strong tie-in to this belief. If you permit me some leeway, I'd like to try and expound on that idea, and then maybe you can add to it/correct me/improve it. Its based upon an idea that BadCatMan lodged in my brain.
Along those lines, Kara-Tur is one of the few places wherein (at least in 3.5e) their planar alignments were "different". The below is from "the Player's Guide to Faerun"
THE SPIRIT WORLD
The Spirit World described in the Appendix in Manual of the Planes is coexistent with and coterminous to the Material Plane, but only in Kara-Tur. Each deity of Kara-Tur’s Celestial Bureaucracy has a small realm attached to the Spirit World. Because it is a transitive plane, the Spirit World replaces the Astral Plane in Kara-Tur.
I propose that THIS specialness isn't just to Kara-Tur, but also to Anchorome as well (a sidepoint mind you). However, it points out that Kara-Tur has the spirit world "overlaid" on top of the "real" world. What BadCatMan proposed was that some people who "had the sight" could see in the real world and the spirit world at the same time (not all that strange, kind of like a person who is on the border ethereal can see the prime). Thus, when they look up in the sky, they SEE dragons flying around that other people don't see. They SEE the Celestial Bureaucracy floating above their country in the sky. Also, they see their ancestor's spirits, because presumably if their gods aren't in some outer plane, then their dead are where their gods are.
Given this concept, I know that one of the fifth elements in asian cultures is usually wood, but what little I've seen of discussions on it is that they believe wood to be that which comprises "flesh" of any living thing. So, they saw that my muscle and the limbs of a tree were just two variants of "wood". Both needed "water" and "air" to live, and once dried out, both fuel fire. I can see how they MIGHT equate this "wood" to being "something that possesses a spirit". Given that the "spirit world" is so "close", just like the planes of earth, fire, and water, I can see why they might develop this idea.
Now, why they don't have an air element but have a "metal" element. That becomes a harder thing to explain to me. However, maybe the elemental plane of air is somehow harder to reach in Kara-Tur, or maybe they just consider it part of spirit (something that all living things must breathe)? After all, you CAN find air elementals in the spirit plane (though you can find most other elementals too). Maybe they can more easily access the plane of magma from there, and in it finding metal become easier?
This does kind of also make me think a little bit about genies and kara-tur though. In theory, no part of the world should be "cut off" to genies. However, kara-tur most obviously has dragons and little to no contact with genie kind. In some ways, one might be able to equate "genie kind" to primordials, and dragons are noted as the servants of primordials in the lore. If one wanted to, you really could develop this into something with some work, wherein the dragon spirits of Kara-Tur and the Genies of Zakhara are literally at odds somehow, and perhaps this relates all the way back to the first sundering. Perhaps the idea that I've put forward in the past that Zakhara is another transfer from Abeir that happened at some point could be true. Perhaps similarly, the appearance of Calim and Memnon and the peoples in what becomes Calimshan long ago also came from Abeir (possibly with links to Zakhara ON Abeir as well). Perhaps the reason the Lung dragons of Kara-Tur are "different" has ties into this as well. This whole thing could be a much bigger story that we haven't hit upon putting together.
Perhaps too, the Elven Sundering did something to Faerun which made IT more magical than the surrounding areas... linking Faerun more closely with Faerie/Feywild and LESS close to the spirit world.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 14:03:18
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Eastern counterparts to hierophant druids would differ quite profoundly if their fundamental connection with the elemental planes is made through this "Spirit World". Especially considering the mutually holostic interactions of five "chi" elements vs the destructively oppositional nature of four "classic" elements.
The Astral has been described as something like a "backstage" part of the universe. Thought to perhaps be a sort of scaffolding leftover from the construction of the cosmos. Never actually intended to be discovered or seen or visited (or inhabited). It also serves as the catch-all recycling bin for "dead" powers, since they're indestructible and immortal yet they can't continue to exist anywhere else.
Suggesting that the Astral could be filtered and shaped by philosophy and belief - and that it would thus manifest as a distinct facet of some greater "place" (like the Outer Planes) - is a fascinating idea. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 16:03:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Eastern counterparts to hierophant druids would differ quite profoundly if their fundamental connection with the elemental planes is made through this "Spirit World". Especially considering the mutually holostic interactions of five "chi" elements vs the destructively oppositional nature of four "classic" elements.
The Astral has been described as something like a "backstage" part of the universe. Thought to perhaps be a sort of scaffolding leftover from the construction of the cosmos. Never actually intended to be discovered or seen or visited (or inhabited). It also serves as the catch-all recycling bin for "dead" powers, since they're indestructible and immortal yet they can't continue to exist anywhere else.
Suggesting that the Astral could be filtered and shaped by philosophy and belief - and that it would thus manifest as a distinct facet of some greater "place" (like the Outer Planes) - is a fascinating idea.
Hmmm, what you said there just hit me... yeah, your right, the 4 element model IS distinctly different because its oppositional (i.e. fire and water at odds, earth and air at odds) versus the "cycle of life" idea behind the five elements.... which fits the whole spirit world to a degree if the spirits eventually get reborn... which has a whole avatar the last airbender feel even though said series used the classic 4 elements.
Kind of ironic "last airbender".... they're missing air in the 5 cycles...in the series though they discover metalbending, and one could say "plant bending" was on the rise with waterbenders known as "swampbenders".... almost like the avatar series was transitioning from the 4 element model into a 5 element model. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 22:47:21
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Great Reader's sleyvas and Ayrik,
Great points all around. I think this distinctly hits at the notion of different societies, religions, ethics, etc. based on the culture of 'x'. It does make one question how druids would function in Wa or Shou Lung, when compared to druids lets say in Cormyr or Tethyr?
That is such a cool thing to consider!
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Elementalists in Non European Analogues
