| Author |
 Topic  |
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Oct 2016 : 03:58:01
|
Noting that the 3E FRCS has Chessentan as a totally different language to Untheric, and the fact that Chessenta was a part of the Untheric Empire until only a few centuries ago, do people think that it would be a wholly different language or just have small differences (certain word changes, grammar constructs, etc.)? Just wondering ...
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2016 : 09:15:54
|
Im intrigued by your interest because its a long way from your sandbox.
Im away from my books and works almost permanently now so i cant look up what tom costas dragon article and his later errata say about chessentan (and then compare it to other sources to try and reconcile the differences, usually by having two languages). I also wont be doing any more FR work myself for at least a year 
However i did do a lot of research on the old empires a few years back (which you have no doubt done as well) so here is what i think from my memory.
The original inhabitants of Chessenta were Turami humans and other races (including elves and halflings).
The Untheric people settled here (although i have a third empire here known as Akanic, who were written out of history by Gilgeam). They pushed the Turami people into the eastern edges of Jhaamdath (and kept going starting a war with Jhaamdath many times).
Unther starts to weaken and withdraw internally thanks to the orcgate wars. Chessenta begins its road to independence here. It moves towards becoming a distant vassal, then nominally rules by unther, then disgruntled vassal, then open rebellion.
Jhaamdath falls and the people of eastern jhaamdath that are mostly of turami origin return to their ancestral homelands.
From this point on the chessentan language is a mix of untheric and the language of jhaamdath (that is now completely extinct but has evolved into modern common) mixed with turami.
Later around 700 DR there is an influx of traders from the region that would be Amn. They bring their language and wealth and spark the war of independence for Chessenta.
Now at this point we have where modern Chessentan begins. It is untheric parent mixed with Jhaam, Calishite/Tethyrian, and a bit of Turami.
There are two ways this could go. Either the parent language remains strongest and keeps the sentence structure and grammar of untheric while adding new words from jhaam and calishite. Or it does what happened in england and you get a completely new hybrid language which takes celtic sentence structure, latin alphabet, and words that are a mix of both.
With melting pot cultures i tend to go with the latter. Modern common is the first melting pot language of the realms. Chessentan could be a potential successor that mixes modern common with the old empire languages.
Just my thoughts and ramblings, im sure you can come up with something much better (and apologies if i got the order of events wrong, its been a while since i looked at the old empires) |
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
 |
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2016 : 09:18:14
|
I must admit to not having the full timeline of the Realms in my head, but I think you can go both ways here, depending on how you want to spin it.
Personally, I'd be inclined to say that if it's really marked as a separate language, "small differences" could well be sufficient to justify such a distinction - close to seven centuries of separation, with limited crossover between the two branches can completely separate languages; there are real-life examples, such as Latin splitting into Spanish, Italian, French, etc.
Another option could be that, despite having been part of the Untheric empire for millennia, the region now known as Chessenta already had a population when the Untheric pantheon marched in, and that population had its own language, which it maintained even as Untheric was used a the "official" language, for administration, etc. Being part of a single empire does not necessarily imply having a single language (again, plenty of real-world examples). In that case, after Unther was given its marching papers, the Chessentans upgraded their "common" tongue to the level of official language of Chessenta. |
|
|
|
BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2016 : 10:12:08
|
In Tom Costa's "Speaking in Tongues" article, Chessentan and other Chessentic languages hail from the old Chessan languages group. It's a separate language to Untheric, but heavily influenced by it.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Chessentan_language |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2016 : 17:19:54
|
| Probably they're quite different, otherwise Chessenta would have at least some NPC's with Mesopotamian names, but I don't remember anyone. Chessentan could have some words from Untheric, for example in our world Greeks got the name for magic from Persia. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2016 : 21:40:53
|
My answer would be based entirely on some of my own homebrew, developed to 'fix' (fudge) some of the stuff mentioned in one of the 'god books'.
There was a pre-Mulan group of people abducted by the Imaskari - the Dathites. Possibly pre-Hellenic (Minoan?) in origin, and much more war-like than the later abductees (and now that I've just used that term, I am picturing 'UFO abductees' are really people getting grabbed by Imaskari  ). This group is mentioned in the God book - I forget which one, and I went looking for it and can't find it - it had to do with the waves of (mortal) 'interlopers' that entered Realmspace. I've combined that one, throw-away mention with the Chessentan/Chondath cultural similarities to ancient Greece/Rome, and came up with my 'Dathite' lore.
Those people were a 'test' for the Imaskari, and it didn't work out so good. They didn't make very good slaves. They were very independent, and strong in will as well as body. There was a minor rebellion of sorts - truthfully, the Imaskari were 'done with them' and were glad to be rid of them. These people fled west into the area that would later be Chessenta, displacing the existing Turami peoples. Then the Imaskari re-tried their plan, this time being much more picky about which groups they chose (mostly groups of peasants that were used to having 'overlords' ruling them), and thats when the bulk of the Mulan people were grabbed and brought-over to Toril. As Imaskar expanded west into Unther with its new slaves, the Dathites were pushed further west as things went on.
These Dathites, over time, bred with 'the locals' - indigenous Turami and some adventurous Tethans from even further west. They also bred with whatever Mulan slaves were able to flee from Mulhorand and Unther. Thus, the new group that emerged are the Chondathans, a group mostly descended from an aggressive Mediterranean people, but also with enough other blood to now be considered fully 'Torillian'.
So Chessentan may have originated as a 'pidgin' of Untheric and Dathite, with perhaps Chondathan being closer to its Dathite roots.
If you don't care for my inclusion of this non-canon group (although it is based upon that one piece of lore, as I said), then you could simply say that Chessenta is a pidgin of the original (indigenous) Turami tongue and Untheric. However you spin it, I definitely see it as a hybrid language created (at first) by run-away slaves and other oppressed people brought together out of need (survival).
We are also talking about thousands of years here, so whatever language it started out as, it would be VERY different by now, regardless.
BTW, its really funny you posted this, since I was just working on the coast of Chessenta. I'll have to send you what I have so far (because of my long-range plans, I have to incorporate every 'border area' into the master map, even if it doesn't appear on anything I do for years). I'm finding oddities between maps I hadn't even noticed before, like the fact that the Fonstad maps are 1.6° different than the 1e/2e maps. Now I know why I've had so much trouble getting various maps to meet correctly over the years. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 24 Oct 2016 21:44:02 |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 00:23:54
|
Thanks for all the responses. I like the idea of the Chessentans being a Turami under-class that never went "west" and the differences between the Turmic and Chessentan tongues can be explained by their parting of ways millenia prior. I haven't been able to find the Dathite lore you talk about Markus (nothing in Powers and Pantheons or Volo's Guide to All Things Magical) so would love if you could dig up this reference.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 02:14:30
|
I'm sure someone will be along shortly to point me in the right direction - I've brought up that piece of lore several times, never remember precisely where I read it, and then someone points me to it. Probably BadCatMan or Quale (maybe Gray Richardson, but I never see him around anymore). Maybe Eric, if he reads this, since I'm 99% sure he wrote it.
It was in one of those 'sweeping history' paragraphs in one of the 2e books, that talked abut all the waves of humans that came to Toril over the years. If no-one comes forward with it, I'll re-check sources - I didn't put a whole lot of effort into it the last time (just looked in the one spot I expected it to be, which is ALWAYS the same wrong spot I check LOL).
And yeah, everyone forgets about the Turami. Poor Turami... so important (because they ARE indigenous to Toril), and yet oft-overlooked.
EDIT: Just checked a bunch of sources, and I KNOW I've looked for this before, and can never find it (myself). That means its NOT in a source I would think it would be in (like the 'god books' that I erroneously pointed to above). It has to be someplace least-expected. It was just a small paragraph describing the waves of human emigrants who came to Toril. There was one that was described as olive-skinned (IIRC) and came from 'citystates', and I believe it predated the Middle-eastern peoples we normally associate with the Mulan (who are also mentioned therein). Now its driving me nuts. 
EDIT2: I'm checking Races of Faerūn right now (I always seem to forget about that source, which is why it would be the perfect place for something like this to hide). Although i haven't found it (yet), i did come across this, which has to do with our current theory about Chessentan culture & language:
"In fact, in some regions of Faerūn, melting pot cultures founded by two or more distinct ethnic groups, none of them dominant, are establishing distinct cultural and linguistic identities that mark the emergence of newly distinct ethnic identities different from their forbears." - RoF, 1st sentence on pg.81 |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2016 17:49:41 |
|
|
|
BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 07:13:44
|
I think these Dathites are some of your homebrew, Markustay. :)
What we do know is that Jhaamdath was founded by a psionic warrior named Jhaam of the Dath Dynasty (i.e., Jhaam Dath) around #8722;5800 DR.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Jhaam
This is in Races of Faerun, Empires of the Shining Sea, Lost Empires of Faerun, and The Grand History of the Realms. We don't know anything about "Dath" than that.
I think you probably gave the name "Dathite" to the humans of Jhaam's and the other tribes in the area, back in our talks on the old WotC boards.
Linguistically, these Dathites/proto-Jhaamdathans spoke an ancient Thorass language, not a Chessan language. Interestingly, wiki editor Lhynard determined the Jhaamdathan language is based on Jotun, the giant language.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Jhaamdathan_language
But despite influences and branching, the Chessan languages are independent as far back as history (well, Tom Costa) records. Auld Chessic's alternative name "Alambic" suggests it was originally spoken around the Alamber sea.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Auld_Chessic
So the ancient Chessentans probably dwelled around the Alamber Sea.
Actually, Powers & Pantheons page 2 says that transpheric migration brought several lots of humans from other worlds into the Realms (and not all by the Imaskari), with their own gods and cultures. One lot came from "a patchwork of city-states and bold philosophies", which has to be ancient Greece (and not necessarily enslaved by Imaskari). This would explain the presence of gods like Tyche, Poseidon, and Dionysus:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Poseidon
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Saint_Dionysus
So the early Chessentans could well be ancient Greeks, and proto-Chessentan would be ancient Greek (as the names, fashion, and words suggest). They would have appeared, somehow, settled around the Alamber Sea, then moved west, following the Turami, when pushed by the Mulan. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
Edited by - BadCatMan on 25 Oct 2016 07:16:22 |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 12:46:25
|
Thanks to Markus for the p.2 P&P reference that I missed whichaccounts for the Chessentans. Of course, how and why they came to Toril is a mystery.
Another reason why I'm not a fan of the RW impacting upon the Realms. Tyche appears to be "their" deity in the Realms. So why would a bunch of Tyche worshippers move from Earth to the Realms? And how? Vexing questions. Which I'm not even going to try and answer as I dislike dealing with gods in such a manner. I'll move on now while playing with the notion that some Ancient Greeks travelled to Toril and merged/intermingled with the native Turami to create a distinct culture/language.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 12:54:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thanks to Markus for the p.2 P&P reference that I missed whichaccounts for the Chessentans. Of course, how and why they came to Toril is a mystery.
Another reason why I'm not a fan of the RW impacting upon the Realms. Tyche appears to be "their" deity in the Realms. So why would a bunch of Tyche worshippers move from Earth to the Realms? And how? Vexing questions. Which I'm not even going to try and answer as I dislike dealing with gods in such a manner. I'll move on now while playing with the notion that some Ancient Greeks travelled to Toril and merged/intermingled with the native Turami to create a distinct culture/language.
-- George Krashos
The Antikythera mechanism also showed planar conjunctions. A group of Tyche-worshippers figured this out, and decided to take one of the grandest chances of all: stepping through a portal to an unknown world.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 13:57:23
|
Just wondering, is the below the reference you're talking about? Yes, it would seem to indicate humans from Egypt, Greece, Rome, and maybe Northmen(the dozen-king greater god reference sounds weird to my ear). Of course, it could also just as easily be humans coming here from Mystara as well from the empire of Thyatis, especially if there's some kind of time leap with the transfer instead of just a world transfer. Given that we have some references, such as Felidae the cat goddess (aka Calitha Starbrow who was an elven sea deity as well... who is also tied to time... a very odd mixture, btw), that seem to have ties to Mystara, it may very well be a possibility. There's also the Northern Reaches which could be where the Northmen (and possibly the worship of Tyr and Helm/Heimdall) came from. Given that this also states that "humanlike winged races" also came through, one might also assume that the Avariels of Faerun and the Ee'aar of Mystara have common background. The humans who worshipped the strange Yuir deities may have been worshipping some transferred Mystaran immortals... and the idea of "manifestations" of deities may actually just be "immortals" in D&D terms. A lot of interaction between Mystara and Toril would make sense IF you throw in some kind of nebulous time magic that goes with the transfer so that you don't have to match dates.
From Powers and Pantheons page 2
Pegasi and humanlike winged races entered the Realms in numbers, and then several human migrations brought mature socieites and religious faiths to the Realms, an influx from a land of desert goverened by the seasonal pulse of a mighty river; then an influx from two neighboring lands - one a land of glory and empire, the other a patchwork of city-states and bold philosophies - whose pantheons reflected, but did not precisely duplicate each other; followed by folk from a more rugged land tied to nature, the sea, and the warrior history of its dozen-king greater god. At about this point, what would become Netheril began to rise, spurred by humans who learned magic from the elves, only to swiftly outstrip their teachers in magical experimentation and innovation. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 16:33:24
|
Yes that's the one I'm talking about.
There's also Chronos, the time god found in the Vast Swamp in Four From Cormyr, who may have had Greek connections. Of course, I'm only supposing that all the Greek pantheon gods are associated with the ancients Chessentans for tidiness's sake, but it's just as possible they're unrelated.
The "dozen-king greater god" is likely Dagda, the "dozen king" of the Celtic pantheon, from Irish mythology, so the other land is likely Ireland.
It seems the Imaskari only took the Egyptians and Babylonian/Sumerians, so the Greeks and Irish remain unaccounted for. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 18:00:55
|
Yes, I named them, but I knew there was a reference somewhere I based all of that on. Very little of my homebrew is pure conjecture - most of it is based off of little bits of lore sprinkled all over the place.
Thanks for finding that guys - my memory isn't what is used to be, but I still know the difference between something I'm sure I read, and something that 'sounds familiar'. 
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
I think these Dathites are some of your homebrew, Markustay. :)
Which is what I said...
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My answer would be based entirely on some of my own homebrew, developed to 'fix' (fudge) some of the stuff mentioned in one of the 'god books'... <snip>
Now, the name itself ('Dathite') is also meta-gaming, and for our benefit. Its an easy-to-remember moniker for a proto-Chondathan (possibly Terran) group of 'early people'. It doesn't necessarily mean I think Faerūnians would use it, in much the same way we have groups like 'The Clovis People' who obviously never called themselves that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 18:14:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thanks to Markus for the p.2 P&P reference that I missed whichaccounts for the Chessentans. Of course, how and why they came to Toril is a mystery.
Another reason why I'm not a fan of the RW impacting upon the Realms. Tyche appears to be "their" deity in the Realms. So why would a bunch of Tyche worshippers move from Earth to the Realms? And how? Vexing questions. Which I'm not even going to try and answer as I dislike dealing with gods in such a manner. I'll move on now while playing with the notion that some Ancient Greeks travelled to Toril and merged/intermingled with the native Turami to create a distinct culture/language.
-- George Krashos
No problem . Just so long as you don't think I'm 'just making stuff up'. Nearly every theory I have concerning FR is based on something (even if its something extremely obscure).
I don't mind the Earth cross-pollination in FR, mainly because the setting is built on that premise. In any other fantasy setting, I'd find it jarring (unless it shared a similar premise, like Narnia).
The 'Tyche thing' is a bit of conundrum for my theory, since the ancient Greeks shouldn't have existed until later in history (unless you proscribe to the 'time runs differently' MacGuffin, which I personally dislike). Of course, that's easy to fix just by using the settings basic premise once again (and beating an old FR trope to death just a wee bit more): An ancient, malfunctioning gate. One that 'turns on' randomly over the course of centuries, and that we could pin on experimenting Imaskari, that's also in the right region to be responsible for the theoretical Dathites. In Metos*, perhaps? It was a 'top secret government base' for the Imaskari, kind of like modern-day Area-51. and it also only accessible by portals - seems like a good locale to place our hypothetical 'Dathite gate' in (and would also help explain why the Imaskari abandoned this site). Then we just allow that there is periodic influxes of Hellenic peoples over time, which accounts for why we still see aspects of that culture, thousands of years later.
And someone had to bring the olives.
*pg.65, Lost Empires of Faerūn |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2016 18:35:29 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2016 : 02:04:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Yes that's the one I'm talking about.
There's also Chronos, the time god found in the Vast Swamp in Four From Cormyr, who may have had Greek connections. Of course, I'm only supposing that all the Greek pantheon gods are associated with the ancients Chessentans for tidiness's sake, but it's just as possible they're unrelated.
The "dozen-king greater god" is likely Dagda, the "dozen king" of the Celtic pantheon, from Irish mythology, so the other land is likely Ireland.
It seems the Imaskari only took the Egyptians and Babylonian/Sumerians, so the Greeks and Irish remain unaccounted for.
Ah, gotcha, so that nature/sea/dozen king would explain Oghma and Silvanus and possibly Goibniu if that is in fact Gond. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2016 : 08:22:06
|
And the Vikings (Northmen) and Tyr found their way on their own as well.
Irish/Celtic could have used the same Gate as the Northmen somewhere in the British Isles (maybe an island? Maybe there's a crossing-over point in FR, via the Feywild, or some such?) And its 'far end' connection could easily be in its FR counterpart - The Moonshaes, which would make it right for both cultures (I can picture Avalon and other 'disappearing islands' fading in-and-out of both worlds).
I'm still favoring my idea that the Greeks were a 'prototype' for the later Mulan, but whatever, Its all good. We got Tyche, Dionysius, and Chronos from somewhere, and that 'Thraxus'(sp?) guy sounds awfully 'Roman' as well. Speaking of Chronos, looking at all that in hindsight, and with the 4e lore, it might just be easier to relegate him to having been a primordial (Titan). Considering the area, perhaps he was even one of the 'Seven Lost Gods' (who should ALL probably be primordials, at this point).
'Chronos of the Temporal River' has a nice ring to it, and it would make sense if there were Elder Time Elementals (Primordials). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 26 Oct 2016 08:25:02 |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2016 : 09:42:27
|
| Didn't the Elves in the Lost Kingdom of Orva(The swamp in eastern Cormyr) worship a version of Chronos? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2016 : 09:51:20
|
Yes, Chronos/Kronus was worshipped in Orva, but the people there don't seem to have been elves. Chronos was later absorbed by Labelas Enoreth, however.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which is what I said...
Okay, okay, that bit had gotten lost in the discussion.
I've come to enjoy the concept of crossovers again, so I like the links to Earth, at least when it's discreet and cheeky. Ed's been doing it from the start. It's cute having Earth as another location in the universe, and was fun developing an article about it:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Earth |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
Edited by - BadCatMan on 26 Oct 2016 09:54:05 |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2016 : 16:13:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And the Vikings (Northmen) and Tyr found their way on their own as well.
Irish/Celtic could have used the same Gate as the Northmen somewhere in the British Isles (maybe an island? Maybe there's a crossing-over point in FR, via the Feywild, or some such?) And its 'far end' connection could easily be in its FR counterpart - The Moonshaes, which would make it right for both cultures (I can picture Avalon and other 'disappearing islands' fading in-and-out of both worlds).
I'm still favoring my idea that the Greeks were a 'prototype' for the later Mulan, but whatever, Its all good. We got Tyche, Dionysius, and Chronos from somewhere, and that 'Thraxus'(sp?) guy sounds awfully 'Roman' as well. Speaking of Chronos, looking at all that in hindsight, and with the 4e lore, it might just be easier to relegate him to having been a primordial (Titan). Considering the area, perhaps he was even one of the 'Seven Lost Gods' (who should ALL probably be primordials, at this point).
'Chronos of the Temporal River' has a nice ring to it, and it would make sense if there were Elder Time Elementals (Primordials).
We'll all have our own likes and dislikes, but I personally would prefer it if the Northmen came from somewhere else OTHER than earth. Now, when we have things that are obviously named after RW races (for instance, the Rus... which is a different faction of Northmen), I'm not as disinclined to say that maybe those came from earth if the name actually matches. There's plenty of places in the multiverse that worship the norse deities though. In fact, I know folk are big on that the Egyptians and Sumerian/Babylonians were taken, but I'd personally prefer that the Mulan people came from elsewhere, especially since they call themselves by a different racial name (Mulan). Given that the Sumerian location in the world and the Egyptian are relatively widely separated (Egypt being with the Nile in Africa and Sumeria/ Babylonia being over by the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in between Iraq and Iran)... it could be argued that they are not the people who were "from a land of desert goverened by the seasonal pulse of a mighty river". Throw in that Ancient Egyptians didn't portray themselves as pale white with no body hair... that is a modern portrayal... the hieroglyphics indicate more of a dark brown and they definitely had hair (of course, some may say that they interbred with the Imaskari).
Hell, for that matter, we really don't have a good handle on where the humans that became the Nars and the Raumathari originally came from, nor the Turami. It very well be that the Turami were in fact the ones that came "from a land of desert governed by the seasonal pulse of a mighty river" or even some empire. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2016 : 20:23:21
|
I'm actually much of the same mind - I prefer finding less.. ummm... heavy-handed? explanations for certain cultures in me settings (even if canon says otherwise).
In MY 'Misbegotten Realms', I have the Flanaess (GH) over where Anchoromź should be, so that MY 'Northmen' are really the Northern barbarians from THAT continent - it really works out perfectly for a culture that did some 'island hoping' to discover northern Faerūn. But in canon FR, they did indeed come from 'elsewhere', but we have no idea where; and if you read some of the earliest mentions of their history, they seem to have traveled up the coast, implying that they came from the southwest, NOT from further north - I even asked Ed about this once, but he skirted the issue. Only confirmed the 'elsewhere' part, as in, 'not from Faerūn'.
I suppose we could blame Abeir for them as well...
As for the Finnish elements in the setting, I spun things in the completely opposite direction. That Kalevala (and the evil city of Pohjola) were actually located in the northern Taan region, to the east (and on the coast of) Yal Tengri, 'the Great Ice Sea'. Thus, all the Finnish 'myths' actually took place on Toril, and then those people (the Kalmyks from The Horde box) found gates to Earth, and spread the tales.
And now that I've just gone back into all of that, I've noticed two things - Kalevala has a similar etymolgy to 'Valhala'. I wonder (RW) if the two are somehow related?
And as for the lore - I was thinking (just now) along the lines the final battle with Pohjola - what if the crone Louhi managed to transfer her entire city 'elsewhere', out of the Realms, which may have created this theoretical portal the Kalmyk found and used? It didn't have to go directly to (D&D) Earth, it could have made it into the Feywild or Shadowfell.
But what if the 'Crone of Pohjola' was an expert on this sort of magic (perhaps even a former Imaskari)? What if she perfected it eventually, and incorporated it into her home... a hut with chicken legs? 
Whats if Louhi is also Baba Yaga?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 26 Oct 2016 20:28:22 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2016 : 22:40:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm actually much of the same mind - I prefer finding less.. ummm... heavy-handed? explanations for certain cultures in me settings (even if canon says otherwise).
In MY 'Misbegotten Realms', I have the Flanaess (GH) over where Anchoromź should be, so that MY 'Northmen' are really the Northern barbarians from THAT continent - it really works out perfectly for a culture that did some 'island hoping' to discover northern Faerūn. But in canon FR, they did indeed come from 'elsewhere', but we have no idea where; and if you read some of the earliest mentions of their history, they seem to have traveled up the coast, implying that they came from the southwest, NOT from further north - I even asked Ed about this once, but he skirted the issue. Only confirmed the 'elsewhere' part, as in, 'not from Faerūn'.
I suppose we could blame Abeir for them as well...
As for the Finnish elements in the setting, I spun things in the completely opposite direction. That Kalevala (and the evil city of Pohjola) were actually located in the northern Taan region, to the east (and on the coast of) Yal Tengri, 'the Great Ice Sea'. Thus, all the Finnish 'myths' actually took place on Toril, and then those people (the Kalmyks from The Horde box) found gates to Earth, and spread the tales.
And now that I've just gone back into all of that, I've noticed two things - Kalevala has a similar etymolgy to 'Valhala'. I wonder (RW) if the two are somehow related?
And as for the lore - I was thinking (just now) along the lines the final battle with Pohjola - what if the crone Louhi managed to transfer her entire city 'elsewhere', out of the Realms, which may have created this theoretical portal the Kalmyk found and used? It didn't have to go directly to (D&D) Earth, it could have made it into the Feywild or Shadowfell.
But what if the 'Crone of Pohjola' was an expert on this sort of magic (perhaps even a former Imaskari)? What if she perfected it eventually, and incorporated it into her home... a hut with chicken legs?
Whats if Louhi is also Baba Yaga?
On the Finnish and Norse gods being "related"... I'd definitely say yes. The two groups were near each other in RW. They both have a great tree focus. The Norse have the Valkyries and the finnish have their winged Air Maidens.
It should be noted that the Asgardians had a war with another "Pantheon" which were the Vanir.... and the chief hero/god of the Kalevala is "Vainamoinen". I wouldn't be surprised if you travelled back in time there's some ties between the Finnish stories and the Vanir, and that's how the two people interacted. The Aesir-Vanir war may have been a mirror of the Norse people of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden interacting with the neighboring country of Finland. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2016 : 23:36:15
|
Hmmmm, in looking at Norse/Finnish/Slavic deities I looked up the Slavic deity Perun (who many compare to Thor). Check this out...
From the Wiki Page for Perun
From comparison to the Baltic mythology, and also from additional sources in Slavic folklore, it can also be shown that Perun was married to the Sun. He, however, shared his wife with his enemy Veles, as each night the Sun was thought of as diving behind the horizon and into the underworld, the realm of the dead over which Veles ruled.
Now, check this out for the sun goddess At'ar in the old Anauroch supplement
"Bedine tend to fear and obey their deities, rather than worshipping them. Chief among them is At'ar the Merciless, the Yellow Goddess. She is the sun, seen as a spiteful, faithless woman.
<snip>
Kozah is the Bedine god of tempests; he vents his wrath by causing sandstorms (the sand left in the air for days after a major storm, that colors the sky crimson as the sun rises, is known as "Kozah's mark";). Desert storms show his fury at the faithlessness of his wife At#146;ar, as the harlot enters N'asr's tent night after night ( = the sun goes down). Kozah is the god Talos"
So, in Slavic lore Perun (god of Thunder, lightning, and the Sky) has a faithless wife that is the Sun which cheats on him nightly with Veles, the god of the underworld where the dead are.
In Bedine lore Kozah (god of desert storms) has a faithless wife At'ar that is the Sun which cheats on him nightly with Nas'r, the god of the underworld where the dead are.
So, given that... its almost like Kozah = Perun; At'ar = whatever Perun's wife's name was (Mokos); Nas'r = Veles... Throw in there that Veles is also often portrayed as a snake or dragon personification
Of course, that book states that Kozah is Talos, At'ar is Amaunator (though it doesn't resemble Amaunator at all), and that Nas'r is Cyric (even though Cyric had just been made a god). I submit that the Bedine MIGHT be worshipping the Slavic gods.... some of which may have been subsumed (I do note that Talos and Perun seem very similar in portfolio, but different in temperament)
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Oct 2016 23:40:35 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 06:50:50
|
Well, that meshes beautifully with my theories that the original people of Seventon were actually tribes of Gur (barbarians of the Wastes that would be the equivalent of 'Cossacks') that migrated west as the Imaskari began to expand into the northern Taan. Those that stayed became Imaskari subjects (and later The Kalmyk). They would have traveled across Vassa & Damara (most of which was covered by a glacier back then) and the Moonsea region (which also looked quite different then), and finally into The Ride, and on into the then-fertile Anauroch Basin. This probably took a milenia or more, and they left a trail of their own people behind along the way (the most recent in The Ride, which is canon). In fact, its possible that the Vassan glacier didn't even exist then - it may have been a second 'little ice-age' caused by whatever carved out the Moonsea in its current form (sadly, the few historic maps we have of FR never properly portray the continent as it was in the lore).
Its easier for us to just think its always been the same glacier and part of the stuff that happened with the giants that formed the Great Glacier, but the Vassan glacier could have been an extension of that that came about at a later time, which explains why it also receded so much more quickly than its more northern counterpart (which is being maintained by artifact-level magic). The 'Western' Gur may have been the original Vassans (as well as the Narfelli), who fled south and further west once the glacier started to swallow-up Vassa. We are talking like 7-10K years ago.
Then, thousands of years later, the folks of northern Impiltur (later southern Damara) could have expanded north as the glacier retreated again. Or, conversely, the Gur could have just skirted the Glacier as they migrated west, and after having passed through the region of Narfell and Rashemen (once again, leaving behind tribes of barbarian 'easterners', who became a Khazar-like group which eventually merged with the Mulan in Rashemen, but not in Narfel, where they remained 'purer').
Anyhow, part of the reason why I developed all that lore was to give a reason for some Finnish pantheon members appearing in the west when they did - it was the proto-Netherese who brought them. Now, using your connections to the Bedine, it all makes so much more sense. the 'low Netherese' (I believe) stayed with the 'Old Faith', and most of the survivors came from that group. Throw in that some of their ancestral cousins from The Ride may have given them help (and some religion), I could see a 'reemergence' of the 'Old faith' come about, but with slightly different names and myths, because of the admixture of the Zakaran blood (through Gates), which then became the new group known as the Bedine. The Bedine would have a 'blended' religion of Zakhara and the Old (Finnish/Eastern European) faith.
Too bad the Bedine are linked to Zakhara. I guess it was an easy thing to do at the time, but it just muddied the waters even more, and gave us yet-another 'Middle Eastern' group in the Realms. Nearly all the modern Faerūnians would be hybrid groups of at least two other earlier groups (who may also be hybrids themselves, etc, ad infinitum). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 27 Oct 2016 21:10:35 |
|
|
|
AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 07:33:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And now that I've just gone back into all of that, I've noticed two things - Kalevala has a similar etymolgy to 'Valhala'. I wonder (RW) if the two are somehow related?
They aren't related. Finnish and the North Germanic languages, while having loan words and such, are not related. The -la part of Kalevala is a location-identifying ending; i.e. Kaleva-la is "the land of Kaleva" (kanala is henhouse, from kana "hen," for example). Kaleva is a progenitor giant in Finnish mythology (his giant aspect could be due to influence from Norse mythology).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But what if the 'Crone of Pohjola' was an expert on this sort of magic (perhaps even a former Imaskari)? What if she perfected it eventually, and incorporated it into her home... a hut with chicken legs?
Whats if Louhi is also Baba Yaga?
Canonically (or perhaps only semi-canonically, I can't recall), Louhi is one of the names Iggwilv goes by (although I would treat that as a usurpation rather than making Iggwilv actually be Louhi). I can't recall any representations of Louhi in line with Baba Yaga (other than the evil old woman persona), but considering the influence of Slavic mythology on Finnic mythology, it's possible. However, Louhi is interchangeable with Loviatar (and the names are etymologically connected) in much Finnish folklore outside of the Kalevala itself, which was compiled from many sources and edited to be a single coherent narrative, and in doing so separated the two.
quote:
Originally posted by Sleyvas
On the Finnish and Norse gods being "related"... I'd definitely say yes. The two groups were near each other in RW. They both have a great tree focus. The Norse have the Valkyries and the finnish have their winged Air Maidens.
It should be noted that the Asgardians had a war with another "Pantheon" which were the Vanir.... and the chief hero/god of the Kalevala is "Vainamoinen". I wouldn't be surprised if you travelled back in time there's some ties between the Finnish stories and the Vanir, and that's how the two people interacted. The Aesir-Vanir war may have been a mirror of the Norse people of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden interacting with the neighboring country of Finland.
There's certainly influence of Germanic and Slavic mythology on Finnish mythology; both cultures had extensive contact with the Finnish peoples. However, it is unlikely that there is a relation between "Vanir" and "Vainamoinen." The few deities attributed to the Vanir are clearly Germanic (Njord is related to Nerthus, Freyja and Frigga are etymologically related, and Freyja and Freyr mean Lady and Lord respectively). Connecting the two on the basis of a V and an N is extremely tenuous.
Given that the Vanir are a nebulous group other than the few "guests" who exist within the Aesir, and those have established relations within other Germanic languages, it seems to me that the Vanir developed specifically as a mythological foe for the Aesir, rather than as a reflection of, or importation of, another culture's deities.
As to connecting the mythologies on the basis of sacred trees, that is also tenuous; trees are sacred in a large number of unrelated religions. As far as I recall, there isn't any tree as prominent in Finnish mythology as Yggdrasil is in Norse mythology.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
Edited by - AuldDragon on 29 Oct 2016 08:27:09 |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 13:41:42
|
True, and it could also very well be that all those "deities" are in fact Primordials (Kozah as a "god" of desert storms, At'ar as a female fire primordial, Nas'r as some Primordial with ties to genies and death since it also states that...
"Djinn serve N#146;asr; he gives the dead who displease him or who don#146;t measure up to them for sport, and then food. The worst fate of a Bedine is to wind up the slave of N#146;asr, so Bedine dead are washed to cleanse away the odor of life, to avoid offending N#146;asr."
Since you mention Nakasr as being a Zakharan deity, that fits even more.... if his personification matches? Where's that from?
In fact, I half wonder the more I delve into things whether or not the original splitting of Abeir and Toril wasn't along deity and primordial/Dawn Titan lines, and Faerunians have it wrong. I wonder if it wasn't a move by Ao to ascend higher and shunt his personal enemies outside of Toril (because maybe Ao wasn't always the Overgod). I suspect that there were plenty of "Primordials" left behind in Toril, and that we've slowly uncovered them.
I'll even submit another definitely more suspect idea.... what if the many deities who "died" leading up to the spellplague were instead being shunted to Abeir to take out Ao's sleeping enemies.... and maybe Abeir has its own "Overgod" or its equivalent. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Chessentan Language
