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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jun 2016 : 20:08:41
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Hello together,
I've borrowed the "Lost Empires of Faerun" and read about the Crown Wars. And I've got a question about Ilythiir's atrocity.
The elves from Ilythiir have according to the book "called stones from the sky" and "caused the earth to boil and scream" and it is described as making the Aryvandaar's atrocities look tame in comparison.
Just a section above it is the Dark Disaster described which turned Miyeritar into a wasteland for 10000+ years.
Just out of curiosity but does anybody know what Ilythiir has exactly done that makes the Dark Disaster "seem tame"?
Thank you for answering in advance
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2016 : 20:24:15
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To my knowledge, nothing. Almost everyone involved in that war commited atrocities (except people of the realms that were dragged in and/or destroyed). Ilythiir didn't commit genocide, that I know.
Their nobles were seduced by Wendonai, but so were the Vyshaan by Malkzid.
There is only one difference: their rulers started to worship Lolth. Commoners were also starting to pray to her, but her faith wasn't strong yet, and commoners were mostly normal folks who just lived their lives (not evil people seduced by fiends--even non evil humans pray to evil deities, among others. It would honestly be very far fetched if random farmers and workers, with no magical knowledge, most likely terrified of demons, all of sudden started making deal with them en masse, becaming twisted and cruel, corrupted by them). However, for the elves and the Seldarine, that was enough to decide to shun them all, curse them all, and basically push them into Lolth's arms (instead of eradicating her cult, using the fact that, you know, the winners of a war have a huge edge on the defeated).
Lolth's faith grew stronger because of that, because of the isolation imposed on the drow, and because other deities were weakened (Eilistraee in particular, since most of her followers, who were in Miyeritar, had been killed by the Vyshaan). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Jun 2016 20:35:56 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2016 : 21:00:56
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A basic rule, the winners write the history.
The Drow/dark elves lost, there for they were more Evil then the Winners that caused The Dark Disaster (The Killing Storm that reduced the entire forest and realm of Miyeritar into barren wastelands within three months.
The only other thing that might be considered more Evil. Forest Blight as opposed to Fire Fires. *shrugs*
It appears more Evil to burn trees then give them a disease that takes longer to kill the trees and ever other thing that lives in an area. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2016 : 14:08:08
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| As I understand this it was meant as excuse for banishing them (for me it is linked with power struggle between Corellion and Lloth). Mentioned atrocities were heresy (worship of Lloth), sacrifices of sentients and general disregard for nature. Until the very end of Crown wars sun elves were victors and even after vyshan were defeated they still consider themselves superior even amongst elves. That is why all the blame goes to drows. |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2016 : 17:43:20
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Thank you for the answers,
I see that everyone thinks that religious and a general need to have a guilty party were the reasons the atrocities of Ilythiir were evaluated as worse than the ones from others.
I've got still a question about them. Are there any places where the effects of Ilythiir's magic can be seen in the sense of environmental disasters like the High Moor? The background of this question is that "poisoning the ground so nothing grows anymore" like the Dark Disaster is something demons and their worshippers would cause (while Malkizid is a devil that's what happened). Is there somewhere a place which can be used as a showcase of "look that's why Ilythiir was dangerous"?
Thank you again for answering |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2016 : 19:37:04
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IIRC, the Shaar was more like a prairie, then the Spellplague turned it into a desert.
As for the Sable Wars (again, IIRC, probably from the Cormanthyr book), things went like this. After Aryvandaar started the Crown Wars by attacking Miyeritar, Ilythiir started to attack the nations who supported them, burning forests and houses among the other things. At some point those nations decided to counterattack, but failed, leading to Ilythiir dealing the ''coup de grace'' (helped by some traitors).
This seems very tame compared to what the Aryvandaari did, tbh (and not only to Miyeritar).
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Jun 2016 19:37:32 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2016 : 20:31:03
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Ilythiir destroyed several elven realms by enclosing them in rings of fire, then summoning magic to force the fire to burn inward. Everyone, except a few who could teleport away or fled into Seros (the Sea of Fallen Stars) was burned to death. The reason the Shaar is grassland is becuase the Ilythiiri burned all of the forests down, along with unknown hundreds of thousands or millions of elves.
It was that reckless fire wielding and deforestation, as much as the extermination (I'm not sure you can call it genocide, since all of the subraces survived, but the death toll in those realms was close to 100%) that turned the other elves against the Ilythiiri. Remember, elves have a bond with the land, and their forests in particular. Deliberately destroying the forests is an enormous crime. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2016 : 20:32:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
IIRC, the Shaar was more like a prairie, then the Spellplague turned it into a desert.
As for the Sable Wars (again, IIRC, probably from the Cormanthyr book), things went like this. After Aryvandaar started the Crown Wars by attacking Miyeritar, Ilythiir started to attack the nations who supported them, burning forests and houses among the other things. At some point those nations decided to counterattack, but failed, leading to Ilythiir dealing the ''coup de grace'' (helped by some traitors).
This seems very tame compared to what the Aryvandaari did, tbh (and not only to Miyeritar).
Yeah, I agree on the Shaar wasn't extremely desert-like until the spellplague. It was more like the American plains where the Indians dwelled. I don't know if we ever found out what caused the landrise in the middle of it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2016 : 20:51:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Deliberately destroying the forests is an enormous crime.
Then it's basically what Aryvandaar did (maybe slightly better). Which leaves heresy as the only game-changing (to the elves) crime. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2016 : 21:19:30
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| They supposedly communed with fell beings and used dark magic for their gains (sounds a lot like witchcraft). Other than that most actual atrocites (dark court slaughter, spiderfire, experiments, use of poison) came after the Descent. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2016 : 21:36:20
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| Fell beings and dark magic were also used by other elves (and that was a rulers/nobles thing, not perpetuated by your random farmer/worker). So yeah, in the end, heresy is the main factor (which could have been eradicated, instead of basically helped. But, as you pointed out, I guess that there was the need to have some kind of scapegoat). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2016 : 21:38:55
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
As for the descent. I hate the gods did it excuse. The high mages and "priests" of the seldarine worked a ritual to transform the illythiiri (although up until this point there was no mention of the seldarine in the histories so priests may not be an entirely accurate term).
That I know, the Seldarine--and the Dark Seldarine too--were already worshiped by the elves by the Crown Wars. They were ''imported'' when the elves reached Faerun from Tintageer (Vhaeraun, Eilistraee and Ghaunadaur were already worshiped there tho, if I'm not mistaken). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2016 : 06:52:47
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Irennen, I'm not sure where you're going with this. Aryvandaar was destroyed as thoroughly as Ilythiir. Its rulers were exterminated, its armies scattered, and its people forcibly removed to other realms. The entire forest sat empty "for an age" to cleanse it of the evil that had been done.
"Vyshaan" is the second worst curse in the elven language, second only to "dhaerow." We have Ed's Word of God that the elves as an entire race will never accept a Vyshaan (since a few escaped) in any position of power, anywhere, ever again. When it looked like a second realm (Siluvanede) was following in Aryvandaar's footsteps, the elves established a different realm (Eaerlann) and then forcibly made Sluvanede its vassal.
We have no evidence that any of the other Crown Wars nations, great or small, used dark magic or caused wanton destruction except for Ilythiir and Aryvandaar. And those are the two nations that were destroyed, and that the elves have refused to let re-form in any fashion for more than 10,000 years since. It's atrocity, and the moral and deific degeneration that comes from it, that was the point.
Finally, whether Aryvandaar actually caused the Dark Disaster remains unclear, and was totally unknown during the Crown Wars. Were they suspected? Sure. But so were a lot of other things, including divine wrath. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2016 : 12:45:13
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| What I wanted to say is that Aryvandaar and Ilythiir are two very similar situations, starting from the fact that their rulers were seduced by fiends, and ending with the crimes that they have committed. Yet, these two kingdoms are perceived and were punished in very different ways. The whole population of Ilythiir (a whole race,actually) was condemned and associated with the atrocities of their army/rulers/nobles, while in Aryvandaar only the Vyshaan were condemned. The only reason I can think for this, is that the Ilythiiri had stopped worshipping the Seldarine. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 29 Jun 2016 13:43:12 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2016 : 18:30:10
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| Which is a very good reason if you see Lolth's rule over the drow in all books, no? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2016 : 19:57:39
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| It isn't, especially when the cult wasn't even the main religion (Vhaeraun was the main deity of Ilythiir, and other gods were worshiped too, including Eilistraee), and your random citizen probably wasn't evil/corrupted, or what you have (Lolth's influence only became that pervasive in the lives of her followers after the Descent). And when--as victors--the rest of the elves could have outlawed and eradicated the cult of Lolth from Ilythiir, instead of empowering it and pushing the dark elves between Lolth's arms, by blindly cursing and shunning *all* of them. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 29 Jun 2016 19:58:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2016 : 20:03:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
And when--as victors--the rest of the elves could have outlawed and eradicated the cult of Lolth from Ilythiir, instead of empowering it and pushing the dark elves between Lolth's arms, by blindly cursing and shunning *all* of them.
Yes, they would have identified all the Lolthites by the black tabards they always wore, emblazoned with a big L on the front and an upthrust middle finger on the back. Followers of Lolth always dress like that.
Seriously, how would they find and identify Lolth worshippers? How would they outlaw a person's religion? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2016 : 20:16:14
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First of all, by making it impossible to openly worship her, making it much harder to embrace her faith, and removing all those who started the whole thing (like the Sethomir, much like it happened for the Vyshaan). Organizing strict controls to eradicate the cult (at least in the first years after the war), while also using divination magic for that purpose (reading people's thought, zones of truth, scrying, and so on), would definitely go a long way. If they have magic to sunder lands and curse whole races, they also have magic to do trivial stuff like that. It would more or less be the same as how it works in RL with crimes, except with many more tools.
At worst this would have prevented Lolth's faith from becoming dominant, and would have reduced it to an underground cult. Abandoning a whole people only made things worse anyway (and the ''it's easier to recognized potential enemies'' doesn't really make sense either, since they can use magical disguise, and since they were already identifiable, being their own subrace). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Jun 2016 01:42:37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 05:27:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
First of all, by making it impossible to openly worship her, making it much harder to embrace her faith, and removing all those who started the whole thing (like the Sethomir, much like it happened for the Vyshaan). Organizing strict controls to eradicate the cult (at least in the first years after the war), while also using divination magic for that purpose (reading people's thought, zones of truth, scrying, and so on), would definitely go a long way. If they have magic to sunder lands and curse whole races, they also have magic to do trivial stuff like that. It would more or less be the same as how it works in RL with crimes, except with many more tools.
At worst this would have prevented Lolth's faith from becoming dominant, and would have reduced it to an underground cult. Abandoning a whole people only made things worse anyway (and the ''it's easier to recognized potential enemies'' doesn't really make sense either, since they can use magical disguise, and since they were already identifiable, being their own subrace).
Outright banning religion does not work. You can tear down every church and outlaw the very mention of her, and her faithful are still going to hold on to their faith and find others to share it with.
There are plenty of real-world examples of attempts to ban religion, and every example shows that it can't be done.
The last I checked, there is no divination magic keyed to finding out who a person worships -- and even if there was, Lolth could simply grant spells to thwart it. If Vhaeraun can have traitor-priestesses, surely Lolth can trump magic cast by mortals. We already have magic items made by mortal hands that can defeat divination magics.
And unless you're planning on doing detailed, frequent, and highly thorough mind reads on every single citizen (including every person doing the mind reads), people are still going to slip thru the cracks -- and that's again presuming Lolth doesn't give them magic to thwart those tactics. Furthermore, nothing's going to piss off innocent people more than having their very thoughts routinely violated -- this tactic could actually drive people to Lolth or other evil powers.
Your tactics would be more likely to strengthen Lolthite worship, not diminish it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 05:27:33
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There are several things that seem missing in this discussion, I think largely because of re-wordings in subsequent publications over the years that have taken all the mystery and confusion out of the Dark Disaster. I suggest you look to the history in the Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves book and adhere to its description of the Crown Wars, writing off all later, more concrete accounts to the opinion of the writer. (Remember that, in theory, all of our knowledge of Toril comes to us second hand, by word of mouth and so is never the crystal clear truth. Perspective of the story teller and writer colors it all). According to that source:
"Even the elves are unclear over the course of events that led to the catastrophe, though it centered on conquered Miyeritar and the resistors to Aryvandaan rule therein. Some speak of High Mage sympathizers within Miyeritar harnessing forbidden, blasphemous magics against their elves, a taboo never before broken by elves, no matter how mad. Others point to the gold High Mages of Aryvandaar, their political and familial connections with the now-recognizably power-mad Vyshaantar clan, and their greater number and greater powers. Regardless of which elves did what to whom, the killing storms known by elves as the Dark Disaster were summoned over Miyeritar 1,000 years after the first Vyshaan noble walked among its wooded glades as a conqueror."
So basically, no one really knows for sure who caused the killing storms. Everyone knew about the repeated war crimes of the Ilythiiri and their "non-elven" tactics which you discussed earlier. Even after the fourth Crown War and the creation of the Elven Court, it took 1000 years to decide that the Vyshaan were responsible for the problems that caused the wars. I personally think, given what we know about the Ilythiiri, that they very well could have created the killing storms just so they could justify any retaliation they desired. It seems far to clumsy an assault for the Vyshaan, who were first and foremost evil manipulators guided by Malkazid who acted for the most part in secrecy.
As for the Descent of the Drow, again it is described without certainty:
"How the wars concluded is a vague mystery to all but a few, though many believe High Magic and priests of all the Seldarine became involved in this schism. All that needs be known is that no dark elf has easily walked the sunlit lands of Faerun for more than eleven millennia."
I think any source that claims to know exactly what occurred in the distant past is simply constructing a coherent story that fits their interpretation of the Crown Wars. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 05:48:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
First of all, by making it impossible to openly worship her, making it much harder to embrace her faith, and removing all those who started the whole thing (like the Sethomir, much like it happened for the Vyshaan). Organizing strict controls to eradicate the cult (at least in the first years after the war), while also using divination magic for that purpose (reading people's thought, zones of truth, scrying, and so on), would definitely go a long way. If they have magic to sunder lands and curse whole races, they also have magic to do trivial stuff like that. It would more or less be the same as how it works in RL with crimes, except with many more tools.
At worst this would have prevented Lolth's faith from becoming dominant, and would have reduced it to an underground cult. Abandoning a whole people only made things worse anyway (and the ''it's easier to recognized potential enemies'' doesn't really make sense either, since they can use magical disguise, and since they were already identifiable, being their own subrace).
Outright banning religion does not work. You can tear down every church and outlaw the very mention of her, and her faithful are still going to hold on to their faith and find others to share it with.
There are plenty of real-world examples of attempts to ban religion, and every example shows that it can't be done.
The last I checked, there is no divination magic keyed to finding out who a person worships -- and even if there was, Lolth could simply grant spells to thwart it. If Vhaeraun can have traitor-priestesses, surely Lolth can trump magic cast by mortals. We already have magic items made by mortal hands that can defeat divination magics.
And unless you're planning on doing detailed, frequent, and highly thorough mind reads on every single citizen (including every person doing the mind reads), people are still going to slip thru the cracks -- and that's again presuming Lolth doesn't give them magic to thwart those tactics. Furthermore, nothing's going to piss off innocent people more than having their very thoughts routinely violated -- this tactic could actually drive people to Lolth or other evil powers.
Your tactics would be more likely to strengthen Lolthite worship, not diminish it.
Yes, you have a point. Thinking about it, what I proposed wouldn't really work (although, banning open worship would surely pose an obstacle to the diffusion of this religion. It would be more of a cult. Taking down all those nobles who had dealt with Wendonai and had become tainted would have aso helped. Normal investigations, interrogations of suspects in zones of truth would also be still usable).
But then, the banishment definitely wasn't a solution, and it provided Lolth with immense influnce over the drow. Another way could have been to show to the general population of Ilythiir (who are not innately evil, and were not tainted yet) that the elves were not their enemies, helping the refugees of Miyeritar, and showing mercy to the defeated. Just anything but the banishment, because that is yet another atrocity of the Crown Wars.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Jun 2016 05:51:58 |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 06:22:36
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About Aryvandaar's guilt regarding the Dark Disaster.
The Lost Empires of Faerun has clearly said that it was Aryvandaar's fault, precisely Vyhaantar High Mages' (p.55 of said book).
Was it retconned at sometime?
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Edited by - sw1989 on 30 Jun 2016 06:22:56 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 07:31:14
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quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
About Aryvandaar's guilt regarding the Dark Disaster.
The Lost Empires of Faerun has clearly said that it was Aryvandaar's fault, precisely Vyhaantar High Mages' (p.55 of said book).
Was it retconned at sometime?
No - As I said, in some later sources the confusion and mystery was removed. While this scenario seems plausible, unfortunately it makes zero sense for this to be historical fact, known to elves everywhere because if it did then why would it take a thousand years (that's 3 or four elven generations) to figure out the Vyshaan were the problem.
One of the biggest problems I had with the 3rd edition source books was that they took earlier information from 1st & 2nd ed, which left a lot of wiggle room to decide what was and was not true, and chose one possibility and presented it as fact. This was done all over the place, for better or worse.
Still, when you go back to the very beginning, and to the idea that Toril is another world existing concurrent with our own and that Elminster and 1 or two others have relayed information about it to Ed of the Greenwood, then any and all such "THIS IS FACT" statements can easily be explained away as I suggested. It makes literally ALL lore we have about the realms 2nd or 3rd hand information, which means discrepancies and interpretations are the result of those passing on information.
Think about our own history. There are no shortage of competing interpretations on any number of events, but that does not stop one historian or another from writing a thesis or publishing a book that presents their interpretation as hard fact. There is also no shortage of the poorly informed who learn all they known about history from the movies. I think of the 3rd edition books as being written by these people, who tell us exactly what they think happened in the story they heard or saw but have only heard one interpretation. |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 10:24:01
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Thank you for the reply,
I talked about this with a friend in university and according to him 5th edition's "Sword Coast Adventure Guide" says in the High Moor section that there was no evidence ever found that supports the connection between Arvandaar and the Dark Disaster.
I have to borrow the book yet but it seems that WotC decided to give DMs a lot of "wiggle room".
Again thank you for the reply |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 13:00:05
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Yes, the exact line he's talking about reads:
"The high mages of Aryvandaar are blamed for the destruction, although no proof was ever produced." |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 16:00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Most of the above is probably events from novels (which i dont read so cant comment on), or could be detailed in a 4e or 5e sourcebook (which again i dont read).
Ive never heard of the stuff about the killing storm having unknown origins, nor about the southern forests being completely annihilated by rings of fire with all inhabitants destroyed. Both of those are contradicted by earlier sourcebooks (which i prefer).
Similarly the earlier sourcebooks state that until the descent the seldarine were faerie lords (not gods) and it is implied that they were largely unknown or ignored by the elves (something it would seem that is contradicted elsewhere in novels and later sources).
I guess you have to pick and choose which sources you favour. I personally hate the god nonsense so i ignore all novels and nything after 3e and some of the later 3e developments that involve gods. If you like the adolescent super beings then choose the novels and later sourcebooks.
The story of the Seldarine and Dark Seldarine as deities dates back to 2e, with the various deities books and Elaine's Evermeet,
The other info come from Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves (a 2e sourcebook) and Lost Empires of Faerun. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 12:18:22
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In my Realms Crown Wars were mirroring the divine strugle for power between Seldarine (or the other way around for Dazzelerdal :-)). First there was a battle between Corellion and his brother Gruumash, leader of the Green elves. He lost due to Corellion's backing of Moon and Dark elves - this was confirmed by taking Araushnee as his wife. He was deformed and crippled then banished from Arvandor. Most of his elves were corrupted with him and are now what we call goblins. Later Araushnee tried to murder her husband with her allies but was thwarted by Moon elven godesses who saved Corellion. She was then also corrupted and banished and her elves were made into drows (smaller, hate sun and evil - similar to goblins).
Gold elves were the same as their god - arrogant supremacist who continuously make efforts to rule all others. It first have shown with Vyshaan lords and continues until fall of Myth Drannor due to their actions. Later they created Eldereth Veluuthra to contiue their fight with lesser beings. Their own gods are logicaly viewed as good as they tend for their own.
Another thought about Crown Wars era is that it seems to me that all elven High Magic was created from Sarrukh's Nether Scrolls. It is written that southern Ilithiri had great culture but have not mastered High magic (or at least Drow somehow lost it). Also it is written that Myeritar was greatest place for High magic learning and that Vyshaan lords coveted this knowledge. If you look at that Myeritar was closest to former center of magic research of sarrukh (Isstofil) it make sense to those discoveries. Also it seems they were hiding this source and proclaming they mastered it themselves. After Arthindol points Netheries towards this repository elves kept silent and tried to steal them back (later depositing the complete set of scrolls into Myth Drannor school of magic). It seems logical to me that Vyshans also found some remnants of this (hall of mists) and presumed the source under Myeritar lands. After they denied it's existance Vyshans launched attacks under influence of their demonic allies. As they were already corrupted I see no reason they wouldn't use full uncontrolled power to defeat their enemy (Dark Disaster). It might also be accident by either side from releasing some sarrukh experiment or failed ritual (possibly even side effect of their transformative magic into sharn). |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 14:16:50
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Dazzler, the sources I was pulling from are 2e. Primarily they're the Cormanthyr box set and the Sea of Fallen Stars book. Both describe the destruction of the southern realms, and Cormanthyr, as aptly quoted above, introduces the Killing Storm but does not give any firm answer in what caused it.
I'm glad to hear that 5e has returned to 2e's tradition of avoiding the direct, hard-and-fast answers that afflicted 3e.
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Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Most of the above is probably events from novels (which i dont read so cant comment on), or could be detailed in a 4e or 5e sourcebook (which again i dont read).
Ive never heard of the stuff about the killing storm having unknown origins, nor about the southern forests being completely annihilated by rings of fire with all inhabitants destroyed. Both of those are contradicted by earlier sourcebooks (which i prefer).
Similarly the earlier sourcebooks state that until the descent the seldarine were faerie lords (not gods) and it is implied that they were largely unknown or ignored by the elves (something it would seem that is contradicted elsewhere in novels and later sources).
I guess you have to pick and choose which sources you favour. I personally hate the god nonsense so i ignore all novels and nything after 3e and some of the later 3e developments that involve gods. If you like the adolescent super beings then choose the novels and later sourcebooks.
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Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 17:19:44
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I can't think of any source from FR that has the Seldarine as anything other than Gods...
This dates from 1st edition, in the Old Gray Box (that's 1987). It is possible Ed published some articles on the Seldarine in Dragon before that, but I'm not sure.
Later, 2nd Edition gave us Monster Mythology and the Complete Book of Elves in 1992 then Elves of Evermeet 2 years later which gave us more information on the Seldarine. Finally, Demihuman Deities in 1998 was a motherload of Seldarine information.
Is it possible you are crossing between the different settings? Elves in Dragonlance possibly?
The only other thing I can think of is that one or two novels mention that the specific tribe in the story have different ethos. |
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Ilythiir question about atrocity
