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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  18:48:46  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

but then they seem to make those stereotypical villain blunders that you know damn well they wouldn't normally make.

Dude, take the intensity level down a couple notches, OK?

And it's not that I don't understand, it's that I don't agree. I don't agree that Telamont, et. al, are supreme overlords of Awesome who can do no wrong.

The fall of Shade is a shock to many readers, I am sure, but that's part of the fun of reading.

Just because it happened doesn't mean somebody at WotC made a mistake, or that Ed is writing characters "wrong."

But if people really think somebody screwed up, then give --detailed-- examples. Convince me.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  18:57:09  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

but then they seem to make those stereotypical villain blunders that you know damn well they wouldn't normally make.

Dude, take the intensity level down a couple notches, OK?

And it's not that I don't understand, it's that I don't agree. I don't agree that Telamont, et. al, are supreme overlords of Awesome who can do no wrong.

The fall of Shade is a shock to many readers, I am sure, but that's part of the fun of reading.

Just because it happened doesn't mean somebody at WotC made a mistake, or that Ed is writing characters "wrong."

But if people really think somebody screwed up, then give --detailed-- examples. Convince me.



They aren't Overlords of Can't do no wrong. You continue to give the impression that you don't seem to get what is being said.

These villains can fail but not in one of those stereotypical stupid ways and we have yet to see that.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.

Edited by - Shadowsoul on 28 Feb 2015 19:08:18
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  19:30:21  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

Tanthalas, after reading your reply I have to ask: did you actually read The Herald, or just a summary of events?

I am not being facetious here. It's just that your reply glosses over the events in the book, or ignores them all together.

For example: Candlekeep wasn't taken on by a lone agent from Shade.



Um yes it was. It was only when **** had hit the fan that reinforcements arrived, which begs the question of why more capable agents weren't sent there.

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Just because it happened doesn't mean somebody at WotC made a mistake, or that Ed is writing characters "wrong."



And again, the problem isn't that Shade fell, it's how it fell.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".

Edited by - Tanthalas on 28 Feb 2015 19:33:41
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  19:44:30  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message
Stories have tropes and stereotypes. People like certain narrative structures and norms. I am perfectly okay with parts of stories requiring suspension of belief...
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker

74 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  19:46:52  Show Profile  Visit A Publishing Lackey's Homepage Send A Publishing Lackey a Private Message
No it wasn't, Tanthalas. You'd better read the book again. The text makes it quite clear that there were many embedded agents in Candlekeep already. The one focused on was the guy sent to be the match to the existing fuse. If you're going to say anything about a book, good or bad, have the decency to pay attention when you're reading it.

And my views ARE true, Tanthalas. I'm a position to know and you aren't. Dismissing what I say as untruth is simply a child's way of winning an argument.

Shadowsoul, I am not speculating. I do know what I'm talking about.
Things vary over time (i.e. from book to book) depending on who the editor is (and there have been more than a few cases when editors changed mid-book; the original Spellfire had at least three editors plus "help" from the secretarial pool at TSR back then), time constraints, and so on, but what I did in my e-mail was lay out how Realms novels got written, in general, at TSR and at Wizards.
It's not very different than many other work-for-hire situations. Writers are hired to tell a story, and have to keep rewriting until the story is the way the publisher wants. That's a big difference from "I have this story in me, and I write it, and my agent offers it to publishers, and someone who likes the story offers to publish it" - - which is the norm in NON-work-for-hire situations.
So, while I'm at it, does anyone want anything else about "how things work" explained? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely asking.
Because I'm beyond tired of scribes posting this or that which makes it blatantly obvious to me that they don't understand the basics of how this sort of publishing works.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  19:52:26  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey

No it wasn't, Tanthalas. You'd better read the book again. The text makes it quite clear that there were many embedded agents in Candlekeep already. The one focused on was the guy sent to be the match to the existing fuse. If you're going to say anything about a book, good or bad, have the decency to pay attention when you're reading it.

And my views ARE true, Tanthalas. I'm a position to know and you aren't. Dismissing what I say as untruth is simply a child's way of winning an argument.

Shadowsoul, I am not speculating. I do know what I'm talking about.
Things vary over time (i.e. from book to book) depending on who the editor is (and there have been more than a few cases when editors changed mid-book; the original Spellfire had at least three editors plus "help" from the secretarial pool at TSR back then), time constraints, and so on, but what I did in my e-mail was lay out how Realms novels got written, in general, at TSR and at Wizards.
It's not very different than many other work-for-hire situations. Writers are hired to tell a story, and have to keep rewriting until the story is the way the publisher wants. That's a big difference from "I have this story in me, and I write it, and my agent offers it to publishers, and someone who likes the story offers to publish it" - - which is the norm in NON-work-for-hire situations.
So, while I'm at it, does anyone want anything else about "how things work" explained? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely asking.
Because I'm beyond tired of scribes posting this or that which makes it blatantly obvious to me that they don't understand the basics of how this sort of publishing works.



How do you know? Did you work for WoTc or do you presently?

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  20:20:50  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey

No it wasn't, Tanthalas. You'd better read the book again. The text makes it quite clear that there were many embedded agents in Candlekeep already. The one focused on was the guy sent to be the match to the existing fuse. If you're going to say anything about a book, good or bad, have the decency to pay attention when you're reading it.


You're right, I just checked and there were indeed more Shadovar agents at Candlekeep. This just leaves the issue that a cornerstone of Telamont's plan hinged on a single unimpressive agent.

quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey

And my views ARE true, Tanthalas. I'm a position to know and you aren't. Dismissing what I say as untruth is simply a child's way of winning an argument


But here you are wrong. Go back to my previous post and read it again.
I never said that editors don't influence books. However, your view that authors have no freedom when writing a novel is nonsensical at best, and the FR books are proof of it. Or are you really going to argue that the different writing styles that are found in FR books are solely due to editor interference?

Also: stop acting like you're the only one that has experience with interacting with editors and so you're here to educate the ignorant.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker

74 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  20:45:13  Show Profile  Visit A Publishing Lackey's Homepage Send A Publishing Lackey a Private Message
Yes, Shadowsoul, I have worked for two companies that worked closely with both TSR and Wizards, have worked at Wizards, and have worked for over three decades in publishing in North America. I DO know whereof I speak.

Tanthalas, what you are stating is my view is NOT my view. Stop setting up straw men and knocking them down. I told you how books are published, and you twisted what I said into something else.
And stop telling other people how to behave. It's the HEIGHT of rudeness.

I'm usually a lot nicer and gentler on these forums, but I decided it was time to be blunt and clear, in a thread that was getting out of hand with wild and gratuitous insults, misunderstandings about processes, and out-and-out character assassinations of Realms authors. There's a code of conduct for Candlekeep, people. Follow it.
Criticize what people do, not who they are or what you presume they were thinking or had as motives or are capable of.
And if you're going to comment, read carefully. Some of things said here seem to be rooted in what people want to see or believe when they read Realms novels, not what's actually on the pages.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  21:10:10  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey

Yes, Shadowsoul, I have worked for two companies that worked closely with both TSR and Wizards, have worked at Wizards, and have worked for over three decades in publishing in North America. I DO know whereof I speak.

Tanthalas, what you are stating is my view is NOT my view. Stop setting up straw men and knocking them down. I told you how books are published, and you twisted what I said into something else.
And stop telling other people how to behave. It's the HEIGHT of rudeness.

I'm usually a lot nicer and gentler on these forums, but I decided it was time to be blunt and clear, in a thread that was getting out of hand with wild and gratuitous insults, misunderstandings about processes, and out-and-out character assassinations of Realms authors. There's a code of conduct for Candlekeep, people. Follow it.
Criticize what people do, not who they are or what you presume they were thinking or had as motives or are capable of.
And if you're going to comment, read carefully. Some of things said here seem to be rooted in what people want to see or believe when they read Realms novels, not what's actually on the pages.



Wait wait. That's not what I asked. Working for two companies that worked close to TSR tells me nothing to be honest.

My wife has been editor of two magazines, a newspaper, and a trade union paper, as well as a reporter, and a columnist.

Now I could say that she knows a lot about editing but I'm not going to use her expertise in this because she has not worked for WoTc.

If your claim were true, then all FR novels would seem like they were written by the same person, but it's obvious they are not. Editors do not tell the authors what to write, the author writes then it is edited. The editor may say that such and such needs to changed or left out completely. There is a difference.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  21:22:26  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message
He also indicated he worked at Wizards.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  21:30:54  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

He also indicated he worked at Wizards.



That's grand but the person could work in the mailroom for all we know. I've heard these kind of people before making claims like this.

Unless you were an author employed by WoTc or one of those editors then I wouldn't say you are going to know exactly what the process is.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  21:46:51  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

If your claim were true, then all FR novels would seem like they were written by the same person, but it's obvious they are not. Editors do not tell the authors what to write, the author writes then it is edited. The editor may say that such and such needs to changed or left out completely. There is a difference.


The novels and characters obviously have different styles and tones because they are written by different authors. Ed's style is going to be different from another authors.

You are wrong, however, that editors do not tell authors what to write. Ed has talked about this multiple times over the years on these forums, but he has particularly said that he doesn't even really like writing Elminster novels. That is just what he is hired to write. Writers are given a certain outline of what they need to put in their novels, and this often dovetails with the metaplot unfolding in the Realms. Ed in particular.

Of all the authors, I think only RAS is given somewhat of a free hand in matters.

Do you honestly think Ed would have even included anything about Shade in his novel, particularly destroying it, if he hadn't been told to do so? Do you think Ed just thought this would be an awesome edition to his story, and just had to include it and convince the editors at WotC that it was a good idea? No. He was told that both Myth Drannor and Shade had to be in ruins by the end of his novel. He was told what plot elements he had to include. How he got them there was likely where he was given a freehand, but even then it still has to meet editorial approval.

...and once again, this is where everyone is missing the forest for the trees. This is why it is pointless to complain about the authors. WotC has full editorial control of what gets published for the Realms. If you think certain elements of the Realms novels suck (and I agree with the criticisms!) then you need to complain to WotC. They are the only ones who can fix it.

It is wasted energy and time going after the authors.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  21:58:01  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

If your claim were true, then all FR novels would seem like they were written by the same person, but it's obvious they are not. Editors do not tell the authors what to write, the author writes then it is edited. The editor may say that such and such needs to changed or left out completely. There is a difference.


The novels and characters obviously have different styles and tones because they are written by different authors. Ed's style is going to be different from another authors.

You are wrong, however, that editors do not tell authors what to write. Ed has talked about this multiple times over the years on these forums, but he has particularly said that he doesn't even really like writing Elminster novels. That is just what he is hired to write. Writers are given a certain outline of what they need to put in their novels, and this often dovetails with the metaplot unfolding in the Realms. Ed in particular.

Of all the authors, I think only RAS is given somewhat of a free hand in matters.

Do you honestly think Ed would have even included anything about Shade in his novel, particularly destroying it, if he hadn't been told to do so? Do you think Ed just thought this would be an awesome edition to his story, and just had to include it and convince the editors at WotC that it was a good idea? No. He was told that both Myth Drannor and Shade had to be in ruins by the end of his novel. He was told what plot elements he had to include. How he got them there was likely where he was given a freehand, but even then it still has to meet editorial approval.

...and once again, this is where everyone is missing the forest for the trees. This is why it is pointless to complain about the authors. WotC has full editorial control of what gets published for the Realms. If you think certain elements of the Realms novels suck (and I agree with the criticisms!) then you need to complain to WotC. They are the only ones who can fix it.

It is wasted energy and time going after the authors.



You can be told to destroy Shade but how it was done is the authors job and that is where the problem lies.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  22:02:46  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message
If I am an editor and I tell you that a villain must die, I am going to leave it up to you to kill that character off. There are ways of killing characters without making them look like fools.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker

74 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  22:07:40  Show Profile  Visit A Publishing Lackey's Homepage Send A Publishing Lackey a Private Message
Shadowsoul, do you truly believe this?
"If your claim were true, then all FR novels would seem like they were written by the same person,"
? REALLY?
The only time that happens, with multiple writers, is when there's a "house style" intended to make books seem to be written by the same person - - and even then, without heavy editing, most readers can usually tell different hands have been at work.
My point is that there is heavy control of the final result on the printed page - - and that for an IP licensed out so broadly, there has to be.
Meaning, if any author writes something that the editors or R&D (Research and Development, but for the Realms that means "the game guys") don't agree with or doesn't fit with the current game rules or with metaplots being hatched and shaped in-house, that "something" will get changed. So the way a particular author portrays particular characters has been approved and passed by the editors. No one has independence to "sneak anything past" anyone, from off-color jokes to monster abilities. If it's there on the page, multiple staff at the publisher were okay with it appearing there.
If Author X kills Character Y by Method Z, it was either approved during the outline process, and the final result tweaked in-house or by the author and approved, or it was assigned from the get-go. (You don't believe Salvatore had the freedom to kill Chewbacca in a Star Wars novel just because he felt like it, do you? And somehow snuck it past the editors?)

And no, I didn't work in the mailroom.

I worked for a large gaming company that worked with TSR as a licensee, then got bought by a conglomerate that worked with TSR and later WotC as a licensee, in both cases of creative properties belonging to TSR and later Wizards.
Meaning: we worked together with Wizards staffers on products published in game-related fiction lines, and in promoting and distribution.
I later worked for Wizards doing editing work, and left to work for a Hollywood studio doing pretty much the same sort of work for about six times the money.
I have worked for small presses, for the news and periodicals divisions of two multinationals, and I've worked at two of the major New York publishing houses.
And I DO know the Wizards editorial process.
As I said, it varies in detail over time and with the specific personnel. For example, Bill Larson in the old TSR days was three generations older than the young female Wizards editors; they essentially grew up in different worlds.
However, within the relatively short time Wizards has published Realms novels, the process has changed in scale and scope (the younger readers' book lines appearing and disappearing, the non-D&D-worlds books ditto, staff artists disappearing from the company) but has NOT, down at the "essential steps" levels I described, changed in the way things work.
Arguments and debates can be a lot more productive if everyone involved accepts the facts of the root conditions.
Shadowsoul, you posted: "Unless you were an author employed by WoTc or one of those editors then I wouldn't say you are going to know exactly what the process is."
You can say or not say whatever you please, but here's the truth: anyone at Wizards' distributors (Random House, at the moment) who had contact the Wizards of the Coast as part of their job (Random House is big and diverse) would know the basics of how the process works. Wizards is now quite a small company, the authors and editors aren't doing anything in secret that R&D and Brand don't know about, and this process I'm describing is more or less the norm for publishing houses handling work-for-hire. Almost every North American publisher publishes/distributes through Amazon or other distributors and needs to provide sell copy (catalog blurbs), these are always generated from outlines if the book isn't already finished, and I've merely outlined how things work.
Contrary to what you believe, that DOESN'T mean all books are going to read as if written by one person. It DOES mean that nothing in a book you read is in there because an author put it in there and the editors didn't notice it.
That's just the way it all works.
Don't believe me? Your loss, and your denials don't change what's true.

Edited by - A Publishing Lackey on 28 Feb 2015 22:11:39
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker

74 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  22:10:11  Show Profile  Visit A Publishing Lackey's Homepage Send A Publishing Lackey a Private Message
And as for this, Shadowsoul:

"If I am an editor and I tell you that a villain must die, I am going to leave it up to you to kill that character off."

Nope. Not in work-for-hire situations. Not if you want to still have that editing job the next day.
You're confusing traditional or "literary" publishing with work-for-hire. Different beast.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  22:54:25  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message
I am just going to echo everything A Publishing Lackey has written, and point out that it has been discussed here at Candlekeep in the past, by Ed himself as well as THO.

Here is just a mention of what it was like for Spellfire, one of Ed's Novels. This was by THO:

quote:
By: The Hooded One
Date: 23 Feb 2004

Oh, Malaug, you touched one of our collective sore points. Mr. Lowder has summarized the whole comedy of errors surrounding SPELLFIRE very well, so I won’t go into it again here. Let’s just say that editors (not Ed) did the final cutting of both the original and the newer version of Spellfire (which despite what it says on the cover, is SHORTER than the first published version). Over a third of the original book was dropped, and the easiest way to do that quickly was to remove an entire layer of villains throughout. This had many unfortunate consequences, but the two Ed hates the most are these:

1. With the Malaugrym impersonations and manipulations gone, the actions of the Zhentarim become foolish “Keystone Kops” farce, and not the struggles of dupes being pushed into things. How many times down the years have you heard criticism of the Zhents as being bumbling cardboard figures? Not in Ed’s original.

2. With the Malaugrym impersonations and manipulations and a key Knights of Myth Drannor “war council” scene gone, the Knights (with the half-hearted exceptions of Torm and Rathan, and over the anger of Sharantyr) seem to heartlessly abandon Narm and Shandril part way through the book, and even more importantly, so do Elminster and The Simbul. In Ed’s original, El and the Witch-Bitch (sorry, our players’ name for her) ordered the Knights to get back to their neglected other tasks, knowing full well that Torm and Rathan would disobey, and El and The Simbul fought the Malaugrym continuously “over the heads of” the unwitting Narm and Shandril. This was a key part of Ed’s intended message in the book: in the Realms, things are never quite as simple as they seem, and there are plots and surveillance and subplots behind everything and always on the go. Reading many TSR Realms books over the years, it’s my personal opinion that they’re aimed at a young male audience, and there’s a deliberate editorial preference for simple, linear “lots of action” storytelling. Whether that’s “better” or not than other styles and forms of stories is another debate, but I do know that it is at odds with what Ed was originally told by TSR, which was: “Show us your Realms. We’re thinking a book a year at least, showcasing all of your main characters and power groups. Take us through those forests, down those alleys, into those magic user’s towers. You’ve got a world here that’s broader than deeper than any we’ve ever seen; show it to us!”

I KNOW those words were said, because I stood there at an early GenCon and listened to them (coming from Jim Ward and Mike Dobson). That was the GenCon where Ed and Jeff Grubb walked past each other, each wondering if the other was the other, because they’d talked on the phone for a year but never met face-to-face. :}

The ‘why’ of the SPELLFIRE debacle had a lot to do, I believe, with a change in personnel at the Book Department, and a different idea of what Ed’s book should be than the above-quoted words. Which was fine, except that nobody got around to telling Ed this until it was all too late to fix EXCEPT by drastic editing and rewriting. If I recall correctly, one of Mr. Lowder’s first tasks when hired by TSR was to rewrite Ed’s character dialogue throughout the book.

However, over the years, Ed has slowly drifted to the view that trimming the Malaugrym may have been bad for SPELLFIRE, but was good for the Realms, because they are plane-hopping powerhouses (something like the royal family of Amber, in Roger Zelazny’s classic Amber novels), and if fans had concentrated on them like they do the gods (Ed calls it “chasing the power”), we might never have had products like the Volo’s Guides, grounded in the details of everyday life in the Realms.

So, yes, I wince almost as badly as Ed when I read the published version of SPELLFIRE (I got to read the original manuscript because Ed was also told, as he started writing it and we signed our release forms, “Make sure your players are happy with it”). But we’ve all moved on. As Ed put it, “I’ve got SO many other stories I want to tell. Shandril was invented for that novel, and this mania for ‘signature characters’ means I’ve never been able to do a Mirt novel, or a Simbul novel, or an Alustriel book, or--get the idea?”

Oh, yes, and one more thing: “Mr. Greenwood” is Ed’s DAD. Ed is “Ed.” :}
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  23:06:06  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message
I still don't believe an editor is going to tell the author to write out how a villain is to be defeated word for word.

If this is the case then you don't need different authors.

I don't believe that's how it's done. Yes editors remove stuff and have it replaced, but I don't think they control most of the books. Have they controlled a lot of "a" book, of course they have, but I still think authors have more power than some of you seem to believe, but the only people who truly know are the authors and editors and none of you here are them.

The full process is not known to us.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  23:14:32  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

I still don't believe an editor is going to tell the author to write out how a villain is to be defeated word for word.

If this is the case then you don't need different authors.

I don't believe that's how it's done. Yes editors remove stuff and have it replaced, but I don't think they control most of the books. Have they controlled a lot of "a" book, of course they have, but I still think authors have more power than some of you seem to believe, but the only people who truly know are the authors and editors and none of you here are them.

The full process is not known to us.


You're right. The authors and editors are in a position to know, and no, I am not one of them. However, I know all that I know thanks to the things Ed has shared over the years here at Candlekeep and elsewhere. If you disbelieve anything, you are more than free to go ask Ed how it works, and he will no doubt repeat for you everything you've been told here and has said in the past.

You can stomp your feet and pout all you want, but if you want things to change, then you need to direct your energies at WotC.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  23:19:39  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

I still don't believe an editor is going to tell the author to write out how a villain is to be defeated word for word.

If this is the case then you don't need different authors.

I don't believe that's how it's done. Yes editors remove stuff and have it replaced, but I don't think they control most of the books. Have they controlled a lot of "a" book, of course they have, but I still think authors have more power than some of you seem to believe, but the only people who truly know are the authors and editors and none of you here are them.

The full process is not known to us.


You're right. The authors and editors are in a position to know, and no, I am not one of them. However, I know all that I know thanks to the things Ed has shared over the years here at Candlekeep and elsewhere. If you disbelieve anything, you are more than free to go ask Ed how it works, and he will no doubt repeat for you everything you've been told here and has said in the past.

You can stomp your feet and pout all you want, but if you want things to change, then you need to direct your energies at WotC.



I don't stomp my feet and pout at anything. All you have shown is that some of it does happen which nobody has claimed didn't, but it's not like some of you portray.

If that were the case, then please tell me why the editors are picking on Ed when most all his villains act that way and other author's don't?

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker

74 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  23:24:23  Show Profile  Visit A Publishing Lackey's Homepage Send A Publishing Lackey a Private Message
The full process is not known to you, Shadowsoul, because you refuse to believe.
However, the full process is now known to everyone who reads this thread, because I've laid it out. And I have been an editor at Wizards of the Coast.
However, I believe Aldrick has made the right suggestion.
Go to Ed's thread, and ask Ed directly.
Keep your questions small-scope, so he can answer "Yes" or "No" without running into NDAs.
Then you'll have a definitive answer.
If you don't want to believe Ed Greenwood, then I'd suggest you stop posting on this particular topic because you really will be wasting everyone's time.
Remember, we have a Realms to love (and argue about) only because of that man.
Whom I consider one of the most talented writers I've ever worked with - - and I've worked with literally hundreds, from nobodies to very big names like Stephen King and Vince Flynn and Bertrice Small.
Like his Realms work or don't, but let's get past denying the facts of the writing business.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  23:34:39  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

...but it's not like some of you portray.


And what puts you in the position to say that? Are you a WotC editor or are you a Realms author? Are you claiming that people are deliberately misleading you?

Like I said, if you don't believe either A Publishing Lackey or myself, go ask Ed.
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2015 :  00:13:54  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey
Tanthalas, what you are stating is my view is NOT my view. Stop setting up straw men and knocking them down. I told you how books are published, and you twisted what I said into something else.
And stop telling other people how to behave. It's the HEIGHT of rudeness.


No, from the start my view has always been that I don't like how Ed portrays villains in his books, but several people here (including you) keep trying to turn the discussion into "people wanting villains to win" which was never my point. At all. Then you decided to go on a tangent about how editing works to somehow prove that Ed has no control over how he writes and blame it all on the editors, which as I've stated already, is nonsensical at best.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2015 :  00:21:27  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
It's the classic response you see across the Internet: "X is rubbish because I don't like it and would have done it differently. The writer of X is rubbish too if he comes up with this dross. What is wrong with that writer?!"

What always follows the "I didn't like X" is the implication that the writer of X is a bad writer and has no real understanding of how things ... should be. It's gets tiresome when you see it every 6 months or so. Especially when it's directed at Ed, who because of his generous presence here and being an integral part of the Forgotten Realms - because, duh, he created the place - is constantly assassinated for character and writing talent. The way I read some posts, the subtext is that Ed is a "bad writer". Again, attacks on the man rather than the work.

At least people could try and be professional about their critiques. Talk about times your suspension of disbelief wavered. Talk about narrative tension and plot-pacing. Comment on characters and how their actions in the novel didn't seem to match their motivations. Once you've done all that, stop typing. Your job is done. Do not undo all your hard work, by then attacking the author and their writing ability. You don't like the way an author writes? Stop reading their books. Don't use the anonymity of the Internet to spout forth attacks on people rather than their work. It's not classy and lessens the sense of community here at Candlekeep.

But then again, comments from the cheap seats with a hat firmly pulled down over your eyes are so very easy to do. Likely a habit that stretches across their spectrum of existence. Got to love cyberspace.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2015 :  00:24:12  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message
And just for full disclosure, if authors are not responsible for stuff that happens in books, and it's all the editor's fault, then what exactly do authors get credited with?

How exactly do you explain that readers can easily distinguish the work of different FR authors if everything is controlled and dictated by editors?

Greenwood, Cunningham, Grubb and Novak, Salvatore, Kemp, Byers, Denning, Evans, de Bie. So many people have their own favorite Realms authors, yet you would have us believe that their work is meaningless since what we're really reading is the work of the editor.

Just because editors control what eventually gets published that doesn't mean that the personal touch of each author isn't present in the final product. And, personally, I don't like the personal touch that Ed puts on his villains.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".

Edited by - Tanthalas on 01 Mar 2015 00:49:19
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2015 :  00:46:55  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

It's the classic response you see across the Internet: "X is rubbish because I don't like it and would have done it differently. The writer of X is rubbish too if he comes up with this dross. What is wrong with that writer?!"

What always follows the "I didn't like X" is the implication that the writer of X is a bad writer and has no real understanding of how things ... should be. It's gets tiresome when you see it every 6 months or so. Especially when it's directed at Ed, who because of his generous presence here and being an integral part of the Forgotten Realms - because, duh, he created the place - is constantly assassinated for character and writing talent. The way I read some posts, the subtext is that Ed is a "bad writer". Again, attacks on the man rather than the work.

At least people could try and be professional about their critiques. Talk about times your suspension of disbelief wavered. Talk about narrative tension and plot-pacing. Comment on characters and how their actions in the novel didn't seem to match their motivations. Once you've done all that, stop typing. Your job is done. Do not undo all your hard work, by then attacking the author and their writing ability. You don't like the way an author writes? Stop reading their books. Don't use the anonymity of the Internet to spout forth attacks on people rather than their work. It's not classy and lessens the sense of community here at Candlekeep.

But then again, comments from the cheap seats with a hat firmly pulled down over your eyes are so very easy to do. Likely a habit that stretches across their spectrum of existence. Got to love cyberspace.

-- George Krashos





And on the other side of the spectrum we have people like you that consider any criticism thrown Ed's way as a personal attack on him.

For the record: the style that Ed uses for his villains does not make him a bad writer, it just makes him a writer that uses a style that I personally don't like. You like it? Awesome for you. What's ridiculous here is how there are people trying to blame this on editors.

I have no doubt that Ed is exceptionally creative and talented to have been able to build a setting as great as the Forgotten Realms. But I'm also not going to put him on an altar and worship him like a god. His novels do have faults, mainly in how they have far too many superfluous plot points being juggled around. This is what I consider to be bad writing. Not his villains.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2015 :  00:47:27  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

It's the classic response you see across the Internet: "X is rubbish because I don't like it and would have done it differently. The writer of X is rubbish too if he comes up with this dross. What is wrong with that writer?!"

What always follows the "I didn't like X" is the implication that the writer of X is a bad writer and has no real understanding of how things ... should be. It's gets tiresome when you see it every 6 months or so. Especially when it's directed at Ed, who because of his generous presence here and being an integral part of the Forgotten Realms - because, duh, he created the place - is constantly assassinated for character and writing talent. The way I read some posts, the subtext is that Ed is a "bad writer". Again, attacks on the man rather than the work.

At least people could try and be professional about their critiques. Talk about times your suspension of disbelief wavered. Talk about narrative tension and plot-pacing. Comment on characters and how their actions in the novel didn't seem to match their motivations. Once you've done all that, stop typing. Your job is done. Do not undo all your hard work, by then attacking the author and their writing ability. You don't like the way an author writes? Stop reading their books. Don't use the anonymity of the Internet to spout forth attacks on people rather than their work. It's not classy and lessens the sense of community here at Candlekeep.

But then again, comments from the cheap seats with a hat firmly pulled down over your eyes are so very easy to do. Likely a habit that stretches across their spectrum of existence. Got to love cyberspace.

-- George Krashos



Nobody here has said that Ed is a bad writer.

But at the same time, all writers have places that people do not like because no matter how much you may like their writing, it's not perfect. I don't like how Ed portrays his villains, and I am not the only one.

If you can't handle am honest criticism then you honestly don't need to be writing, but I bet Ed doesn't so feel this way so he really doesn't need people like you to defend him.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2015 :  00:50:49  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

...but it's not like some of you portray.


And what puts you in the position to say that? Are you a WotC editor or are you a Realms author? Are you claiming that people are deliberately misleading you?

Like I said, if you don't believe either A Publishing Lackey or myself, go ask Ed.



The proof is in all the books and like Tanthalas has said, you can distinguish the various writings of the various authors. If this wasn't the case, then all the novels would be very much the same.

The claims do not make sense to be completely honest.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2015 :  01:30:21  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

And on the other side of the spectrum we have people like you that consider any criticism thrown Ed's way as a personal attack on him.

Writing knee jerk responses to every post you disagree with can turn you into a liar pretty quick.

That, and we're at a point in this thread where arguing for the sake of arguing serves no purpose.

Think and breathe before you post. It'll save you trouble down the road.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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froglegg
Learned Scribe

317 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2015 :  01:36:51  Show Profile Send froglegg a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog

Any imaginary character can defeat any other if the author desires it = P


And the truth shall set you free!




John

Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!

On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale

The Old Grey Box gets better with age!
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