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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
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Posted - 18 Jul 2014 :  10:08:36  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I am wondering how shar is able to devour whole worlds through her shadowstorm besides gods are not being allowed to directly interfer in the material plane. I know there are a lot of exceptions where they do, but this seems like a very huge one to me.
Also why don't the other gods stop here form killing all thei followers directly?

What do you think?

CorellonsDevout
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USA
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Posted - 21 Jul 2014 :  19:50:47  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is a good question. I don't really have an answer, but maybe it's because of who Shar is? I mean, she devours worlds, and since that is her "role", if you will, then she isn't stopped? That's probably a cheap assumption, but I really don't know.

I am curious though as to why she was able to devour so many. Did the forces of those other worlds (be they deities or something else), try and stop her? As far as FR goes, the gods did try and stop her, but you're right, it wasn't directly. It was through -their- followers.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
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Posted - 22 Jul 2014 :  00:18:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shar acts through her mortal intermediaries just like the other gods

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 22 Jul 2014 :  00:51:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the Realms, deities cannot interfere directly. Who is to say this rule is common to all spheres?

Though I do wonder why Shar would pay attention to anything outside of Realmspace... She was born there, and if she nukes it, she can dwindle away in peace like she wants. Spreading out to other worlds just means more work.

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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
584 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2014 :  20:51:59  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

That is a good question. I don't really have an answer, but maybe it's because of who Shar is? I mean, she devours worlds, and since that is her "role", if you will, then she isn't stopped? That's probably a cheap assumption, but I really don't know.


Well if you argue that way you could also say that its other gods job to prevent her from destroying worlds and thus they should also be able to interfer directly.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Shar acts through her mortal intermediaries just like the other

Not quite. She only needs her herold (Mask in the case of Toril) to
start the process and after devouring him she is able to enter a world and destroy it.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

In the Realms, deities cannot interfere directly. Who is to say this rule is common to all spheres?

Though I do wonder why Shar would pay attention to anything outside of Realmspace... She was born there, and if she nukes it, she can dwindle away in peace like she wants. Spreading out to other worlds just means more work.


Hmm that may explain the thousands of other worlds she is said to have devoured. But it still leaves the question why she was able to and nearly destroyed Toril

Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 22 Jul 2014 20:52:36
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Ayrik
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Canada
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Posted - 22 Jul 2014 :  22:49:55  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Although I enjoyed the trilogy, I'm still of the opinion that Shar just ain't a powerful enough entity to threaten the cosmos. Yes, she has apparently destroyed at least one other world (although I really don't see why, but whatever). Then again, she's demonstrated a disappointing lack of ultimate power in her many-times-foiled plots to destroy the Realms. Stopped cold by a single competitor (Lathander), how could she possibly succeed against an alliance of deities opposing her? And surely she cannot be as powerful (or more powerful) than Ao in the Realms? A very mediocre little greater goddess - I'd even give old Asmodeus better odds of destroying entire worlds, what is a little Spellplague compared to gating in countless devils and perhaps turning Toril into another battleground of the eternal Blood War?

[/Ayrik]
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Demzer
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873 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2014 :  08:54:22  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh c'mon Shar is a deity of loss and despair, she doesn't want to win, she just enjoys the struggle. Of course she wants to destroy all the multiverse and all the infinite worlds, that keeps her plans into the "impossible to reach" category. She is genuinely aroused by this impossibility.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2014 :  12:42:21  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Demzer. Frankly if she just wanted to dwindle away to nothing she could easily find a much easier way to do it than her frankly ridiculous plan to exterminate the cosmos.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2014 :  20:06:29  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed explained it to me this way: Shar feeds on loss and despair. She particularly prizes the loss and despair of her servants: mortals she has directed, guided, and empowered. She wants them to succeed for a time, in some ways, the better to savor their falls. She feeds on the loss and despair of other mortals, too, but above all craves the loss and despair of those she has come to know personally, and manipulate or command, and deceive for a time with successes.
From our POV, this may seem insane, but that is what Shar is, so the "failure" of her plans and her pawns should come as a surprise to no one. She's VERY good at cozening even wise and experienced mortals.
love to all,
THO

Edited by - The Hooded One on 23 Jul 2014 20:54:52
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
584 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2014 :  21:23:44  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Ed explained it to me this way: Shar feeds on loss and despair. She particularly prizes the loss and despair of her servants: mortals she has directed, guided, and empowered. She wants them to succeed for a time, in some ways, the better to savor their falls. She feeds on the loss and despair of other mortals, too, but above all craves the loss and despair of those she has come to know personally, and manipulate or command, and deceive for a time with successes.
From our POV, this may seem insane, but that is what Shar is, so the "failure" of her plans and her pawns should come as a surprise to no one. She's VERY good at cozening even wise and experienced mortals.
love to all,
THO


Thank you for your answer, but can you shed some light into why shar is able to (or allowed to) incarnate on a world to destroy it while other gods can't interfer directly?

Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 24 Jul 2014 21:24:09
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  02:49:20  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When has Shar acted directly in the Realms?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  04:28:19  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You mean aside from killing Mystra and trying to take over the Weave?

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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
584 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  14:00:04  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

When has Shar acted directly in the Realms?


She didn't but it was highly implied that she would have done so (like she did on countless other worlds) when the cycle of night would have been completed as she planed.

I guess its possible that ao would have stepped in in the last moment and prevented her from destroying toril if masks plan failed, but imho if that would have been a real possibility Shar wouldn't even had tried because she knows Aos rules like all other gods.

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

You mean aside from killing Mystra and trying to take over the Weave?


Well that wasn't acting directly on Toril, so it didn't break any rules
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

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Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  17:28:38  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not directly on Toril, no, but it was still "in the Realms". Maybe I misunderstood what GK meant.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Blueblade
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Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  18:47:58  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, but how do we know for sure Shar devoured worlds? In other words, can our source be mistaken/have swallowed Sharran propaganda? Or misunderstood exaggerations or metaphor for fact? I.e. the old Sumerian "floods washed away the entire world," meaning THEIR world, their little corner of the globe...not literally the entire world. Many deities, and their clergy in particular, trumpet claims for their deity that far outstrip the truth.
BB
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
584 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  21:06:54  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rivalen (and if I remember correctly Cale and Riven) visited such a world shortly before getting sucked into the void.

Also after Riven absorbed his part of masks essence he thinks about the "countless worlds Shar destroyed in the multiverse". Imho there is no indication so far that this is untrue.

Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 25 Jul 2014 21:07:17
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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
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Posted - 26 Jul 2014 :  11:46:14  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Without having read that particular passage again, I guess Rivalen's source of knowledge about those "countless worlds" is Shar,and thus it is entirely plausible that she lied to him. Or at least exaggerated.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 26 Jul 2014 :  15:20:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is it explained anywhere what Shar gains from destroying worlds outside of Realmspace, or why she is even paying attention to things beyond Realmspace? I just don't get why she would make her own end goal of returning to nothing that much more difficult by spreading herself around.

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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
584 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2014 :  20:36:24  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Thieran
Its Riven not Rivalen, so he didn't get his info from Shar and I guess after becoming devine he was able to confirm this by himself.

@Wooly
The only explanation I remember is that it was said multiple times that Shar is craving towards the end of all things. I guess its her nature as a god.


PS: Usually I try not to think to much about the deeper meaning of FR novels but just enjoy reading them because I think many things are not very well thought through in combination with other lore. But sometimes it gets me...
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 26 Jul 2014 :  22:10:12  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rivalen and Riven are two different people, though both are from the Cale books. Riven is the new Mask (which I have mixed feelings about), and Rivalen was one of the Shadovar, and a Chosen of Shar, and privy to at least some of her plans. Therefsore, I think Thieran was indeed referring to Rivalen (please correct me if I am wrong).

Sweet water and light laughter
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
584 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2014 :  22:34:59  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes I know who both are. But I think Thieran was referring to my previous post where I talked about Riven knowing about Shar destroying worlds and mixing him up with Rivalen
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2014 :  00:47:35  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Wooly Furball
Is it explained anywhere what Shar gains from destroying worlds outside of Realmspace, or why she is even paying attention to things beyond Realmspace? I just don't get why she would make her own end goal of returning to nothing that much more difficult by spreading herself around.
It is never explained, to my knowledge.

A logical possibility (really the only one I think might be plausible) is that Realms-Shar is some sort of aspect or manifestation of a greater Cosmos-Shar entity. That is, the Shar we know was "born" into Ao's Realmspace, but (whether aware of it or not, consciously or even instinctively) she is only part of a vastly greater Shar-being who has in past ages actively destroyed and consumed many other worlds.

Powerful deities of entropy, chaos, darkness, destruction, and oblivion exist in most published D&D settings; they could all be functionally interchangeable with Shar. 2E Savage Coast material has an immortal who is basically identical to Shar.

Perhaps, more subtly, every world eventually has one Power (God/Goddess, Primordial, Immortal, Whatever) who is inclined towards chaos-and-destruction sorts of stuff, and after achieving adequate success such beings (super)naturally "evolve" into Shar-like roles. What greater accomplishment for such beings that the destruction and oblivion of the entire universe?

[/Ayrik]
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2014 :  03:29:42  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

Yes I know who both are. But I think Thieran was referring to my previous post where I talked about Riven knowing about Shar destroying worlds and mixing him up with Rivalen



Ah okay I'm sorry I misunderstood. Still though, I think both Rivalen and Riven had some knowledge of Shar's doings.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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Posted - 27 Jul 2014 :  05:37:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Wooly Furball
Is it explained anywhere what Shar gains from destroying worlds outside of Realmspace, or why she is even paying attention to things beyond Realmspace? I just don't get why she would make her own end goal of returning to nothing that much more difficult by spreading herself around.
It is never explained, to my knowledge.

A logical possibility (really the only one I think might be plausible) is that Realms-Shar is some sort of aspect or manifestation of a greater Cosmos-Shar entity. That is, the Shar we know was "born" into Ao's Realmspace, but (whether aware of it or not, consciously or even instinctively) she is only part of a vastly greater Shar-being who has in past ages actively destroyed and consumed many other worlds.

Powerful deities of entropy, chaos, darkness, destruction, and oblivion exist in most published D&D settings; they could all be functionally interchangeable with Shar. 2E Savage Coast material has an immortal who is basically identical to Shar.

Perhaps, more subtly, every world eventually has one Power (God/Goddess, Primordial, Immortal, Whatever) who is inclined towards chaos-and-destruction sorts of stuff, and after achieving adequate success such beings (super)naturally "evolve" into Shar-like roles. What greater accomplishment for such beings that the destruction and oblivion of the entire universe?



One thing that separates Shar from other deities of destruction, though, is that for most deities of destruction, it's the act of destruction itself that they are all about. To them, if it exists, it must be destroyed. With Shar, though, the destruction is just the means to an end -- her desired end being a return to nothingness.

While destruction of everything is a way to get there, the same goal could be reached by simply causing things not to exist. Unmaking them, so that they were never created, perhaps, or sending them elsewhere, so that they no longer exist here.

Shar was happy until there was something else going on in Realmspace. And then she wasn't happy. If everything in Realmspace could be removed and the sphere isolated from everything else, then she could go back to nothingness -- and whether or not there was anything elsewhere wouldn't matter.

That's why I don't understand why Shar would extend herself anywhere beyond Realmspace, because it makes it harder for her to return to the nothingness that originally existed.

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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
293 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2014 :  19:58:55  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

Yes I know who both are. But I think Thieran was referring to my previous post where I talked about Riven knowing about Shar destroying worlds and mixing him up with Rivalen



You were right, I indeed read 'Rivalen' where you wrote 'Riven', but I cannot find the passage you are referring to either. Can you point me to the right page?
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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
293 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2014 :  20:00:28  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Rivalen and Riven are two different people, though both are from the Cale books. Riven is the new Mask (which I have mixed feelings about), and Rivalen was one of the Shadovar, and a Chosen of Shar, and privy to at least some of her plans. Therefsore, I think Thieran was indeed referring to Rivalen (please correct me if I am wrong).



I was indeed referring to Rivalen, but I had misread _Jarlaxle_'s post. But maybe he has confused the two himself? Let's see what passage he was referring to.
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
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Posted - 08 Aug 2014 :  20:54:47  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On page 31 of the godborn Riven is pondering over mask, shar and the cycle of night.
Some excerpts:
quote:
the prophet who started her cycle of night, a devine process that had repeated itself countless times across the multiverse, and had, in the process, destroyed countless worlds.

quote:
Cycles of night had left the multiverse pockmarked with holes. Voids of nothingness were the footprints of shar left as she stalked through reality. Riven knew the amount of life she'd destroyed and it nauseated even him.


There are other sources of this in godborn and earlier books.
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Arcanus
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Posted - 08 Aug 2014 :  22:58:19  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How come we don't hear of selune creating worlds? As her sisters opposite then surely she should be trying to counter her sister by creating?
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2014 :  00:03:39  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The magnitude of power commanded by these goddess depends greatly on which D&D edition defines the baseline reference.

In 4E Realmslore, Shar basically destroyed Mystra and thus exerted her power over (apparently) the entire D&D cosmos. But in the 2E era, Shar and Mystra (and Selune) were potent only in the Realms, they were just another little group of goddesses from another fairly-interesting world in the grand order of things, they could hardly impose their powers on other worlds and almost certainly could not do so effectively if opposed by the local deities in charge. Imagine old Zeus commanding the entire Olympian pantheon (well, most of it, anyways) to battle this annoying Shar person who plots to release the old titans and overthrow his world. Imagine old Odin banging the war drums of his Aesir and calling forth the warriors of Asgard to punish a foreign power named Shar because she dares attempt to cut down his cosmic tree.

Of course, the 4E lore is official canon and technically supercedes any previous canon which contraindicates it, at least until it is itself superceded by 5E (and subsequent edition) lore. So, I suppose Selune could indeed create entire worlds, just as Shar seems to have destroyed others.

I prefer to think in terms of observer context - that is, the actions of Shar which brought about the Spellplague are explained to us from the viewpoint of characters in the Realms, to them the Realms is the world and the center of the universe. I would think that if 4E lore were written from a less-biased viewpoint (such as, say, that of characters in Sigil, perhaps), the grand world-shattering omnipotence of the goddesses would be seen more as a local affair. The world-shaping Cataclysms of Krynn were awesome and horrible events - but they arent of much concern to peoples of the Realms. The eternal Blood War of the fiends (and the countless battlefield worlds consumed, subjugated, or destroyed by it) is also an awesome affair of cosmic proportions - yet it, too, is a curiosity of little import to denizens of the Realms. We know the dark power and ambitions of Mephistopheles and Asmodeus only because they have eaten godlings from the Realms, we fear the evil of Lolth because we have seen the sufferings inflicted by her drow servitors in the Realms. We are hardly impressed by other archfiends and godlike beings like (for example) Orcus, Gorgon, Beelzubub, Vecna, or Pazuzu simply because their interests havent yet significantly intersected Realmslore.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Aug 2014 00:15:07
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 09 Aug 2014 :  05:04:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Destruction is far easier than creation.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2014 :  05:54:15  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A statement like that borders on philosophy, religion, metaphysics, and McDonald's. But then, what doesn't border on a McDonald's these days? Perhaps McD's is a sort of transitive demiplane which slowly encroaches every corner of every world it touches ... gah, I shouldn't have eaten two Big Macs, makes me giddy and growly.

Destruction might be easier than creation in our own cosmos because, as we understand things, the universe has fundamental entropy. A fancy way of saying that particles have a tendency to diffuse, complex things tend to break apart into simpler components, natural laws and forces will (given time) eventually destroy and erode everything in existence into bits of particles so small they can't even be called dust, let alone be called atoms. The classic theological explanation is that a creator imposed order unto chaos, turned random noise into the machinery of a living universe.

But in a fantasy universe, a magical one, entropy is likely reversed. This is a fancy way of saying that simple things have a tendency to form complex things, nothing is ever inert, there is an inherent tendency for self-structure to continually combine groups of the tiniest most isolated particles into bigger constructs, for such constructs to form into parts of spells and worlds and planes and the intelligences and superintelligences and gods which inhabit them. It might be argued that in such a cosmos order just comes naturally, given enough time the entirety of existence would unify into some harmonious godlike superexistence (assuming it hasn't already). The act of destruction, imposing chaos onto order, would be like swimming upstream - it can be done, but to do it well, on a meaningful magnitude, with lasting results, would take an immense expenditure of energy, resources, and effort. In this version of the cosmos, the entirety of existence would only exist (in an unnaturally random and dynamic state) because a creator being imposed chaos onto order.

Given this cosmic paradigm, Shar might be the ill-fated underdog while Mystra (and her Weave) would be a growing, regenerating, replicating, unified, inescapable tapestry in the self-weaving fabric of the universe. No matter how hard you try to kill a Mystra, no matter how persistent or how much force you apply, you only inflict a wound which will heal itself over time, at best you might utterly destroy a Mystra for a while before another forms itself into the hole.

Methinks the Realms is loosely modelled after our own world, in a way, which means rules of order-vs-chaos in the Realms would be not entirely unlike our own. But perhaps this isn't the case? We don't really know, and we really shouldn't assume. Especially since we understand the Realms is part of a cosmos filled with Outer Planes, themselves engaged in an eternal battle/balance of diametrically opposed axiomatic alignments. I argue that divination and prophecy in the Realms is strong proof of a deterministic native-order, free will only exists by the providence of greater beings and requires a constant battle (against the narrator, if nothing else!) to continue existing on a path of its own choosing. Our universe disallows such nonsense, can't have accurate prophecy simply because completely accurate knowledge of both present and future conditions in timespace would unavoidably violate either Causality or the Uncertainty Principle. We can (and must!) do as we will, our prophecies are only pretentious prediction.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Aug 2014 06:27:46
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