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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Nov 2020 : 00:18:42
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Khajiti mythology has a very different view of Meridia:
"Merid-Nunda is a cold spirit, born of light without love. She is intellect without wisdom, knowledge without purpose. She is the consort of demons, and some songs blame her for orchestrating the death of mighty Lorkhaj. When Merid-Nunda dared assault the Lattice with intent (being the first to do so, alongside Dagon and Molagh), Azurah struck her down before the Varliance Gate and dragged her away from it. She then cast Merid-Nunda into the Void and bound her there with mirrors. The nomads say she has since escaped."
There's also a part of Khajiti mythology where Bal's nameless wife freed Dagon from him.
ESO's depiction of Meridia lends a lot of credence to Khajiti belief. Even the Bretons support this idea, considering that she's called, among other things, 'Lady of Greed'. There's the hilarity behind the the attack on Coldharbour; the Hollow City is an unwanted intrusion into Coldharbour, and given that the realms are parts of their prince, Meridia is literally raping the King of Rape.
There's also the supposed theory that Bal raped Lamae to tick off Meridia, not Arkay. Aversion to light isn't really a characteristic of undead except for vampires, after all.
Basically, Bal and Meridia act like stereotypical bitter exes. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2020 : 01:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Khajiti mythology has a very different view of Meridia:
"Merid-Nunda is a cold spirit, born of light without love. She is intellect without wisdom, knowledge without purpose. She is the consort of demons, and some songs blame her for orchestrating the death of mighty Lorkhaj. When Merid-Nunda dared assault the Lattice with intent (being the first to do so, alongside Dagon and Molagh), Azurah struck her down before the Varliance Gate and dragged her away from it. She then cast Merid-Nunda into the Void and bound her there with mirrors. The nomads say she has since escaped."
There's also a part of Khajiti mythology where Bal's nameless wife freed Dagon from him.
ESO's depiction of Meridia lends a lot of credence to Khajiti belief. Even the Bretons support this idea, considering that she's called, among other things, 'Lady of Greed'. There's the hilarity behind the the attack on Coldharbour; the Hollow City is an unwanted intrusion into Coldharbour, and given that the realms are parts of their prince, Meridia is literally raping the King of Rape.
There's also the supposed theory that Bal raped Lamae to tick off Meridia, not Arkay. Aversion to light isn't really a characteristic of undead except for vampires, after all.
Basically, Bal and Meridia act like stereotypical bitter exes.
Well, mythology is in The Elder Scrolls intentionally biased. Khajiit mythology for example it also frames Mephala as far more benevolent:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Wandering_Spirits
Meridia being behind Lorkhan death, and leading, also contradicts all other accounts of his death. It's also mentioned "some" Khajiit songs mention it, so not even probably majority.
One also would have to ignore all the positive and what seems empathetic things she done in ESO itself, to say the Khajiit view of Meridia is the more/most correct view of her.
(Not saying it doesn't have truth in it, but it doesn't mean it's 100% right)
With Molag Bal, I do think it's possible he was in love with Meridia, who I think rejected him, hence it warped him from the Ruddy-Man to who he is today. (I'm not even the only one who noticed this, even if my view is a bit different):
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/6s6sr8/theory_molag_bal_is_in_love_with_meridia/
I mean, think about it - Molag Bal's whole thing, is to conquer, corrupt and subjugate Nirn and mortals...which would fit is he wants to do it, to spite Lorkhan out jealousy and hatred, and to show his superiority.
I mean he even is the one Daedric Prince who is conformed to have discovered how to achieve CHIM (which he teached Vivec, or maybe rather Vivec seduced him to discover it), which learned to possibly suprass Lorkhan, even if Molag Bal ultimatelly couldn't achieve it.
This would also explain why they hate each other with Boethiah - Boethiah being a major Lorkhan fangirl/fanboy, would see such desire to spite on Lorkhan legacy and usurp it, as disdainful and anathema.
I also viewed Meridia's interractions rowards Molag Bal as not one of an ex, but that's my interpretation (though I believe Molag Bal loved her, at least once, but more on it latter). And the fact both Molag Bal's wife and Meridia attacked the Lunar Lattice, may suggest they could be a couple - though seeing Meridia defied him, and freed Mehrunes Dagon, she didn't have positive feelings towards Bal, at least at that point already.
If anything, I think Meridia might be as probably (in part?) a spiteful ex towards Lorkhan, seeing even Khajiit mythology you mentioned, especially seeing Michael Kirkbride (who basically created half of the lore about Meridia before ESO, including her being once a Magna-Ge) himself strongly implies he wrote to had been a romantic relation between two, maybe viewing he betrayed her, possibly during creation or latter.
With Meridia violating Molag Bal with Hollow City, one could see it as such...if not for the fact it was a settlement (from Nirn) devoted to Meridia, but Molag Bal absorbed into Coldhabour, but Meridia continued to shield it with her power. And request to help the denizens.
So it's not such a clear cut situation, as with Meridia "literally" violating Bal.
It is notable it is implied Coldhabor might had been once her Realm (as state by Mankar Camoran - And yes, it might seem Mankar is crazy and wrong on many things, but it was implied he was right on a lot of things.), as paradoxical as it seems - again a Daedric Prince might sever oneself from their realm as seen with Jygglag, and also be bound with one.
And it is implied Molag Bal only came to rule Coldharbor after he stopped being the Ruddy Man.
There is also possible Lyg was Coldhabour when Meridia ruled it (or part of Lyg):
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/3ikdvw/lyg_coldharbor_back_when_meridia_controlled_it/
(Also with a discussion about a Daedric Prince losing a Realm, and if and how could be possible)
(of course it's also possible Molag Bal and Meridia somehow co-ruled Coldhabour, if she was his wife in his realm? or maybe he took Meridia as his wife, when he took over Coldhabour? Especially that Khajiit mythology suggests the Colored Rooms were created as a prison for Meridia by Azura...)
Another possibility, is that Molag Bal, and Meridia were once one being, especially that such things happened in TES (Shezarrines, Sheogorath and Jygglag, Aka and Lorkhan, possibly Padomay and Anu - which Khajiit mythology also mentions as married and once lovers, possibly Zenithar and Stendarr, possibly many or all regional variants of Aedra to some degree, and basically confirmed with many versions of Aka - and each dragon being a fragmentation of him). |
Edited by - Baltas on 22 Nov 2020 03:12:16 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2020 : 04:24:55
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That's the reddit post I was thinking of. That 'Bal and Meridia were one and the same' thing is interesting too, since there's a theory that Mannimarco didn't just ascend via the mantella, he did so by mantling Arkay. it's also implied that Jyggalag and Sheogorath are facets of the same Prince.
Bal is...an interesting one. Keep in mind that he respects the Vestige for standing against him; the Lord of Rape and Domination actually likes you more if you have a backbone, even if it's against him.
And, to be fair to the Khajit, Mephala's considered to be one of the Three Good Daedra by the Dunmer. Admittedly, it's not because she's actually capital-G Good, but because she's one of the cornerstones of their civilization by introducing secret murder to keep order.
The question is also whether Vivec actually did achieve CHIM. Vivec is the ultimate liar, one who justifies himself vial allegory and sermons. The difference between him and Almalexia is that Ammy is genuinely delusional. When the King of Worms, of all beings, thinks you're a bunch of posers, there are problems somewhere. The Vivec duality becomes spectacularly interesting when you put it into context with Molag Bal's title among the Dunmer; the implication being that Bal raped Vivec as part of a deal, and the Abused becomes the Abuser when he rapes Azura during his trial.
Because, seriously, everything screwy about the Dunmer is purely on Vivec and Almalexia (and Sotha). Azura punished the Dunmer with a tan and free fire resistance, but Vivec instituted a religious police, kept a meteorite hovering over his city and then didn't notice Barbas all but delivering Morrowind to Vile until the Vestige got involved. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 22 Nov 2020 04:30:19 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2020 : 05:24:55
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Learned Scribe PattPlays,
Meridia-Daedric Prince of Life Energies is my vote. :)
Did you vote? If so, who for?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2020 : 19:12:01
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
That's the reddit post I was thinking of. That 'Bal and Meridia were one and the same' thing is interesting too, since there's a theory that Mannimarco didn't just ascend via the mantella, he did so by mantling Arkay. it's also implied that Jyggalag and Sheogorath are facets of the same Prince.
Bal is...an interesting one. Keep in mind that he respects the Vestige for standing against him; the Lord of Rape and Domination actually likes you more if you have a backbone, even if it's against him.
And, to be fair to the Khajit, Mephala's considered to be one of the Three Good Daedra by the Dunmer. Admittedly, it's not because she's actually capital-G Good, but because she's one of the cornerstones of their civilization by introducing secret murder to keep order.
The question is also whether Vivec actually did achieve CHIM. Vivec is the ultimate liar, one who justifies himself vial allegory and sermons. The difference between him and Almalexia is that Ammy is genuinely delusional. When the King of Worms, of all beings, thinks you're a bunch of posers, there are problems somewhere. The Vivec duality becomes spectacularly interesting when you put it into context with Molag Bal's title among the Dunmer; the implication being that Bal raped Vivec as part of a deal, and the Abused becomes the Abuser when he rapes Azura during his trial.
Because, seriously, everything screwy about the Dunmer is purely on Vivec and Almalexia (and Sotha). Azura punished the Dunmer with a tan and free fire resistance, but Vivec instituted a religious police, kept a meteorite hovering over his city and then didn't notice Barbas all but delivering Morrowind to Vile until the Vestige got involved.
With the connection between Jyggalag and Sheogorath I agree - FudgeMuppet suggested Jyggalag even before his transformation into Sheogorath, was the Prince of Madness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eptk--c8ZHs
It is possible that Mannimarco mantled or somehow "partly" mantled Arkay - hence his divine incarnation is now a "moon" (The Revenant, the Necromancer's Moon) orbiting Arkay.
I mean, he wanted to pull that trick on Molag Bal.
Yup Molag Bal respecting people having a backbone, even defying him, has sense - again, he he is the Prince of Domination.
With Mephala, or rather Mefala she has a much more positive role in Khajiit lore - it is possible those aspects are part of her sphere (seeing they are a more positive spin on parts of her normal persumed sphere), especially seeing Mephala shere is indeed obscured.
But it also works with Meridia, with Khajiit Merid-Nunda not being a complete presentation of Meridia as a whole. With evn Khajiit mythology not being sure of she was involved in Lorkhan murder - ie "and some songs blame her for orchestrating the death of mighty Lorkhaj".
About connections between Et'Ada, Khajiit mythology also is another one, that shows Malacath and Arkay as the same, even more directly so than Nord mythology - from the Adversial Spirits:
"Orkha. A demon that followed Boethra back through the Many Paths. It spoke in curses of affliction and knew no other words. Lorkhaj, Khenarthi, and Boethra battled the demon in the ancient songs, but Orkha could only be banished and would not die. Khajiit understand that Orkha and others of his ilk serve as tests along the Path, and nothing more."
And it's not the only connection between Arkay and Malacath/Trinimac..., but that's another discussion.
With Vivec, the abused, becoming the abuser is a core part of his story (again, he was raped since early childhood by his father, which lead to Vivec, even before meet Nerevar, a drug dealing murderer.)
I also don't deny he is responsible for the destruction that afflicted Vvardenfell and rest of Morrowind - he outright admitted he keeps the Dunmer as hostages with it - from 36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 33:
quote:
When Nerevar returned, he saw the frozen comet above his lord's city. He asked whether or not Vivec wanted it removed.
'I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction.'
So yeah, blaming Azura for it is silly at best.
With Vivec achieving CHIM, outside of Michael Kirkbride's semi-canon works, there is a lot of implication he achieved it - seeing he knows and wrote down what it is, and knew how it connected to Lorkhan's motivations, as well as having a very deep understanding of the settings metaphysics, most et'Ada don't have, as well as seeing the intentional parallels between him and Tiber Septim (the other person said to have achieved CHIM).
It's also possible Molag Bal himself mantled, or partly mantled a god, possibly Meridia - hence he seemingly predicted Mannimarco mantling him - some sources imply as the Ruddy-Man, he was a king not god among the Dreugh, and indeed even Molag Bal's head's design in ESO, looks like that of the land Dreugh, but not crustecean/athropod:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/File:Detail_of_Land_Dreugh_Concept_Art.png
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/pl/wiki/Plik:Molag_Bal_(Online).jpg
This could explain them being married in Khajiit lore, and seemingly sharing once a plane of Oblivion there, as well as why Meridia is suggested to had been the original Prince of Coldhabour. (As I mentioned, similarly in Khajiit mythology, Anu and Padomay are also stated to had been married and having children, which also isn't literally true in most mythologies...
And if Molag Bal's mantled Meridia to be with her (kinda like Hermaphroditus and Salmacis) and it would fit his nature as the King of Rape, and him knowing how to achieve CHIM - after all CHIM is love, including selfish love, as well "reaching heaven by violence".
It also would fit the theory Meridia used Mehrunes' Razor/Mehrunes as the Razor to sever herself from Molag Bal.
Of course, this is just another theory  |
Edited by - Baltas on 22 Nov 2020 21:31:31 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2020 : 02:19:48
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So far, I've pretty much set the Princes as such:
Azura - TN, good tendencies
Boethiah - CE
Clavicus Vile - NE
Hermaeus Mora - TN, evil tendencies
Hircine - CN
Malacath - CN, LG as Trinimac
Mehrunes Dagon - CE
Mephala - NE
Meridia - LE
Molag Bal - LE
Namira - NE
Nocturnal - CN
Peryite - LN, evil tendencies
Sanguine - CN
Sheogorath - CE, CN tendencies
Vaermina - NE |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2020 : 13:30:55
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
So far, I've pretty much set the Princes as such:
Azura - TN, good tendencies
Boethiah - CE
Clavicus Vile - NE
Hermaeus Mora - TN, evil tendencies
Hircine - CN
Malacath - CN, LG as Trinimac
Mehrunes Dagon - CE
Mephala - NE
Meridia - LE
Molag Bal - LE
Namira - NE
Nocturnal - CN
Peryite - LN, evil tendencies
Sanguine - CN
Sheogorath - CE, CN tendencies
Vaermina - NE
Well, I'm a probbly getting boring, as I would agree with most, but I disagree about Meridia, who I think would be on LE/LN border, maybe even Lawful Neutral (with or without evil tendencies).
As I think by the same logic other Daedric Princes should have a more visibly evil alignment - for example Nocturnal - whose actions caused a lot of death and destruction in ESO, and it's hard to tell if she wouldn't break reality in her attempt to become an infinite, supreme being controlling reality. Or how much lives would be erased outright in her new reality, not to mention the ones sacrificed to achieve that goal, seeing she drained the life force of Nirn. Some of the dialogue, and lore even strongly implies Nocturnal would just absorb everything into herself, or subjugate everything to her will.
Seeing how she also invaded all of the planes of the Daedric Princes at once, as you mentioned, she was essentially violating all Daedric Princes at once. With it being far more brutal than what Meridia did with Coldhabour, and without any of the moral explanation,and arguments against it being a "rape".
As well as being shown as one of the more disdainful Daedric Princes towards mortals (as seen in her dialogue during her battle), and very vindictive, especially towards her own worshipers and servants, as shown with her curse on all who wore the Grey Cowl or with Nightingales who fail her, and punished on the whole Thieves guild for Mercer Frey's actions in Skyrim, without informing them (making one think how reality under her rule, would look, for mortals who even survived into it).
Further seeing how that seeing how her cultist Romien Garvette, describes Nocturnal's attitude towards her worshipers during the invasion of the Clockwork City in "Shadows and Whispers" - her worshipers being completely subjugated to her will, basically seeing themselves as an extension of Nocturnal, and not even able to feel joy anymore - which gives a real possibility this would be the existence for all, after Nocturnal would take over reality then, if she wouldn't just absorb everything into herself.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shadows_and_Whispers
This also overlaps with worshipers transformed by Nocturnal into Gloam Knights are implied to become extensions of her (being mentioned being "Shadows of Nocturnal", something what Romien describes his miserable state of being), and even of that isn't the case, they are stripped by Nocturnal from the ability to feel sympathy/empathy.
In general, it seems very probable Nocturnal is one of the "worse masters than him" mentioned by Molag Bal, and the Planemeld supposedly protecting against something worse, being at least among things protecting against her latter attempted take over of reality.
Or Sheogorath could be in the same view seen as purely Chaotic Evil (At least before his "replacement") - as while he has still some positive aspects in ESO, so has Meridia. And these are just two examples among Daedric Princes, and I could go through more.
I mean, as I mentioned before, Meridia in turn in ESO alone helped to save Nirn twice (and even second time all of creation from Nocturnal, who specifically knew she had to neutralize her to achieve her plans), defended her worshipers from Molag Bal, and restored the Vestige's soul even when it didn't give her any gain.
Still, this is just my opinion though... |
Edited by - Baltas on 23 Nov 2020 17:29:50 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 03:57:41
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To be fair, regarding Mercer Frey, it's not so much her actively punishing them so much as her withdrawing her support from them. Frey could actually be said to have got off scot-free, being the only competent thief of the lot. (The Thieves' Guild has famously been derided as the worst written guild in Skyrim, something of an achievement with the SUDDENLY WEREWOLVES and Psijic Puppet guilds around).
But yeah, Nocturnal is probably NE.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 04:21:05
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
To be fair, regarding Mercer Frey, it's not so much her actively punishing them so much as her withdrawing her support from them. Frey could actually be said to have got off scot-free, being the only competent thief of the lot. (The Thieves' Guild has famously been derided as the worst written guild in Skyrim, something of an achievement with the SUDDENLY WEREWOLVES and Psijic Puppet guilds around).
But yeah, Nocturnal is probably NE.
Yeah, I think it would NE Nocturnal better. It's also curious, as Nocturnal comes as pretty egoistical, in a much more destructive way than her "sister" Azura - which makes me think if they maybe secretly share this sphere...
On Toril, I think Nocturnal would get into conflict with Shar, due to similarities between them (well at least the WoTC/TSR Shar, as Ed has characterizing Shar as more on the Chaotic Neutral/Chaotic Evil border - he names her discord incarnate, who cycles of night, are not destruction of worlds, but causing civilizations destroy themselves in despair and decadence (hence Sharess was her aspect in 1e and early 2e lore) she inspires. This has some basis in canon though, as Elminster stated, I think in the "Herald" Shar's world destruction is a sham, and a way for her worshipers to destroy themselves).
This also makes me wonder if Azura and Nocturnal, weren't, at least latter on, somewhat influenced by Selune and Shar...
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 13:11:59
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| Molag Bal-Daedric Prince of Enslavement and Domination of Mortals and Lovator would make a cute (horrifying couple). |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 13:24:56
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| I think Loviatar would have a few objections over being married to the god of rape. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2020 : 21:11:14
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Master LordofBones,
quote:
I think Loviatar would have a few objections over being married to the god of rape.
Hmm, I don't know about that. Here is an interesting discussion on it from 2006: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6354
Also, when looking at Loviatar's dogma, quote:
The world is filled with pain and torment, and the best that one can do is to suffer those blows that cannot be avoided and deal as much pain back to those who offend. Kindnesses are the best companions to hurts, and increase the intensity of suffering. Let mercy of sudden abstinence from causing pain and of providing unlooked-for healing come over you seldom, but as a whim, so as to make folk hope and increase the Mystery of Loviatar’s Mercy. Unswerving cruelty will turn all folk against you. Act alluring, and give pain and torment to those who enjoy it as well as to those who deserve it most or would be most hurt by it. The lash, fire, and cold are the three pains that never fail the devout. Spread Loviatar’s teachings whenever punishment is meted out. Pain tests all, but gives strength of spirit and true pleasure to the hardy and the true. There is no true punishment if the punisher knows no discipline. Wherever a whip is, there is Loviatar. Fear her--and yet long for her.
, that makes me think very much that Loviatar would simply push for raping in a very "disciplined" manner. That is actually how I play it out in my campaigns when such atrocities occur.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2020 : 05:06:17
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Bal doesn't give a hoot about discipline. Bal rapes to show his power and as a method of imposing his will, like what he did to poor Lamae - it was purely to mock Arkay (and besides that, copulating with Bal actually killed her).
Big Daddy B was actually sanitized in ESO. |
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Daedra Lord From The Elder Scrolls Into FR
