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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 01:37:14
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Once again I have been pondering giants, and essentially assimilating some of the things that have been said on some of the "timeline" threads and even some of the comments George was kindly enough to interject into some of my other "giant" threads. You'll have to forgive some of my potential lore gaffs in this post. I came up with this while at work, so I was unable to go back through and check on some of the things I was wondering about.
George pointed out that Annam and Othea, and their offspring, may not be a literal accounting of how the giant races managed to come about in Toril, and it has been pointed out in a few places now that Ostoria, the giant empire, was long gone before the Great Glacier started to form, even though Ulutiu and Othea's affair is part of giantish mythology, and the Great Glacier is what the giant blame for their empire falling apart. On the other hand, we have other races and timelines that show that the giant kingdoms fell, bit by bit, most likely by dwarven axes, dragonfire, and other more "mundane" causes.
This led me to wonder what would be fact and what would be giantish mythology, and how did said legends come about. One thing that I always thought strange was that Annam had, by Othea, one son each that was non-divine, that mirrored the divine sons that he had by the mysteriously absent "sky goddes" of giant lore. My theory here would be that the giants that the Faerunian giants claim as their forbears are not Annam's sons, but rather the sons of Annam's sons, or his grandchildren. They were still partially divine, and very powerful, but not directly Annam's sons, but part of his line.
There are many reasons, mainly diplomatic, to draw all of them straight back to Annam. As a side note, given his role as the father of the giant pantheon, I wonder if any ancient texts list Annam's name as Ymir . . . but that is another matter . . .
At any rate, if this logic is followed, Othea may not have even been a goddess, but simply a comely giantess that Annam took a liking to. It is possible then, that Lannaxis was indeed Annam's son, a unique titan born of the union of a god and a giantess. Lannaxis fathered a lesser race of half-titan/half-giants if you will, and these became the ruling line of Ostoria. The giant kings decended from Annam's sons would all be beholden to Lanaxis as a direct son of Annam, and each ruled their various kindoms as vassal states of Ostoria.
Okay, so here are some wilder conjectures. Earlier, purer giants are said to have longer lives. Annam may have further increased Othea's lifespan to serve as his consort, but then she may have, at some point in time spurned Annam. The other theory is that Annam's had sons that were less than legitimate. Vaprak may actually be a less favored son, and one not from the mysterious "sky goddess" of giant mythology (this would reconcile with some of the "general" information about giant gods and Vaprak). It could be that Othea was taken against her will by Vaprak, and thus spawned the ogres and trolls. When she accused Vaprak, or perhaps when she blamed Annam for not protecting her, he may have turned her away from him.
At this point in time, Othea may have had several lovers. One may have been Ulutiu, but for a long lived (perhaps a DR 0 and thus immortal) giantess, there may have been others. Various other giantish species may have come from these various pairings. All this time, the giant kingdoms may have been falling, one at a time, until even Ostoria fell. It may be that the other kingdoms fell into rebellion and Lannaxis himself killed the various giant kings, his cousins, to preserve the realm, but to no avail.
Lannaxis could have been so distraught over this that he actually began to blame his mother for the downfall of his kindom. If she had still been with Annam, Annam may not have withdrawn his favor, or even become less involved with the world itself (in other words, the promise not to return may have been a figurative thing said in an arguement), and Ostoria may have been the preeminant empire in Faerun. So obsessed over all of this, he ended up killing his mother in a fit of rage, and when Ulutiu tried to avenge his lover, Annam protected his son (perhaps allowing Othea's curse to affect him though), but did not slay Ulutiu, since his actions were not unjust. All of this could have happened much later than the fall of Ostoria given the long lives of the beings involved (thus Annam only caused Ulutiu to fall into a deep sleep, and his amulet took it from there).
Lannaxis, desperate to retain some of his former, may have regathered many of the scattered giants, and formed them into a less grand, somewhat allied collection of kingdoms (those near Hartsvale), and in reforming them (especially once he took on his guise as the Twilight Spirit) began to rework their own history of their kingdoms, and the glory of Ostoria and its unity and such. He may have used Hartkiller, who may have been some random giant, or even kin of his offspring, rather than Annam's last, as an excuse to berate the giants and force them together.
Eventually Lannaxis himself may have even come to beleive some of his own stories, that all of his vassals were his brothers, that they were one big happy family unitl his mother's betrayal was found out, that all of Othea's other children were "illegitimate" gaints, that Ostoria was a long lasting, powerful, unified kingdom until his mother betrayed them, and that it was her fault that he killed his "brothers."
Thus, when Lannaxis puts his plan into effect, he has already rewritten giant history, and his own memory a bit. The only "brother" left is the one most likely to just go along with his plan, and all of this makes the fact that the higest "giant" species are actually outsiders work out fairly well, since they were decended from Annam and Othea, a god and a giantess. Of course, this would mean that Lannaxis' grand plan in the Twilight Giatns books was largely based on his own delusions, but hey, that might work.
If anyone else has some fine tuning to throw into this theory, let me know, or if I have made some serious gaffs in my memory of the timelines involved. As I said, I was just brainstorming this and work and didn't quite want to loose my train of thought.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 03:49:46
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Really interesting speculations. I have a slightly different take. I tend to take the mythology more literally. I don't vouch for every little detail being literally true, but I think the gist of it is basically accurate.
Remember, the giant gods are real. The people of Faerun know where they live. People can go ask them to straighten out the details. They have spells such as Communeand other such divinations that allow them to talk directly to the giant gods. Even though these events happened over 30,000 years ago, there are entities who were around back then that are still around and can be asked about it.
The legend which I think is more metaphorical is the one about how the Titans were destroyed by a falling star from the sky that formed the Sea of Fallen Stars. I take that to be a reference to Tearfall, the same event that spawned the race of dragons, and I link it to the end of the Batrachi dominion over Faerun. Tearfall is also referenced in Giantcraft wherein it is said the giants were a young race but were already well established when the dragons fell from the sky in eggs.
I have speculated that the Titans came into conflict with the Batrachi in the region around the smaller protoseas where the SOFS is now. I theorize the Batrachi made some sort of deal with Asgorath (Io) to wipe out the Titans and ended up killing off both the Titans and themselves in a massive overkill when Asgorath rained fire from above in an epic meteor shower that also seeded Faerun with dragon eggs thereby giving Asgorath purchase in Faerun for his own race.
In my estimation, Annam originally came to Faerun during the War of Light and Darkness. I figure he was one of several interloper gods from outside the cosmos to answer the call of Selune for aid against the armies of Shar. Of the gods who answered I figure Oghma was one, Silvanus was another (a fellow god from Oghma's celtic pantheon) who joined the cause primarily motivated to protect Chauntea. Tyche probably also joined the side of light, if only on a whim, although for all I know she might already have taken up with the newly born sun god (we know she was paired up with Lathander at the start of the Dawn Cataclysm).
Annam was also persuaded to fight for Chauntea and ended up meeting the goddess Sonnhild (aka Deronain aka Othea) a mountain goddess who probably realmed in the House of Nature with Chauntea. And so, smitten by Othea's charms, after the war was over he stayed and married her.
Parenthetically, under the name Sonnhild, Othea may have been worshipped by primitive humans as well as giants. This leads me to believe she was truly the personification of a real mountain. I don't think she was just a giant goddess or even an ascended giantess. She was also known to dwarves at some point under the name of Deronain. I think of her as a demi-goddess, a spirit of the mountain, a genius locii or perhaps something like a greek oread (mountain nymph). She might even have been part of the ancient Faerie pantheon. A strong possibility I think, upon reflection.
Now did Annam and Othea literally spawn the progenitors of the giant races of Faerun? I think they did. Was there really an individual named Lanaxis? Or was this the name of a tribe or a kingdom of Titans? I feel strongly that one or the other is true. Maybe both.
The thing I like about this story is that it makes Giants both native but also the sons of an interloper god. Sort of half-natives. One foot in Toril the other in the stars.
Now remember that Annam was an interloper god and had a whole brood of giant god children from a previous relationship. They were already well established on other worlds. He brought them over (or aspects of them) to be worshipped in Faerun with him. The giant pantheon are thus half-siblings to the mortal giant progenitors of Toril.
I would place these events in the timeline anywhere between the dawn of time (or whenever the War of Light and Darkness happened) and sometime before -31,000 DR, before Tearfall and the destruction of the Batrachi. I am sure the destruction of the Titan race during Tearfall set the giant races back a bit. Then, before they could recover from the Tearfall event, their development was checked in part by the dragons who rapidly grew into the dominant power of Faerun after -30,000 DR. Which is why the giants did not fully recover and blossom into a great civilization until around -28,000 DR.
Did the events detailed in Giantcraft happen literally as portrayed in the book? I think there is some room for play there. I myself would tend to weigh in on the closer to truth side than to interpret them only as myth and metaphor. Heck, we got nothing else to go on. And the info in Giantcraft is vital I think to determining where certain events fall in the timeline. But I understand why some sages might see that lore as only ancient legend and metaphor. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 04:01:23
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| Oh, don't get me wrong, I love Giantcraft. Its just from time to time I like to look at things and wonder if they are suppose to fact or if they were suppositions that grew from oft retold stories. And you could only use magic to confirm something if you doubted it in the first place. If you are sure of it, why ask? At the same time, you have some interesting speculations as well, definately worthy of cogitation . . . |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 07:36:47
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As much as I love the Giantcraft books I have always had a feeling that the old stories of the giant gods and the first giants are a mixture of the stories of the early giants in the realms mixed with the common mythological tales told by giants in different worlds and planes. There are a large amount of truth in them, but the question of time and place is more liberally used as needed.
Now reading through both of your posts here I think I will loan them to my home campaign as stories told by giants in different parts of the Realms, as they are to good to be left out. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 08:11:44
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| a question i got is ... what would happen if a highranking cleric/druid of Ulutiu managed to resurrect Othea, to make the way for Ulutius awakening ... a relative nobrainer would be that there would be a battle between Ulutiu and Auril about who'll have the power over the cold areas in the realms ... but otherwise, what would most logicly happen? ... who would Othea and Ulutiu make allies/enemies with and how would the giants react to that she was resurrected? |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 08:31:17
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| This could probably lead to a major glacier melting as he was released; this could have consequences for the lands near. Both Auril and Umberlee are mentioned as potential adversaries in Powers and Pantheons (2ed.),in addition a conflict within the giant pantheon, I think the awakening of Ulutio would have major consequences for the northernmost areas of the Realms. |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 16:30:44
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
George pointed out that Annam and Othea, and their offspring, may not be a literal accounting of how the giant races managed to come about in Toril, and it has been pointed out in a few places now that Ostoria, the giant empire, was long gone before the Great Glacier started to form, even though Ulutiu and Othea's affair is part of giantish mythology, and the Great Glacier is what the giant blame for their empire falling apart.
First of all, I should say clearly that I'm a fan of the Giant Mythology as presented in Giantcraft and the Troy Denning novels. I think those myths have the proper high-magic and epic-scope feel to fit in with the other early Realms myths.
The real problem is the dating of the "birth" of the Great Glacier. Ever since Swan's F14 module (The Great Glacier) came out, I've been very uncomfortable with the carbon-copy Inuit cultures and especially with the much too recent date provided for the death of Ulutiu.
My personal choice has been to ignore the dates for the forming of the Glacier and put it back into the mid to late Dawn Age were it belonged in the first place.
I think it's important to remember that the Great Glacier has changed shape on at least one canon occassion. There is no reason not to believe that it coudn't have changed shape on a number of occassions. Given the closeness of the poles, the original area occupied by the ice might not have been the area covered by the Great Glacier today. The ice could have easily spead north and west in colder areas before freezing the more southernly areas covered by the glacier today.
It's been my retcon assumption that the date cited in F14 was just another case of the glacier expanding. This time the expansion was further southward, covering modern-day Vassa, Damara and Impiltur. Later, when the glacier shrunk, this latest expansion was undone and the land returned to usable conditions. Perhaps in the further the glacier will contract further.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
On the other hand, we have other races and timelines that show that the giant kingdoms fell, bit by bit, most likely by dwarven axes, dragonfire, and other more "mundane" causes.
With the correcting of the date for the forming of the Great Glacier, there is no reason to assume that both causes could not be true. The expansion of the glacier makes parts of Ostoria unlivable for most of the giants. The betrayal of Othea and the later treachery of Lanaxis deprive the giant kingdom of much/most of its leadership, thus allowing the smaller races to chip away at the northern giant kingdom. It soon falls apart at the seems and the giants scatter across the north.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
This led me to wonder what would be fact and what would be giantish mythology, and how did said legends come about. One thing that I always thought strange was that Annam had, by Othea, one son each that was non-divine, that mirrored the divine sons that he had by the mysteriously absent "sky goddes" of giant lore. My theory here would be that the giants that the Faerunian giants claim as their forbears are not Annam's sons, but rather the sons of Annam's sons, or his grandchildren. They were still partially divine, and very powerful, but not directly Annam's sons, but part of his line.
That seems reasonable and I see no reason why that would not work. The other option was that because Othea was such a minor goddess (certainly in my mind she was divine rank 0 in 3.5 terms) that the sons that she bore Annam couldn't be fully divine. Even with Annam's divine seed, Othea couldn't bear divine children. In reality, the sons of Othea and Annam were half-celestial (or whatever other divine alignment you care to use). This way, the sons are still the direct issue of Annam and othea, but non-divine.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The other theory is that Annam's had sons that were less than legitimate. Vaprak may actually be a less favored son, and one not from the mysterious "sky goddess" of giant mythology (this would reconcile with some of the "general" information about giant gods and Vaprak). It could be that Othea was taken against her will by Vaprak, and thus spawned the ogres and trolls. When she accused Vaprak, or perhaps when she blamed Annam for not protecting her, he may have turned her away from him.
I like this idea a lot. It explains why Othea started to stray from Annam and still fits with the tale of her givinng birth to the ogres and trolls - which is a story that didn't make sense to me, given what little we know about Othea and why she was attracted to the rather gentle, quiet and almost shy Ulutiu. I had a difficult time with figuring how the same goddess would be attracted to two such different lovers. But if Vaprak was not a lover but a multiple-time abuser and Annam did nothing to protect Othea, things make more sense to me. Thanks - I think I'll adopt this bit.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
If anyone else has some fine tuning to throw into this theory, let me know, or if I have made some serious gaffs in my memory of the timelines involved. As I said, I was just brainstorming this and work and didn't quite want to loose my train of thought.
I certainly didn't see any gaffs and I really liked the part about Vaprak and Othea. Some of the other stuff, I'm not so sure about. I'm firmly stuck on the concept that the sons of Annam and Othea are actual birth sons. I alsodon't see any problems with adjusting a flawed dating in the F14 module so we can have the Great Glacier and the other treacheries weaking Ostoria and then allowing the dwarves and other races in norther Faerun finsih off the staggering empire.
My guess is that we'll never know for sure what happened and I don't see a problem with it. Personally, I'm not sure even FR DM's need to know the precise truth behind every myth, but that's a different topic altogether. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 16:37:19
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| To everyone that has replied . . . thanks . . . I was just kind of posting this to hash out some ideas, and didn't expect a whole lot of in depth analysis, but you guys have really come up with some interesting ideas to think about. Keep the ideas coming, and I'm glad that my post got this kind of response. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 16:43:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
The real problem is the dating of the "birth" of the Great Glacier. Ever since Swan's F14 module (The Great Glacier) came out, I've been very uncomfortable with the carbon-copy Inuit cultures and especially with the much too recent date provided for the death of Ulutiu.
I'll agree with you there. On one hand, the sourcebook had a lot of interesting information on survival in the cold and what tools such cultures would use and all, but it was a bit too much and too similar.
After reading the The Ruin (the last Year of Rogue Dragons book) I really wanted to revisit the Great Glacier with more of a focus on the Frost Giants, arctic dwarves, and monsters there, and not the "no magic, not even divine" humans.
Without giving much away, the book seemed to open the door for some of the less advanced cultures to have been given an "upgrade" in terms of equipment, and perhaps to have more interest at least in the divine. |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 18:36:44
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'll agree with you there. On one hand, the sourcebook had a lot of interesting information on survival in the cold and what tools such cultures would use and all, but it was a bit too much and too similar.
After reading the The Ruin (the last Year of Rogue Dragons book) I really wanted to revisit the Great Glacier with more of a focus on the Frost Giants, arctic dwarves, and monsters there, and not the "no magic, not even divine" humans.
I've not read the Rogue Dragons book, but I'd love to hear more about your ideas for re-invisioning the Great Glacier. Would you mind sharing some of your thoughts on the place?
I'm especially interested in what you'd like to see done with the Frost Giants. Any idea about how Othea's prohibition of the Giants from exploring the glacier effected the Frost Giants - or even if it still has some effect today? |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 18:37:45
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| I would love a Giant sourcebook. Maybe not FR specific, but along the lines of Libris Mortis. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2006 : 21:28:14
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| not to nickpick Halidan ... but Ulutiu aren't dead ... he is just slumbering next to the corpse of Othea, floating around in Astral plane ... and just barely manages to unconciusly give spells to his followers |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2006 : 05:15:59
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Actualy, unless there is some material that I've missed, he's frozen in an ice barge that's sunk at the bottom of the Great Glacier. Your correct that he isn't dead, but I don't think he's on the Astral plane either, although I could be wrong.
Likewise, I've never seen any material that talks about him floating next to the corpse of Othea. Do you have a source for this information? I'm assuming it's either Planscape or a 3/3.5 source that I've not seen. Either way, let me know. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2006 : 06:20:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
Actualy, unless there is some material that I've missed, he's frozen in an ice barge that's sunk at the bottom of the Great Glacier. Your correct that he isn't dead, but I don't think he's on the Astral plane either, although I could be wrong.
Likewise, I've never seen any material that talks about him floating next to the corpse of Othea. Do you have a source for this information? I'm assuming it's either Planscape or a 3/3.5 source that I've not seen. Either way, let me know.
Powers & Pantheons from 2e says he's in the astral as well as next to Othea. :) Furthermore, so does Faiths & Pantheons for 3/3.5e. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 12 Nov 2006 06:27:58 |
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More Giant Speculation Re: Myths
