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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore

USA
1283 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  03:54:52  Show Profile Send SirUrza a Private Message  Delete Topic
Is it just me or are the new generation of novels touching a lot more on sex then the old novels? Is it that WOTC is edgier or is did TSR have an adversion to even implied encounters?

"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy.

Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  04:05:55  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza

or is did TSR have an adversion to even implied encounters?



You answered the question with this. :) Yes, TSR had thier Code of Ethics and sex was not discussed, much or it was hidden. Same with gays, bi's, and lesbians that are NPC's.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  04:31:32  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza

Is it just me or are the new generation of novels touching a lot more on sex then the old novels?



It's not just you.

Personally, I think the House of Serpents trilogy uses sexual themes to a good effect.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore

USA
1103 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  04:34:56  Show Profile  Visit GothicDan's Homepage Send GothicDan a Private Message
Hm... I'll remember to read that one. ;)

Planescape Fanatic

"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD
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Murray Leeder
Forgotten Realms Author

Canada
228 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  05:36:54  Show Profile  Visit Murray Leeder's Homepage
I don't know-- the most explicit sex scenes I can recall in the Realms are in Darkwell and The Parched Sea.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  05:50:07  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message
SirUrza, I also suggest you read through some of Ed's replies, as he's discussed this subject more than once.

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore

USA
1283 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  05:57:14  Show Profile Send SirUrza a Private Message
Hehe I'm well aware of Ed's brainstorming of Silverymoon court orgies, it's just much of it never sees print and the last 3 Realms novels I've read all had sexual encounters, all new novels, I thought I'd make sure it wasn't just me forgetting some old stuff. :)

"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy.
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  06:05:28  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza

Hehe I'm well aware of Ed's brainstorming of Silverymoon court orgies, it's just much of it never sees print and the last 3 Realms novels I've read all had sexual encounters, all new novels, I thought I'd make sure it wasn't just me forgetting some old stuff. :)



Nay, what Sage meant is that Ed has discussed TSR'S anal Code of Ethics more then once and how bad it was at times. I.E at one point he couldn't even say that King Arthur and his wife had relations. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  06:05:49  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message
Most of the older TSR material used the old fade to black tricks, but I seem to remember a few short scenes involving sex in both the Harper books and Elaines works. The tone of Night Parade was to my memory, in many places the nearest to some of the grittier newer novels, even if the book did not have a sex scene in itself.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  06:23:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
And in Spellfire, Lhaeo did say people thought he was a "simpering man-lover". So some stuff did get by the accursed Code of Ethics, but not a lot.

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Crust
Learned Scribe

USA
273 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  06:39:01  Show Profile  Visit Crust's Homepage Send Crust a Private Message
Don't forget Shandril and Narm's awkward little romp amidst fallen rubble in Spellfire. Such passion!

I also recall Elminster having his genitals horribly ravaged by Nergal in El in Hell... Or maybe that was a dream sequence.

There's always something racy in Greenwood novels, whether it's a horrid devil with twelve breasts or Storm having her "nether region" scorched by a Zhent slyblade with a red-hot poker.

"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"

Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"

"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."

~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood

Edited by - Crust on 11 Jul 2006 06:45:22
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore

USA
1283 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  08:02:10  Show Profile Send SirUrza a Private Message
El in Hell was a WOTC novel though. Spellfire.. wasn't that in the special edition only? As for Storm and her nether regions, I'm not sure about that... but that could hurt!

"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy.
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
704 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  10:57:41  Show Profile  Visit EytanBernstein's Homepage Send EytanBernstein a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza

El in Hell was a WOTC novel though. Spellfire.. wasn't that in the special edition only? As for Storm and her nether regions, I'm not sure about that... but that could hurt!



I'm sure if Ed had complete publishing control, we'd see a lot more sex. I do recall one lesbian drow (or bisexual) in one of the Baldur's Gate Novels. Just so you guys know, there are still restrictions on language, sex, drugs, and certain kinds of gratuitous violence in WOTC contracts. I haven't seen the contracts for the novelists, but I would be surprised if most of those didn't apply to them as well.

http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein

Edited by - EytanBernstein on 11 Jul 2006 10:58:07
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  11:00:54  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message
Query: would you mind defining "certain kinds of gratuitous violence"? (Well, particularly "gratuitous." What constitutes gratuitous where WotC is concerned?)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  11:10:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza

El in Hell was a WOTC novel though. Spellfire.. wasn't that in the special edition only? As for Storm and her nether regions, I'm not sure about that... but that could hurt!



I have one of the old copies of Spellfire, and both bits are in there.

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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe

Canada
956 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  14:41:12  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message
*** This may have spoilers ***

I have noticed that trend too; I took it as part of the trend for the new D&D 3.0 Forgotten Realms' to be darker and "edgier".

Though I have no problem with sexual references and innuendo, as long as the sex doesn’t overshadow the story, I was a little disturbed with the tone of the sexual innuendo in the last few books, like the human woman and the male yaun-ti with two phalluses in the House of Serpents trilogy (the second novel I think) or Sarya subjugating herself to the devil Malkizid.

I’m no prude, bible thumper or radical conservative but I think there is a line that shouldn’t be crossed (that was the whole argument about the Books of Vile Darkness and Exalted Deeds, if they had crossed the line or not), whether on account of someone’s opinion of good taste or more so the number of young readers there are out there...and that line can become a razor’s edge if the “decency police” catch wind and start another inquisition against RPGs and D&D...and it seems the WoC novels are the bread and butter of the company.

My two cents

Kalin

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  15:07:59  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message
I've read Clive Barker...some, and lemme assure you FR novels are still rated PG if not lower compared to what Mr. Barker puts on paper. As for Sarya Dladrageth bonking a demon...devil? *shrug* We're talking about people who already are half demon (or devil?) and my take on that is that they did not manipulate genes to accomplish the new line of elf-demon hybrids.

Richard Baker didn't go into any details either, for which I really am glad, not because it repulses me, but because it didn't do anything for the story.

As for the line that should not be crossed...well, we're all adults, if we don't like a book we can still shelve it. The BoVD and its counterpart were meant for a mature audience, and it's still tinkertoys compared to what Black Dog released for V:TDA, just read the intro to Clanbook: Baali, and you know what I mean.

Besides, times change, films that would have received a 17 rating or something some 20 years ago are now available as 13 or some such thing. Sure, there are bible bashers and people who think burning books was a nice habit and should continue, butall in all we have become more liberal...erm...well Americans have become more liberal ;)...well, us Germans are more liberal also, Tears of the Sun was rated 16 and the theatrical release of Last Boy Scout is still banned... stupid world...

Bottom line is this: if we don't like a book we have the self-awareness to put it away... that's my opinion anyway.

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  15:14:11  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message
I saw this topic, and I was tempted to post just "YES!", but then I saw there was a more specific question.

Indeed, I think WotC has grown more permissive than it's old TSR forebears, and I myself am all for it. Heck, we even have implicit lesbian activity in the War of the Spider Queen, a touch in Baldur's Gate: ToB (or is it more explicit? I don't recall, having read it some time ago), and (it would seem) in my latest novella, The Greater Treasure (in reference to a single line that has, in an unforeseen manner, delighted certain scribes who wanted that situation clarified -- erm, not in that way).

Perhaps, WotC's technique is still "fade-to-black," but the fading happens a little later, I've found, or perhaps a little slower. Again, WotSQ, with. . .

SPOILERS

. . .Ryld and Halisstra. I seem to recall certain of those scenes, particularly in Extinction, as being more explicit than the TSR of old.

SPOILERS

Winterfox, your implied query (a very valid point): why is so much violence accepted, while sex is not? It would seem the audience's threshold for gratuitous violence is much, much higher than that for gratuitous sex. American society is so much more easily disturbed by sexuality (as legitimate, edifying, or wonderful as it may be in any given situation) than by violence, which people have grown inured to. It's like with drugs -- they've built up a much higher tolerance to "bloodnguts" than to "rutnhump."

And WotC makes marketing decisions based on the likely reception of the audience. That's just the nature of the beast. Otherwise, they might not be in business, and I for one want them to stay in business.

The explicit limitations against content (when it comes to sex, drugs, and rock. . . er, violence) that stand out in my mind are: no sexual situations involving "minors" (which I think we can agree isn't a bad policy), no excessive drug use (and drugs should never be painted in a positive light), and a PG-13 level of violence (which, as we well know, is ever-shifting in its interpretation). Everything else, to my understanding, falls between a writer and an editor.

I've written some rather racy (along with some rather disturbing) bits into Depths. We'll see how they come through the cutting room.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  15:18:57  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

Bottom line is this: if we don't like a book we have the self-awareness to put it away... that's my opinion anyway.



"Don't like, don't read"? Heh.

kalin agrivar: I haven't read the House of Serpents books yet, but I very much doubt anything in them is particularly explicit as far as sex goes. In what context were the phalluses mentioned, and how are they described? (And, hey, snakes really do have two penes, so the author might just've done the research.)

Otherwise, in all the FR novels I've read, sex is a matter of fade-to-black, sometimes prudishly so. So eh.

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Winterfox, your implied query (a very valid point): why is so much violence accepted, while sex is not? It would seem the audience's threshold for gratuitous violence is much, much higher than that for gratuitous sex. American society is so much more easily disturbed by sexuality (as legitimate, edifying, or wonderful as it may be in any given situation) than by violence, which people have grown inured to. It's like with drugs -- they've built up a much higher tolerance to "bloodnguts" than to "rutnhump."


Oh, yes. I was vaguely tickled that I could describe, in ever-loving details, a man being mind-controlled to flay himself and exploding brains in a PG-13 thing, and was never called on it by anybody, let alone the site's modding staff. But heavy petting? I'd have been warned to increase the rating to R.

Although, actually, I meant what I asked about that question. "Gratuitous" in particular, because in many novels, I see a lot of filler-esque action scenes that add zilch to plot or characterization, and could've been skipped without missing a thing. That I find gratuitous.

quote:
The explicit limitations against content (when it comes to sex, drugs, and rock. . . er, violence) that stand out in my mind are: no sexual situations involving "minors" (which I think we can agree isn't a bad policy), no excessive drug use (and drugs should never be painted in a positive light), and a PG-13 level of violence (which, as we well know, is ever-shifting in its interpretation). Everything else, to my understanding, falls between a writer and an editor.


To be sure, I don't know if the Realms' definition of age-of-majority is eighteen, so the "no sex with minor" thing in fantasy makes no sense to me (not saying there should be pedophiliac sex -- though in some stories, it happens -- but that having sex at the age of fourteen doesn't seem particularly squicky to me when the culture is different, and people tend to die at thirty-something), though I understand why they'd have such a policy. PG-13 violence, as you say, is a nebulous thing (see above).

Edited by - Winterfox on 11 Jul 2006 15:27:59
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  15:20:56  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message
I think it is frightening when a society has no problem with a guy(or gal) being shot, stabbed or whatnot to death (which is ABNORMAL) and freaks out when they see some flesh or a little more (and I don't mean pronography!) which is quite natural, unless anyone is born with the clothes and sneakers...

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  15:22:49  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message
Coming to think of it, if you want lyrics with very heavy innuendo check out most of the songs done by Whitesnake (which in itself is an innuendo!)

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe

Canada
956 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  16:27:54  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message

quote:

I haven't read the House of Serpents books yet, but I very much doubt anything in them is particularly explicit as far as sex goes. In what context were the phalluses mentioned, and how are they described? (And, hey, snakes really do have two penes, so the author might just've done the research.)


I knew that too and yes, some snakes do, but I think they are not both to deliever genetic material per say.....and I can't remember enough to quote directly that part but it was pretty obvious...and so was the series hero’s distaste of the fact the yaun-ti had two and their act of copulation...so I guess the hero and myself shared that revulsion maybe he was being a prude too just kidding

“I have no problem with sexual references and innuendo, as long as the sex doesn’t overshadow the story”

And my point wasn’t about if the “edgier” (edgier usually meaning that it pushes the accepted boundaries) is good or bad, right or wrong...I personally found my two examples images more disturbing than what I would liked to have read in a Realms Novel but that only my opinion (and I know how circular, redundant and inflammatory discussions are about “morality” and “personal taste”, after all, I am a Canadian living on the US border )

I have enjoyed the “wink, wink, nudge, nudge” approach to sex in the novels but I would rather not see the novels continuing to become more “liberal” (what ever that means) until there is (from suggested to obvious) bondage, rape, bestiality, necrophilia, etc.

Again, just some food for thought:

* I loved both the BoED and BoVD, I thought both books were needed and are good resources for mature players but is there a reason why the novels need to develop from a PG-13 to an R rating?

* There are readers less than 14 years of age, some maybe less than 10 that read these novels and should they be really exposed to these images?

* Because a reader, who started young, has matured, should the product line also mature? Would that reader have started reading the novels in the first place if they were mature?

quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

I think it is frightening when a society has no problem with a guy(or gal) being shot, stabbed or whatnot to death (which is ABNORMAL) and freaks out when they see some flesh or a little more (and I don't mean pronography!) which is quite natural, unless anyone is born with the clothes and sneakers...


The hypocrisy of the violence vs sex argument has been raging in “morality” circles for decades...but at the moment sex is still taboo in North America (once again, cultural difference make the “morality” argument pointless) while violence isn’t (I’ll add the whole “violence and drugs in professional sports” point into that discussion)

And once again, I’m not for or against it, I’m just questioning the decision to allow more mature imagery and content into a novel line of a genre that for the last 30 years has had a reputation of being “immoral” and “corrupt” to youth, especially when in the last few years D&D has been able to move beyond that reputation (thus they took the chance to publish the BoED and BoVD)

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  16:30:37  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox

Although, actually, I meant what I asked about that question. "Gratuitous" in particular, because in many novels, I see a lot of filler-esque action scenes that add zilch to plot or characterization, and could've been skipped without missing a thing. That I find gratuitous.


Full agreement.

quote:
To be sure, I don't know if the Realms' definition of age-of-majority is eighteen, so the "no sex with minor" thing in fantasy makes no sense to me (not saying there should be pedophiliac sex -- though in some stories, it happens -- but that having sex at the age of fourteen doesn't seem particularly squicky to me when the culture is different, and people tend to die at thirty-something), though I understand why they'd have such a policy. PG-13 violence, as you say, is a nebulous thing (see above).



I've done a lot of thinking about this, and, for me, what this means is that it should not involve "children" in sexual situations (that is, pedophilic situations), not necessarily "minors," by our arbitrary definition of the term. I fully support that understanding, as those situations take away choice and cause serious trauma to children. Non-controversial.

Then again, I would expect that WotC would like to avoid potential entanglements from lawsuits originating in the accusation that they are exploiting minors or engaging in child pornography.

As ridiculous as it would be to think that portraying a girl in a pseudo-medieval society, who would've had three children or more by age 16 in the real world, as having sex, particularly with much older men, say in their late 20s (again, historically reasonable), would be called exploitative or immoral when it's really just historically accurate, frivolous things like this DO happen. (Charges of satanism in D&D anyone?)

It all comes down to the reception and understanding of the audience, and the contexts are radically different. Your average teenage boy who's never studied history and doesn't yet have the kind of broad perspective that it might take to understand such things, might look at 12 and 13 year olds having sex in books as nasty or wrong, because he's been taught that way in his own world.

Look at the flak Romeo and Juliet gets: while it is true that Juliet is somewhat abnormally young, having been written so for a point (I believe she's 12, and most girls would have been married a little later, perhaps 14-15, in that era), and Romeo around 20 (also somewhat young, for the time, which I think is Shakespeare's point -- those hot, lusty Italians!), still that sort of youthful sexuality didn't have nearly the kind of stigma it does today, particularly in our society. Now, when you read the play in high school, kids titter, teachers joke, and we have to send permission slips home to parents to let them know what their kids are reading.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore

USA
1103 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  16:58:31  Show Profile  Visit GothicDan's Homepage Send GothicDan a Private Message
And let's not talk about non-lesbian homosexuality in the Realms.

It doesn't exist, apparently, according to some - or is so rare as to never be shown, even though Ed has said there's no stigma against in in Realmsian cultures. (Other than, I assume, when it would prevent someone from putting an heir on the throne/house seat.)

Planescape Fanatic

"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD

Edited by - GothicDan on 11 Jul 2006 16:59:17
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  17:23:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan

And let's not talk about non-lesbian homosexuality in the Realms.

It doesn't exist, apparently, according to some - or is so rare as to never be shown, even though Ed has said there's no stigma against in in Realmsian cultures. (Other than, I assume, when it would prevent someone from putting an heir on the throne/house seat.)



I've never seen any statements saying it didn't exist in the Realms... In fact, as I pointed out already, one of the earliest Realms novels we have had a character who was thought to be "a simpering man-lover from Baldur's Gate."

*Any* portrayals of same-sex relationships in the Realms are rare. But I think the reason there are fewer (if any) references to male homosexuality is because of the target audience. The majority of fantasy readers are straight males, and that's not a demographic that's likely to want to read about male homosexuality -- though many straight males would love to read about lesbians!

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  17:28:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

I think it is frightening when a society has no problem with a guy(or gal) being shot, stabbed or whatnot to death (which is ABNORMAL) and freaks out when they see some flesh or a little more (and I don't mean pronography!) which is quite natural, unless anyone is born with the clothes and sneakers...



It's real simple: we've not moved too far away from our cultural heritage. American society was strongly shaped by various flavors of Christianity. At the time of our nation's founding, sex was very much considered a necessary evil, but no one had any real issues with violence -- especially violence in the name of the Church (such as the Crusades, and the actions of the conquistadors).

It's not that our modern society has decided killing someone is okay and bonking someone isn't; it's that we've got centuries of cultural prejudice to overcome. For good or ill, we are products of our past.

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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  17:34:02  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan

And let's not talk about non-lesbian homosexuality in the Realms.

It doesn't exist, apparently, according to some - or is so rare as to never be shown, even though Ed has said there's no stigma against in in Realmsian cultures. (Other than, I assume, when it would prevent someone from putting an heir on the throne/house seat.)



As in, one never sees gay male characters in the Realms, or one never sees overt practices of non-lesbian homosexuality? Because if it's gay male characters we mean -- well, there are a few of those. They just tend to be subtle and infinitely debatable.

I myself know of no hands-down policy against GLBT characters or themes. Again, that's between an editor and a writer.

We also know that female-female homosexuality (or, more appropriately, bisexuality, usually involving the woman "having her fun" and ending up with a man in the end; which is not at all how it always happens) appears to be more palpable to the audience (there's that titilation aspect, I suppose), for better or for worse. I suppose that what appears in fiction is really just a mark of our times and our society's perceptions.

But, to bring up something Ed's said in the past: having lots and lots (or even just a few) homosexual/bisexual/transexual/whatever characters runs the risk of painting a work as being "about" GLBT issues, even if it's not. And that's fine if you want to press those, but I don't think that most fantasy authors do, so they hesitate to touch the issue at all (no pun intended). There are, of course, many who do. Perhaps the search for GLBT characters in WotC fiction is just misplaced.

'Course, that doesn't mean *I* don't insert them in my own stuff (or haven't, because clearly I have). But if I do, it's just because they're people, not because I'm pushing an agenda.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore

USA
1283 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  17:35:24  Show Profile Send SirUrza a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The majority of fantasy readers are straight males, and that's not a demographic that's likely to want to read about male homosexuality -- though many straight males would love to read about lesbians!


Here here! More lesbians please.




I'm soooo gonna get smacked if someone reads this comment.


"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy.

Edited by - SirUrza on 11 Jul 2006 17:37:05
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  17:52:22  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message
I have to bring up the "most fantasy readers are males" comments. According to the August 2006 issue of the Writer's Digest magazine and the editor who wrote the article, this isn't true. She says that the majority of people who read fiction, which fantasy is apart of, are female and only 20% of males, ranging from teens to adults, read fiction.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium

Edited by - Kuje on 11 Jul 2006 18:00:53
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  18:05:37  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

I have to bring up the "most fantasy readers are males" comments. According to the August 2006 issue of Writer's Digest magazine and the editor who wrote the article, this isn't true. She says that the majority of people who read fiction, which fantasy is apart of, are female and only 20% of males, ranging from teens to adults, read fiction.


I don't know about that. While I've personally encountered both male and female readers, I know that it's an anecdotal example rather than hard evidence. But saying that only 20% of fiction readers doesn't mean anything where fantasy is concerned. The math doesn't hold. Here, I'll make up some statistics:

Fantasy: 10
Romance: 30
Non-genre: 40
Detective: 20

So... suppose the male readers gravitate toward non-genre, detective and fantasy (let's say six to detective, five to non-genre, and nine to fantasy), and the rest are female, it still doesn't mean the numbers of male and female fantasy readers are equal, or that there aren't more male fantasy readers.
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Crust
Learned Scribe

USA
273 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2006 :  18:13:37  Show Profile  Visit Crust's Homepage Send Crust a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza

El in Hell was a WOTC novel though. Spellfire.. wasn't that in the special edition only? As for Storm and her nether regions, I'm not sure about that... but that could hurt!



The "nether regions" part happened in Silverfall while Storm was in the guise of that serving wench and those Zhents were torturing her. She had tassels on both nipples, and one Zhent ripped one off, nipple and all! This, of course, while Storm was casually mind-speaking with The Simbul, I believe.

"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"

Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"

"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."

~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood
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