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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Mar 2006 : 09:53:49
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I'm a nitpicker, a hair splitter, in short a perfectionist. At least when it comes to stories/novels. As a writer I pay a whole lot of attention to the mistakes *I* make in my own work. Sometimes, of course, especially if you are too close to the trees to see the burning forest, you cannot see the mistakes you made. That's where my beta-readers come in.
I think most writers have beta-readers who point out mistakes before the thing goes 'online'. Sometimes there is definitely no love lost between me and my beta-readers, after all THEY TRY TO KILL MY BABY!!! 
As a good friend, who is one of my beta-readers, pointed out to me, she doesn't try to kill my baby, she just saw an extra arm, leg and head to the thing that I plainly overlooked because it was, in my eyes, such a beautiful sight to behold.
She was right, and believe me it took some heavy argueing to make me see it.
An editor is, in some cases should be, the über-beta-reader. The voice of (whatever) god (you might believe in). They are trained to see such extra arms, or legs, or heads.
Sometimes I feel that they edit too much, and sometimes I fear that they edit too little.
When I really started getting into writing and learning my 'craft' I started noticing things. It's probably the same in whatever field your interest lies, be it sports or whathaveyou. I started, in the books I was reading, to rephrase sentences I thought 'felt' were wrong. But I didn't stop at that. When I noticed a dwarf slicing his sword through a foe when I was damn certain he had wielded an axe before I flipped back to the passage where the battle was initially started. I also started to notice that certain stories, while having a strong plot, seemed 'lacking'.
The 300+ page count of most WotC books is a standard format, but sometimes it just takes more time. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. Why is it that authors hired by WotC seem to be pressed into that format when it lessens the power of the story? In my opinion a story takes as long as it takes to be told. Certainly one can make adjustments in pacing, but when a crucial (at least to me) element is missing the story lacks its shine.
Mary Kirchoff once told me I am a born editor since I rephrase my own sentences while I speak. Maybe that was/is because English isn't my native tongue. Maybe that was/is because I wanna get it 'right'. I truly don't know. And certainly do I make mistakes. When I see 'em I correct 'em. When they are pointed out to me I do the same, sometimes grudgingly, but most of the times I am happy for the pointer.
When I was doing some translation work for the (then?) German publisher for the Dragonlance novels, I translated several short stories, I had to actually ADD 2 (I am serious TWO) bloody pages to a short story and fix a hell of a lot of things to actually make the story work in a way that didn't cause me to bleed out of my eyes, nose, and ears. And I was just a freelancer. The editors there changed lots of things in my manuscript. Sometimes they didn't like the way I structured a sentence or whathaveyou. When I was done with the translation, I shelved it and didn't bother with it again, until I was told by others who read both the translations of mine and the publisher's in-house-translator that my work was far better than that other person's. Naturally I wondered what I had done wrong, to not be hired again.
Maybe my conclusion is wrong, but after hearing other people complain about the sloppiness of translations I doubt it. I believe that to the editors, back then, the content and overall quality of the work is not as important as them having to work less on a project. I was a novice in translating, I guess I still am since I only did part of one other job translating the FRCS, and also in the field of writing in German. This may come as a surprise but after realizing how bad translations were, and the fact that the German publisher charged about 2 or 3 times as much for their books (they split the original Shannara books into three parts, Sword of Shannara had 3 parts etc), I started to solely read books in English (if they were originally written in English, of course).
The editors of that specific publisher didn't give a damn about better quality it seems, they wanted an already perfectly edited piece of work they could set and print, quality and contend be damned. And on top of it all they didn't even notice that I added an extra two pages to one story.
There is more I would like to say on that topic...and maybe I will on a later time, 'cause now I have a cappucino with my name on it waiting for me.
Mace (who really should drink less coffee)
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Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2006 : 13:49:10
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Much as we might like for the writing/publishing process to be ruled by purely artistic principles, a lot of it is based on economics, and that, I think, is particularly true of genre and shared-world books.
These books are written to a certain length because it would cost more money to print and bind extra pages, and someone has determined that doing a particular book at a particular length will maximize profits.
Similarly, the production of a book can be rushed at any point in the process of creation, from the writer actually banging the sucker out to editing or proofreading, because it's disruptive and damaging to the bottom line if the novel doesn't come out when scheduled. Sometimes this hurts quality.
On top of that, a publisher with a small staff only has to pay out a relatively small amount in salaries, and obviously, an editor who's overseeing, say, twenty projects at once won't be able to give each one as much attention as an editor overseeing ten. And if there's no separate proofreader or proofreading step, if that's been folded into the basic editing process, then the proofreading likely won't be as thorough. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2006 : 22:54:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I'm a nitpicker, a hair splitter, in short a perfectionist. At least when it comes to stories/novels. As a writer I pay a whole lot of attention to the mistakes *I* make in my own work. Sometimes, of course, especially if you are too close to the trees to see the burning forest, you cannot see the mistakes you made. That's where my beta-readers come in.
I think most writers have beta-readers who point out mistakes before the thing goes 'online'. Sometimes there is definitely no love lost between me and my beta-readers, after all THEY TRY TO KILL MY BABY!!!
I take it you're being facetious, because beta-readers deserve much, much, much love and chocolates. Especially when they're good at what they do and volunteer to do it without getting a cent. I've got one for characterization/plot, and one for grammar/spelling. I'd happily give either my firstborn if they asked for it (well, setting aside the fact that I don't have a firstborn; my cousin's must suffice).
*goes to shower love on her two betas* |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2006 : 23:34:50
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The length of novels (as well as RPG supplements) is often set at a certain page count because that count is the most cost effective. These days, 160 pages seems to be the key number for RPGs. I wouldn't be surprised if just over 300 pages was the ideal number financially for a novel. This has a lot to do with costs of printing. The most economical number for printing is probably the guiding force behind page count.
In terms of editing, I find that I go farther than most publishers ask me to do. I've been doing a great deal of mechanics editing recently (RPG crunch) but while doing this, I find that I also look for content, grammar, spelling, and flow. A few times, I've done so much of this editing that I've received credit as a content editor in edition to my assigned task.
I don't think the majority of editors out there seek to do the minimum effort. If you are working on 20 project, there are obvious constraints on your time, but very few people seek to do the least amount of work possible. That said, when I receive a manuscript riddled with inexcusable errors, I do get frustrated. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2006 : 02:28:45
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| The translation manuscript was proofread by my mom who is a German teacher, so I don't think it were a lot of inexcusable errors. It's been eight or so years since I did that Dragonlance gig...water under the bridge, I am contend knowing that I gave the best I could at that time, with a language I am (strangely enough) not as comfortable with as I am with English... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2006 : 02:42:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
I take it you're being facetious, because beta-readers deserve much, much, much love and chocolates. Especially when they're good at what they do and volunteer to do it without getting a cent. I've got one for characterization/plot, and one for grammar/spelling. I'd happily give either my firstborn if they asked for it (well, setting aside the fact that I don't have a firstborn; my cousin's must suffice).
*goes to shower love on her two betas*
As I said later on in my post I finally understood. It took some time and the changes being wrought on the story are significant because of my beta-readers.
As for being facetious, yes, I am/was, nevertheless, it took some heavy arguing because at the point when my beta-reader had made the comments, which were all right and justified, I had been developing the story for more than a decade and had the novel put away to ferment for a couple of years. The changes she suggested were major and have caused me to rethink a and start reworking a project that already contains 2 novels worth 240k of words.
The struggle was desperate. I wanted to fight for my vision only to see that it was flawed in some ways and the changes my beta suggested were making the entire thing much much leaner. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2006 : 02:53:45
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quote:
The struggle was desperate. I wanted to fight for my vision only to see that it was flawed in some ways and the changes my beta suggested were making the entire thing much much leaner.
I've learned that falling in love with your own writing is one of the worst things a writer can possibly do. Being absolutely ruthless and ready to kick out what doesn't work is essential. There's no darling baby here, but a formless, gooey blob you have to treat with fire in order to whip into shape. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2006 : 02:58:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
I've learned that falling in love with your own writing is one of the worst things a writer can possibly do. Being absolutely ruthless and ready to kick out what doesn't work is essential. There's no darling baby here, but a formless, gooey blob you have to treat with fire in order to whip into shape.
It wasn't that I was in love with my own writing as is (was?). It had taken me years to get the world and storyline to where I could work it out, had the second book of the trilogy based on the actions of the first one and as such I was afraid to face the trials and tribulations of doing such a massive overhaul. I just saw the hard work of several years going down the drain. A passage here or there would've been much easier to swallow.
Now it's down to enough chapters to almost make up one entire 400 page novel... That is what frightened the hell out of me |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Thoughts on editing
