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cpthero2
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Posted - 27 Nov 2020 :  16:20:46  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Acolyte Returnip,

quote:
Versatility and ambition mostly. Being able to switch between spells in combat such as the mage lord is able to offsets the weakness of fewer spells per day of the wizard class.


Nice call on that one for sure. While I obviously selected a really powerful wizard with Shoon VII, I do like to see selection of individuals like you selected for a variety of reasons. It would be much more likely to run across someone such as Rimmen (who is certainly quite powerful) than Shoon VII, or others that have been picked thus far. Power, as I've argued is not always a "one on one fight", which is why I think looking at ambition and how it is utilized.

I definitely liked your selection.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
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cpthero2
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Posted - 27 Nov 2020 :  16:22:59  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

quote:
That's why I've loved sorcerers since they came out -- they've got that tactical flexibility that wizards lack. Any time a wizard can prep for the situation he's going to face, a wizard will beat a sorcerer, hands down. But going in unprepared -- sorcerer, all the way. Knowing the best spell is useless if you can't cast it when you need to.


I hear you there. Yeah, if you get an equal level wizard and sorcerer running across one another for a fight, that versatility is extremely powerful. Did you always play straight sorcerer, or did you mix and match with some other PrC's, archtypes, or something else?

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
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Returnip
Learned Scribe

212 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2020 :  17:10:54  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Other factors that are important is if the spellcaster is focused on beating other spellcasters in which case it would be more powerful than a spellcaster geared to take on anything. Mage-killer (Magic of Faerūn) or Suel arcanamach (Complete Arcane) comes to mind. A spellcaster who is great at dispelling, counterspelling and protecting itself against magic attacks will have the upper hand against a spellcaster who is a generalist in many cases.

On the other hand you have different fingers.
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cpthero2
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Posted - 27 Nov 2020 :  17:28:39  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Acolyte Returnip,

Yeah, that all makes sense. One of the most powerful builds I've ever seen is a focused master specialist Abjurer. A real bruiser for sure.

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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 27 Nov 2020 :  18:04:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

quote:
That's why I've loved sorcerers since they came out -- they've got that tactical flexibility that wizards lack. Any time a wizard can prep for the situation he's going to face, a wizard will beat a sorcerer, hands down. But going in unprepared -- sorcerer, all the way. Knowing the best spell is useless if you can't cast it when you need to.


I hear you there. Yeah, if you get an equal level wizard and sorcerer running across one another for a fight, that versatility is extremely powerful. Did you always play straight sorcerer, or did you mix and match with some other PrC's, archtypes, or something else?

Best regards,






Actually, the one sorcerer I played was a variant one -- an Iron Kingdoms gun mage. He was quite skilled with a pistol, and through use of a magelock pistol and rune-marked ammo, delivered a lot of his spells via bullets. I thought it was awesome being able to shoot someone with a vampiric touch!

Not all spells were through the pistol -- just rays and touch spells. But that was still a lot of fun.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 27 Nov 2020 :  18:52:28  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

Whew! That sounds savage getting spells delivered through bullets! Damn. Bad enough getting shot, to then have a lightning bolt go off too. haha

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 27 Nov 2020 :  20:58:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

Whew! That sounds savage getting spells delivered through bullets! Damn. Bad enough getting shot, to then have a lightning bolt go off too. haha

Best regards,




It was only touch spells that could be delivered via bullet... So lightning bolt would be cast normally, but shocking grasp could be delivered via a bullet.

Ray spells could be fired from the gun, though, so it was essentially the same thing.

...And I put everything I could into making sure that when my guy fired his magelock, he hit what he was aiming at. Even, when possible, buffing his Dexterity with a spell, before battle.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Nov 2020 21:00:11
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cpthero2
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Posted - 27 Nov 2020 :  21:06:19  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

Ahhh, gotcha. That makes sense. I've never used firearms in my D&D games, so I just figured you could add in any spell you like to it. That's still pretty awesome though that you can add Shocking Grasp in on it.

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  00:13:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

Ahhh, gotcha. That makes sense. I've never used firearms in my D&D games, so I just figured you could add in any spell you like to it. That's still pretty awesome though that you can add Shocking Grasp in on it.

Best regards,




We were playing Pathfinder rules in the Iron Kingdoms setting. That setting is a mix of steampunk and fantasy -- hence, elements like channeling spells through pistols or having steam-powered robots with magical brains.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  05:22:31  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

Ahh, that's cool. Out of curiosity. Did you feel that firearms broke the game, or were just underwhelming (on the other side of the spectrum there)?

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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  05:34:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

Ahh, that's cool. Out of curiosity. Did you feel that firearms broke the game, or were just underwhelming (on the other side of the spectrum there)?

Best regards,




Neither. Firearms are a part of the Iron Kingdoms setting.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Nov 2020 05:34:45
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cpthero2
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Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  05:47:34  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

Ahhh. I see. I just looked that up. It looks pretty cool. I had way too much D&D in my mind thinking about that, but after a little bit of a review, I see that the Steampunk aspect appears to round it nicely. All d6 I noticed. Is it like GURPS with all skill based?

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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  06:53:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

Ahhh. I see. I just looked that up. It looks pretty cool. I had way too much D&D in my mind thinking about that, but after a little bit of a review, I see that the Steampunk aspect appears to round it nicely. All d6 I noticed. Is it like GURPS with all skill based?

Best regards,



The original version of the IKRPG was 3E D&D, as I recall, though there were a couple 3.5 products. Then they went their own way; I can't speak on that ruleset. (Their Monsternomicon books were excellent; some of my fave monster books from that era -- they were more like the 2E Monstrous Compendium entries than the "this is a bag of XP and GP" entries that have rule monster books since 3E came out)

We were playing Pathfinder, which is an outgrowth of 3.5.

Now the tabletop minis wargames, Warmachine and Hordes, those are based on 2d6 rules -- but that's wargames, not RPGs. The wargames came first.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Nov 2020 06:56:00
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Delnyn
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Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  14:15:01  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.

The spontaneous divination ACF for wizards frankly raises my eyebrows in terms of wizard flexibility. (On a side note powergamers should know I unconditionally banned Locate City Bomb in my campaigns. The attempt alone to cast the spell would sorely annoy Savras.)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  16:18:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.


I'd argue that it's sorcerers that are the Swiss Army knives -- if they know a spell, it's always handy. The wizard who loaded up on combat spells, expecting a big fight, is going to be useless when he needs a utility spell he didn't memorize today.

Granted, sorcerers have less spells, so a wizard is more likely to know the most useful spell for a given situation -- but the tradeoff is that the wizard has to be prepared for that situation, and/or that it only happens once.

Wizards dominate when they can properly prepare -- but sorcerers are always prepared, though to a lesser extent. The wizard has a larger toolbox, but he may not have the right tool handy -- the sorcerer has a smaller toolbox, but all of his tools are always readily at hand.

Actually, wizards remind me of Batman. Batman fans will go on and on, at length, about how he can beat anyone at all, given time to prepare. And whether or not that's true, it doesn't change the fact that other supers always have their full suite of powers handy, and that an unprepared Batman will be in trouble.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Nov 2020 16:25:05
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cpthero2
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Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  17:38:27  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Delnyn,

quote:
I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.


Well, I do agree with you there. That's why I've argued that the overall qualities (as I mentioned earlier regarding Shoon VII) are not just combat prowess. His capacity to project power based on his qualities as an insanely powerful wizard, coupled with his being arguably the most powerful demi-lich of all of them, makes him incredibly powerful.

However, I've argued (likely that you've seen) that divination is the most powerful of all schools of magic. There's a reason why Halruaa has continued to have Netyarch's who are diviner's time and again.

I mean, if you always know what's up, you can just avoid or control things until the right time to strike comes about.

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
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cpthero2
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Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  17:54:49  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

I will say, as it appeared you were arguing for, that if an equal level diviner and sorcerer got into an instant fight, I think that sorcerer would likely clean up, unless that diviner could escape first. Though, after that, that sorcerer would be screwed with that diviner wanting some healthy revenge.

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  18:39:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

I will say, as it appeared you were arguing for, that if an equal level diviner and sorcerer got into an instant fight, I think that sorcerer would likely clean up, unless that diviner could escape first. Though, after that, that sorcerer would be screwed with that diviner wanting some healthy revenge.

Best regards,





I wasn't addressing diviners specifically. And a wizard prepped for a fight will easily take a sorcerer.

My point is that wizards have to put a lot more effort into preparation, and that can be a huge drawback. It can be an advantage, too, but I'd rather be a sorcerer and not have to guess correctly to be effective.

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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1335 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2020 :  05:04:44  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.

The spontaneous divination ACF for wizards frankly raises my eyebrows in terms of wizard flexibility. (On a side note powergamers should know I unconditionally banned Locate City Bomb in my campaigns. The attempt alone to cast the spell would sorely annoy Savras.)




Would he be annoyed, or would he be intrigued that a mortal had so creatively reinterpreted the rules of divinatory magic.

Then the next thing anyone knows, Savras's next duel with Azuth goes a wee bit differently...

Mystra: "Kyah! Az...Azuth-kun!"
Velsharoon: "Sasuga, Savras-dono."
Savras: "XDXDXDXD...now, I think I'm going to have a nice chat with Sylune..."

Edited by - LordofBones on 29 Nov 2020 05:06:31
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Delnyn
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Posted - 29 Nov 2020 :  15:54:54  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Savras would pointedly ask the proposed caster if he checked for gas reservoirs under the surface or exposing Underdark portals that connect to the Abyss. (A hook to OoTA). I could picture Deneir and Oghma getting irate if such a spell destroyed/damaged a repository (Candlekeep!) of books and other media of knowledge.

That hypothetical rematch between Azuth and Savras and chat with Sylune amused me. Picturing Savras wreaking more annihilation than the tarrasque with Locate City Bomb on whim demand.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.

The spontaneous divination ACF for wizards frankly raises my eyebrows in terms of wizard flexibility. (On a side note powergamers should know I unconditionally banned Locate City Bomb in my campaigns. The attempt alone to cast the spell would sorely annoy Savras.)




Would he be annoyed, or would he be intrigued that a mortal had so creatively reinterpreted the rules of divinatory magic.

Then the next thing anyone knows, Savras's next duel with Azuth goes a wee bit differently...

Mystra: "Kyah! Az...Azuth-kun!"
Velsharoon: "Sasuga, Savras-dono."
Savras: "XDXDXDXD...now, I think I'm going to have a nice chat with Sylune..."


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Delnyn
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USA
506 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2020 :  16:39:03  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am good with your description of the trade-off between the "toolbox size" versus available on "demand".

Definitely yes about wizards being the party Batman. The wizard is the problem solver, detective and the one who fills in the gaps left by the other party members. Wizards really should NOT be stockpiling on just combat spells. That is what warmages and to a lesser extent warlocks and sorcerors are for. If a wizard must blast, that is what wands are for. Otherwise, wizards in combat do better as battlefield controllers than in direct damage roles.

I heartily recommend the scroll started by Cosmar about filling his PC wizard's spellbook. For example, Ayrik made a very good point about including dispel magic. Certain spells have more occassions for use both in and out of combat. Dispel magic and summoning spells are the first that come to mind.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am not convinced "best" should equate to combat prowess. Spontaneous casters of course have the advantage in spur-of-the-moment decision making situations, assuming their spell repertoire has a spell for the situation. Sorcerors work better in niche roles than wizards, all else being equal. Wizards are the Swiss Army knives of adventuring parties.


I'd argue that it's sorcerers that are the Swiss Army knives -- if they know a spell, it's always handy. The wizard who loaded up on combat spells, expecting a big fight, is going to be useless when he needs a utility spell he didn't memorize today.

Granted, sorcerers have less spells, so a wizard is more likely to know the most useful spell for a given situation -- but the tradeoff is that the wizard has to be prepared for that situation, and/or that it only happens once.

Wizards dominate when they can properly prepare -- but sorcerers are always prepared, though to a lesser extent. The wizard has a larger toolbox, but he may not have the right tool handy -- the sorcerer has a smaller toolbox, but all of his tools are always readily at hand.

Actually, wizards remind me of Batman. Batman fans will go on and on, at length, about how he can beat anyone at all, given time to prepare. And whether or not that's true, it doesn't change the fact that other supers always have their full suite of powers handy, and that an unprepared Batman will be in trouble.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34941 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2020 :  17:53:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am good with your description of the trade-off between the "toolbox size" versus available on "demand".

Definitely yes about wizards being the party Batman. The wizard is the problem solver, detective and the one who fills in the gaps left by the other party members. Wizards really should NOT be stockpiling on just combat spells. That is what warmages and to a lesser extent warlocks and sorcerors are for. If a wizard must blast, that is what wands are for. Otherwise, wizards in combat do better as battlefield controllers than in direct damage roles.


Actually had an argument here with someone who insisted that there was no possible circumstance in which a wizard shouldn't be fully loaded with combat spells. In his hidden tower in the middle of nowhere, crafting magic items and/or doing research? Combat spells. Hanging out with his lady? Combat spells. And so on...

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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
506 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2020 :  18:16:03  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I am good with your description of the trade-off between the "toolbox size" versus available on "demand".

Definitely yes about wizards being the party Batman. The wizard is the problem solver, detective and the one who fills in the gaps left by the other party members. Wizards really should NOT be stockpiling on just combat spells. That is what warmages and to a lesser extent warlocks and sorcerors are for. If a wizard must blast, that is what wands are for. Otherwise, wizards in combat do better as battlefield controllers than in direct damage roles.


Actually had an argument here with someone who insisted that there was no possible circumstance in which a wizard shouldn't be fully loaded with combat spells. In his hidden tower in the middle of nowhere, crafting magic items and/or doing research? Combat spells. Hanging out with his lady? Combat spells. And so on...



There is no reasoning with people who have that attitude. I only hope that player did not cause a TPK with his or her willful lack of preparation. "18 Intelligence but 3 Wisdom"
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cpthero2
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Posted - 30 Nov 2020 :  07:14:21  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

haha, that is rich! You know, those people just have to hang out more and let it all sink in! ;)

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Returnip
Learned Scribe

212 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2020 :  09:01:26  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually had an argument here with someone who insisted that there was no possible circumstance in which a wizard shouldn't be fully loaded with combat spells. In his hidden tower in the middle of nowhere, crafting magic items and/or doing research? Combat spells. Hanging out with his lady? Combat spells. And so on...



I had a player like that. He would always prepare maximized magic missile (ok, your enemy casts reflect projectiles) and then on top of that he always carried around a heavy crossbow because he didn't want to waste his spells, and since he couldn't shoot for sh't he mostly ended up pegging his companions in the back. Then he wanted to pick up the Loremaster prestige class...

On the other hand you have different fingers.
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