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Bane_the_Dark_Lord
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 05:49:50
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Ok so we are debating Chosen on another message board I'm on and the extent of Chosen throughout the Realms.
We have a dirty Mystra lover who posted this as a quote of Ed.
quote:
All deities have favoured servants, and many of them empower these mortal creatures with ‘special powers’ for short periods or indefinitely. None of them have ‘Chosen’ in quite the same way that Mystra does (mortals with some of her divine power invested in them, that she can’t reclaim or entirely control), although several deities have champions or other ‘special servants’ whom they CALL ‘Chosen.
Now we have the Chosen of Bane in the FRCS which Ed worked on. Fzoul definately has extra powers. We have The Chosen of Denier and Cadderly sure has some extra stuff.
We don't know what The Rotting Man or that Kraken, Chosen of Umberlee can do.
So what is the opinion here? Is Mystra the only one with "true" Chosen and everyone else has cheap imitations, or people they call Chosen and do nothing? Or do all Gods have Chosen and Mystra's maybe just a bit more powerful?
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 05:57:12
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The original Chosen, the Chosen of Mystra, aren't just granted power by Mystra, but actually contain a measure of her power. They are bonded to her in a special way, so that Mystra in effect has a check to her power, as some of her power is always with her Chosen. They are kind of like a touchstone to keep her grounded (if you are familiar with DC Comics, the Chosen of Mystra are kind of like the mortal contact that the Spectre had to keep him from getting too far away from his mortal life).
Other Chosen are specially favored servants that have been given special responsibilities and extra powers, but don't really have a part of their god's essese within them (in fact the closest anyone else probably got was Xvim containing Bane's essese . . . but he was a god and that was a long story). |
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Bane_the_Dark_Lord
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 05:59:25
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The original Chosen, the Chosen of Mystra, aren't just granted power by Mystra, but actually contain a measure of her power. They are bonded to her in a special way, so that Mystra in effect has a check to her power, as some of her power is always with her Chosen. They are kind of like a touchstone to keep her grounded (if you are familiar with DC Comics, the Chosen of Mystra are kind of like the mortal contact that the Spectre had to keep him from getting too far away from his mortal life).
Other Chosen are specially favored servants that have been given special responsibilities and extra powers, but don't really have a part of their god's essese within them (in fact the closest anyone else probably got was Xvim containing Bane's essese . . . but he was a god and that was a long story).
Right that was exactly as I understood it. (and I am familiar with the Spectre which I'm thanking god is not Hal Jordan anymore).
The issue was whether other Chosen would have powers, not to the extent of the Chosen of Mystra but to a lesser degree. (though the Chosen of Denier was bloody powerful) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 06:04:55
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| Have you read the Erevis Cale books? My favorite non-Mystra chosen so far has to be the poor Chosen of Oghma . . . but I won't ruin it for you if you haven't read the books. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 06:42:36
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| My FAQ on the WOTC boards contains all the current canon Chosen we know of. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 06:49:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
My FAQ on the WOTC boards contains all the current canon Chosen we know of. :)
My 'Chosen Sense' is tingling...
Perhaps I'd better finish that FR FAQ for Candlekeep sooner rather than later  ...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 07:00:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
My FAQ on the WOTC boards contains all the current canon Chosen we know of. :)
My 'Chosen Sense' is tingling...
Perhaps I'd better finish that FR FAQ for Candlekeep sooner rather than later ...
:) Well feel free to "steal" from mine. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 07:20:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Bane_the_Dark_Lord
Ok so we are debating Chosen on another message board I'm on and the extent of Chosen throughout the Realms.
We have a dirty Mystra lover who posted this as a quote of Ed.
quote:
All deities have favoured servants, and many of them empower these mortal creatures with ‘special powers’ for short periods or indefinitely. None of them have ‘Chosen’ in quite the same way that Mystra does (mortals with some of her divine power invested in them, that she can’t reclaim or entirely control), although several deities have champions or other ‘special servants’ whom they CALL ‘Chosen.
Now we have the Chosen of Bane in the FRCS which Ed worked on. Fzoul definately has extra powers. We have The Chosen of Denier and Cadderly sure has some extra stuff.
We don't know what The Rotting Man or that Kraken, Chosen of Umberlee can do.
So what is the opinion here? Is Mystra the only one with "true" Chosen and everyone else has cheap imitations, or people they call Chosen and do nothing? Or do all Gods have Chosen and Mystra's maybe just a bit more powerful?
Not every deity has a chosen. To become a Chosen and for a deity to make a chosen, the god needs to divert some of his divinity to the mortal in order for that person to become a chosen. Most deities have a few "favoured" followers that they grant with powers like immunity to sleep and hunger. These are just agents to do their work around the Realms but aren't like the Chosens of Mystra or Mask.
Chosens of deities tend to be created for a special task. For example, Chosens of Mystra were created to hold Mystra's powers while Chosens of Mask were created to help him take back his portfolio of Intrigue from Cyric. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 11:29:50
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Not every deity has a chosen. To become a Chosen and for a deity to make a chosen, the god needs to divert some of his divinity to the mortal in order for that person to become a chosen. Most deities have a few "favoured" followers that they grant with powers like immunity to sleep and hunger. These are just agents to do their work around the Realms but aren't like the Chosens of Mystra or Mask.
Chosens of deities tend to be created for a special task. For example, Chosens of Mystra were created to hold Mystra's powers while Chosens of Mask were created to help him take back his portfolio of Intrigue from Cyric.
This is the ticket. Mystra's Chosen are, in my opinion, the only true Chosen. They contain a significant amount of Mystra's own essence.
Other so-called Chosen, while they are the favored of their deity and have nifty, deity-granted abilities, do not contain that divine essence. Thus, they are not true Chosen. They should be called "Favored" or "Champion" or something like that. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 14:42:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
My FAQ on the WOTC boards contains all the current canon Chosen we know of. :)
My 'Chosen Sense' is tingling...
Perhaps I'd better finish that FR FAQ for Candlekeep sooner rather than later ...
:) Well feel free to "steal" from mine. :)
Hehe... I have to some degree. However I've elaborated on some questions, especially those that have been *known* to cause contention in the past.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 01 Jul 2005 14:44:48 |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 14:58:54
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Since the "Chosen of Mystra" were the first of their kind to appear, then everything compares to that. Sure, the Chosen of Mystra are touchstones to the Weave and all that. Other "Chosen" of other gods don't have that ability. That doesn't mean they don't have some similiar touchstone abilities of their patrons. I mean, maybe the Chosen of Talona is a touchstone to the network of viruses that live and thrive throughout the world. They act in a similiar way for their patron that the Chosen of Mystra do for magic.
So....if you consider that the Chosen of Mystra are responsible for maintaining the fabric of the Weave, then no other chosen of other gods can do that. If you consider the Chosen of any god to have special powers that are responsible for the ethos of their patrons then they are the same. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 15:01:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Not every deity has a chosen. To become a Chosen and for a deity to make a chosen, the god needs to divert some of his divinity to the mortal in order for that person to become a chosen. Most deities have a few "favoured" followers that they grant with powers like immunity to sleep and hunger. These are just agents to do their work around the Realms but aren't like the Chosens of Mystra or Mask.
Chosens of deities tend to be created for a special task. For example, Chosens of Mystra were created to hold Mystra's powers while Chosens of Mask were created to help him take back his portfolio of Intrigue from Cyric.
This is the ticket. Mystra's Chosen are, in my opinion, the only true Chosen. They contain a significant amount of Mystra's own essence.
Other so-called Chosen, while they are the favored of their deity and have nifty, deity-granted abilities, do not contain that divine essence. Thus, they are not true Chosen. They should be called "Favored" or "Champion" or something like that.
What Wooly said  .
I would only add that in most regards to most other "Chosen" (which I will now refer to as Divine Champions), their deities probably consider them "expandable" to some degree. Mystra's Chosen on the other hand, are an important balancing element in the Realms, and are essentially *more necessary* to its stability than those Divine Champions of other powers.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 15:04:10
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| How do we know that the Chosen of other gods don't have a part of their patron god's divine essence? |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 15:13:00
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Because none of them have this stated in his "sheets", historys, and so...
Mystra do this, and even given to some mortals part of his divine essence, she is one of the more powerful Faerunian deities, so I think that this (Mystra have Chosen with his divine essence) is not only an ace in the sleeve for Mystra, but a way to Ao "level down" the God of Magic (I think that, without this, Mystra will stay more powerful than the more powerful of the Faerunian deities...). But it is just one opinion... |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 15:35:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
How do we know that the Chosen of other gods don't have a part of their patron god's divine essence?
I certainly hope that is not the case!
That would completely destroy the "special nature" of Mystra's Chosen, and make the concept of a Chosen for a deity even more generic than it is slowly becoming now.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 15:56:04
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Maybe we haven't seen it because the current chosen just haven't been detailed yet. How do you add that into the stat block that is printed? And the histories for these chosen are not very detailed. Perhaps if they had the derth of material written about them that the Chosen of Mystra have then it would show that these chosen DO have a piece of divine essence.
I mean compare the amount of detail that the Chosen of Mystra have written about them compared to the COMBINED material on the rest of them. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 16:27:35
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| I gotta disagree again. Jeryth, one of Mielikki's Chosen, sure seems to have some of Mielikki's essence since that NPC was not a ranger until Mielikki made her a Chosen and granted her levels in that class. Since Mielikki is the ranger deity of the Faerun Pantheon it sure seems like she granted Jeryth some of her power. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 16:33:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
Maybe we haven't seen it because the current chosen just haven't been detailed yet. How do you add that into the stat block that is printed? And the histories for these chosen are not very detailed. Perhaps if they had the derth of material written about them that the Chosen of Mystra have then it would show that these chosen DO have a piece of divine essence.
I mean compare the amount of detail that the Chosen of Mystra have written about them compared to the COMBINED material on the rest of them.
Well, then sometimes you need to be basing this from the novels then. For example, the Erevis Cale trilogy which features two of Mask's Chosens. The protagonist in that series, Erevis Cale, is the First of Five but yet he does not seem to have any divine-blessed powers. It seems that the only thing that he got from being Chosen was his new weapon and becoming a Shade.
Then if you read about Chosens of Mystras, most of their Chosen abilities are divine-blessed, like having the ability to use silverfire or immunity to certain spells. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 16:56:20
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I have not read that novel, so I have no idea.
What about the other Chosen, though? The ones not listed in novels? |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 17:37:09
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| I'm sure that other Chosens have some of their deities' divinity and power, but none of them contain as much as Mystra's Chosens. The Goddess of Magic stored much of her powers within her Chosens, shown during ToT when she gave it to Elminster to hold. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 17:59:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
I have not read that novel, so I have no idea.
What about the other Chosen, though? The ones not listed in novels?
Fzoul Chembryl, the Chosen of Bane, has been statted out. There is no mention of his having a piece of Bane's essence.
Part of why Mystra's Chosen are unique is because of their role. They balance out Mystra, and store some of her power in case it's needed. They're kinda like "loyal opposition" -- they are loyal to Mystra, but they are not controlled by her, and with them having some of her power, they can act in opposition to her if she gets out of control. They are also assistants of a sort; they work to further the spread of magic, but in a pinch, they can also help to maintain the Weave.
That is why Mystra has Chosen. That is why hers are special. The rest are but pale shadows. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 18:01:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I gotta disagree again. Jeryth, one of Mielikki's Chosen, sure seems to have some of Mielikki's essence since that NPC was not a ranger until Mielikki made her a Chosen and granted her levels in that class. Since Mielikki is the ranger deity of the Faerun Pantheon it sure seems like she granted Jeryth some of her power.
I don't know that getting a couple of levels is the same as getting some of her essence. I don't recall Dove having any spellcasting levels, yet we know she has that divine essence. And IIRC, Qilué has only divine spellcasting (not including the Chosen abilities, of course). |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 18:43:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I gotta disagree again. Jeryth, one of Mielikki's Chosen, sure seems to have some of Mielikki's essence since that NPC was not a ranger until Mielikki made her a Chosen and granted her levels in that class. Since Mielikki is the ranger deity of the Faerun Pantheon it sure seems like she granted Jeryth some of her power.
I don't know that getting a couple of levels is the same as getting some of her essence. I don't recall Dove having any spellcasting levels, yet we know she has that divine essence. And IIRC, Qilué has only divine spellcasting (not including the Chosen abilities, of course).
Yes, I suppose but I still disagree. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Bane_the_Dark_Lord
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 21:57:19
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So what I've mainly gotten out of all this is a few things.
1.) Mystra's Chosen are more powerful and numerous.
2.) They actually possess a portion of mystra's essence/power instead of just being granted a few special powers by her.
3.) Other gods may indeed have Chosen but they are more just favored servants then true "Chosen" of their god. (and as we see the Chosen of Bane and Denier template are weaker then the Chosen of Mystra *should* be if you brought over all the 2ed abilities.) |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2005 : 00:59:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Bane_the_Dark_Lord
So what I've mainly gotten out of all this is a few things.
1.) Mystra's Chosen are more powerful and numerous.
Actually Msytra's chosen are not that numerous, with only about nine known to be her chosen. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2005 : 01:01:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by Bane_the_Dark_Lord
So what I've mainly gotten out of all this is a few things.
1.) Mystra's Chosen are more powerful and numerous.
Actually Msytra's chosen are not that numerous, with only about nine known to be her chosen.
Make that at least 13, plus the others that we don't know about. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 02 Jul 2005 01:05:28 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2005 : 01:18:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Part of why Mystra's Chosen are unique is because of their role. They balance out Mystra, and store some of her power in case it's needed. They're kinda like "loyal opposition" -- they are loyal to Mystra, but they are not controlled by her, and with them having some of her power, they can act in opposition to her if she gets out of control. They are also assistants of a sort; they work to further the spread of magic, but in a pinch, they can also help to maintain the Weave.
That is why Mystra has Chosen. That is why hers are special. The rest are but pale shadows.
That's what I was getting at earlier. To make the Divine Champions of the other deities similar to Mystra's Chosen takes away the charm of the Chosen characters and makes their entire position in the Realms seem "usual".
Although, Kuje's point about Jeryth is a valid one. Could it be that perhaps deities temporarily endow a portion of their power to their specific Divine Champions for "special needs"? Mielikki's Divine Champion, as reflected through the upgrade in class levels, could suggest that for the time being, Jeryth is carrying out some specific cause for Mielikki -- if and when that cause is completed, Jeryth may be returned to more appropriate stats.
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 02 Jul 2005 01:20:16 |
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Toedoe
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2005 : 04:14:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Not every deity has a chosen. To become a Chosen and for a deity to make a chosen, the god needs to divert some of his divinity to the mortal in order for that person to become a chosen. Most deities have a few "favoured" followers that they grant with powers like immunity to sleep and hunger. These are just agents to do their work around the Realms but aren't like the Chosens of Mystra or Mask.
Chosens of deities tend to be created for a special task. For example, Chosens of Mystra were created to hold Mystra's powers while Chosens of Mask were created to help him take back his portfolio of Intrigue from Cyric.
This is the ticket. Mystra's Chosen are, in my opinion, the only true Chosen. They contain a significant amount of Mystra's own essence.
Other so-called Chosen, while they are the favored of their deity and have nifty, deity-granted abilities, do not contain that divine essence. Thus, they are not true Chosen. They should be called "Favored" or "Champion" or something like that.
Malik carries in him Cyric's heart. Would that not be considered divine essence? I believe it should be, BUT I also believe Malik and all other chosen (champions) are different from Mystra's and that Mystra's fill a unique purpose. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2005 : 05:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Toedoe
Malik carries in him Cyric's heart. Would that not be considered divine essence? I believe it should be, BUT I also believe Malik and all other chosen (champions) are different from Mystra's and that Mystra's fill a unique purpose.
Not really... The fact that Cyric was able to pluck out his own heart and wave it around shows that it's just a lump of meat -- an artifact of his former humanity, perhaps. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2005 : 02:57:16
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Exactly like Wooly said. Cyric's heart is considered more of a holy artifact of his Church more than anything.
It's kind of like the drops of blood that fell to Faerun from Lathander's avatar during his battle with Sammaster the Mad. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2005 : 03:00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Exactly like Wooly said. Cyric's heart is considered more of a holy artifact of his Church more than anything.
It's kind of like the drops of blood that fell to Faerun from Lathander's avatar during his battle with Sammaster the Mad.
Pardon my asking, when was the battle between Lathander's avatar and Sammaster the Mad held? Is it true Sammaster was still a living mortal before he turned into a lich when he fought Lathander's avatar? Thanks. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Chosen in the Realms
