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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Neil

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Myself, I liked Xvim. I thought he had much better style than Bane... I was actually disappointed to read of Bane's return.

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'Banite' sounds better than 'Xvimlar'. That, and I really liked Bane, and missed him while he was gone. He was a god with tradition, brains and charisma, although as I understood it, certain TSR policies related to morality in the novels and sourcebooks made him come off a little like Dr. Claw ("I'll get you next time, Gadget! Next time!")

Bringing back Bane in the official products saves me the trouble of doing it myself. ;)

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I don't even like the name "Bane", much less terms like "Banite". "Iyachtu Xvim" is a cool name to say, and "Xvimlar" very much works for me.

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas,

DAMN! That is one hot, awesome-sauce, mega theory, and I for one love it! I didn't even think to connect Xvim going to Abeir! That is so deep, I have to ask Great Reader: were digging into the hallucinogenics last night, having a Xvimite divination ritual? You, Alaundo, and El Nar'ysr in a poker room sometime would be a fun as hell event to listen in on!

Best regards,

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas,

DAMN! That is one hot, awesome-sauce, mega theory, and I for one love it! I didn't even think to connect Xvim going to Abeir! That is so deep, I have to ask Great Reader: were digging into the hallucinogenics last night, having a Xvimite divination ritual? You, Alaundo, and El Nar'ysr in a poker room sometime would be a fun as hell event to listen in on!

Best regards,

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas,

DAMN! That is one hot, awesome-sauce, mega theory, and I for one love it! I didn't even think to connect Xvim going to Abeir! That is so deep, I have to ask Great Reader: were digging into the hallucinogenics last night, having a Xvimite divination ritual? You, Alaundo, and El Nar'ysr in a poker room sometime would be a fun as hell event to listen in on!

Best regards,

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.

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Thank you, and I don't use such products, but I do come up with wild ideas a lot. The other folks often have to reign me in by catching the parts I may miss, which usually leads to more extrapolation, and better ideas.

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Originally posted by redking

I am with Wooly Rupert. Xvim is Bane, Bane is Xvim.

It might be interesting to throw that in as a new Banite doctrine. A duality, father and son as one being.

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Originally posted by redking
It might be interesting to throw that in as a new Banite doctrine. A duality, father and son as one being.

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Originally posted by cpthero2
That is a fantastic acknowledgement of something really awesome! I never even had that in my mind. Is there any way you could dig more of that up and come back with a more robust analysis of that?

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Originally posted by Misereor

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Originally posted by redking
It might be interesting to throw that in as a new Banite doctrine. A duality, father and son as one being.

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If an Unholy Ghost shows up at some point, I'm calling shenanigans.

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Originally posted by Misereor

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Originally posted by cpthero2
That is a fantastic acknowledgement of something really awesome! I never even had that in my mind. Is there any way you could dig more of that up and come back with a more robust analysis of that?

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I'm afraid not. Between a flooded basement and a divorce, I usually have to go by recollection when quoting stuff. Lost damn near a full collection of FR stuff from 1st and 2nd ed. >:p

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Xvim is Bane 2.0.

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Originally posted by Returnip

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Xvim is Bane 2.0.

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I thought that was pretty obvious. Didn't know it was contested. A vision is just a vision, and Xvim could have planted it as it was percieved on purpose, sending a message. I never assumed that vision described was literally what had happened.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's never been conclusively stated anywhere..

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Originally posted by George Krashos

It's the world that Ao split off of what was originally Abeir-Toril. Now it's a wholly separate world with few direct connections to Toril - like it is in a different dimension. Every once in a while, there is a cosmic conjunction and the two interface. Such as the time of the Spelllplague. But that's 4E lore so details are sketchy.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by Returnip

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Originally posted by George Krashos

It's the world that Ao split off of what was originally Abeir-Toril. Now it's a wholly separate world with few direct connections to Toril - like it is in a different dimension. Every once in a while, there is a cosmic conjunction and the two interface. Such as the time of the Spelllplague. But that's 4E lore so details are sketchy.

-- George Krashos

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Ok, so two copies of the same reality but just slightly out of sync? Like vision after a hard hit to the head or after a few drinks too many? Or perhaps you can only see one of them at a time?

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Originally posted by Delnyn

Also, Abeir until 4E had primordials (Dawn Titans) but no gods (Estelar). The afterlife of an Abeiran soul is unknown, but whatever it is, Kelemvor has no say in the matter.

The Abeir-Toril split happened about -31,000 DR. One of the primodrials (Asgorath IIRC) tried to hurl an ice moon at the original planet Abeir-Toril. Ao split the planet to prevent destruction. The gods (and primordials such as Ubtao who sided with them) got Toril and the primordials got Abeir.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Delnyn

Also, Abeir until 4E had primordials (Dawn Titans) but no gods (Estelar). The afterlife of an Abeiran soul is unknown, but whatever it is, Kelemvor has no say in the matter.

The Abeir-Toril split happened about -31,000 DR. One of the primodrials (Asgorath IIRC) tried to hurl an ice moon at the original planet Abeir-Toril. Ao split the planet to prevent destruction. The gods (and primordials such as Ubtao who sided with them) got Toril and the primordials got Abeir.

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Apparently making a new planet is easier than stopping a big snowball.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.

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Originally posted by Bootravsky

In a similar way, I had the theory that Ambuchar Devayam and Iyachtu Xvim were different iterations of the Baneson, just from different lands and times - their names seem similar enough also. Maybe, they are all immortal beings that feed into the story cycle of the Strife Father being consumed by his child, a Faerunian version of Chronos/Zeus, or Arthur/Mordred. AND maybe Gilgeam is yet another iteration.
Jergal’s first child (DR -1377) = Ambuchar Devayam
Jergal splits his portfolio (-350s - -88)
The early first millennia = Gilgeam
DR 759 -1368 = Iyachtu Xvim

Timeline is messy, but who cares?

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.

We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.

We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.


So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.

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What makes you link Tan Chin of Kara-Tur (Ambuchar Devayam) and Jergal? For linking Gilgeam and Bane, there's several links in lore that hint that perhaps Gilgeam was taken over by Bane at some point (for instance the "Banespear" that was rumored to be able to slay Gilgeam, and the change in Gilgeam from a generally affable personality to a cold tyrant).

I had actually forgotten THIS idea (of Xvim being the one transferred to Abeir), but I admit I still like it that possibly Gilgeam is Xvim from when Xvim was masquerading as Bane. This whole storyline where "Bane is back as some lesser entity" just screams to me that something funky is going on with him. He's a full on high up power in some form, but I think there's separate "aspects" of him floating about..... maybe as different people (Xvim, Bane, etc...).... or maybe he was split in a way similar to Manshoon. There's some bigger story at play.

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Originally posted by Bootravsky

Oh, that’s easy: nothing but slight phonetic similarities between Iyachtu Xvim and Ambuchar Devayam. I just like the idea of something that ties the east and west realms tighter. They’ve always felt so separate, since most Realms products ignore Semphar and Murghom. Wasn’t Bane from the East as a living being? I think Myrkul was from Murghom, and Baal was Netherese (4e...).

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What makes you link Tan Chin of Kara-Tur (Ambuchar Devayam) and Jergal? For linking Gilgeam and Bane, there's several links in lore that hint that perhaps Gilgeam was taken over by Bane at some point (for instance the "Banespear" that was rumored to be able to slay Gilgeam, and the change in Gilgeam from a generally affable personality to a cold tyrant).

I had actually forgotten THIS idea (of Xvim being the one transferred to Abeir), but I admit I still like it that possibly Gilgeam is Xvim from when Xvim was masquerading as Bane. This whole storyline where "Bane is back as some lesser entity" just screams to me that something funky is going on with him. He's a full on high up power in some form, but I think there's separate "aspects" of him floating about..... maybe as different people (Xvim, Bane, etc...).... or maybe he was split in a way similar to Manshoon. There's some bigger story at play.

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Originally posted by rangerstranger


Wooly, I was looking for a full breakdown of your theory that Bane never returned and that Xvim is now pretending to be his father and this was the closest thing I could find in my searches. I have found an interesting note in an official source that I think would lend aid to your theory, if you have not already seen this bit of info. Again I haven't seen you make mention of it.

Anyway I am currently running a campaign where Scyllua Darkhope is prominent figure and I was looking for more info about her and her adoptive uncle, Teldorn Darkhope. So I went searching through all my books and I remembered that there are a couple of pages about Mintar in the Empires of the Shining Sea booklet. On Page 155, the first paragraph after "Notable Clergy and Churches" it says "The Temple of the Dark Lord, the temple at which Teldorn Darkhope received the visions that launched him on his schemes of conquest. Unknown to Darkhope, it was not Bane who was whispering tales of conquest and reward into his ears--it was actually Iyachtu Xvim, the Godson of Bane. Darkhope remains unaware of the deception to this day, but he suspects Bane may not be of the pawer he once was."

This definitely sets the precedent that Xvim is not above pretending to be his father in effort to further his own cause. Xvim may not have intended for Teldorn to believe he was Bane when whispering into his ear but he seems to have just ran with it after seeing how much fervor he created with in Teldorn and how effectively he was in conquering Mintar. Also, I find it interesting that Teldorn started his conquest of Mintar on Midwinter night, 1362, and Bane supposedly returned on Midwinter night, 1372.

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