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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Sep 2022 : 15:42:46
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Recently I was reading through Dungeon of a Mad Mage as part of some other research I've been attempting to do.
In one of the levels, it discusses how if the party destroys a cult of Shar that set up shop in Undermountain, they will receive the deed to "a run-down estate in Waterdeep worth 15,000gp along with an official property transfer notice signed by a magistrate and authorised by the Lords of Waterdeep".
Thing is, there's nothing to say where in Waterdeep this estate actually is.
It's given as a reward by Artor Morlin, the Baron of Blood (vampires were involved with the cult of Shar). The cult was also tied with House Moonstar, since Vanrak Moonstar founded it. But where would the estate go? Sure, a DM could sit it wherever, but there's probably an actual answer that makes sense with all the lore we've been given on Waterdeep over the years.
I wondered if it might be the Gost villa, since there are ties there to Artor Morlin, the Fireplace Level and the Dungeon of the Crypt. But that would also suggest something could have happened to the Gost family, even erasing them (or perhaps they moved elsewhere, but if they did then where did they go?), in between Artor Morlin pretending to be their seneschal (in 1370s DR) and handing over the estate to somebody else in 1490s DR.
It could also be something that the Moonstar family owns/owned during the period of the split between the two houses into Selune/Shar conflict, and Morlin just has a tie that led them to donate it to him for the players or something. But the current Moonstar villa is on the old site of a church to Selune, and their secondary villa, in Dock Ward, was specifically repurposed to a festhall (Blushing Mermaid), so it's unlikely to be either of those; the Gost seems more likely of these two possibilities.
A third option is that it's one of the many other noble estates all through Waterdeep, possibly the villa of a defunct one, but that's a very large ballpark.
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"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2022 : 18:37:47
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Here's the thing: It says "estate" -- not "Waterdhavian noble estate" or even "noble estate."
So it could be that it formerly belonged to Cormyrian or Tethyrian nobles.
It could be that the prior owners weren't noble at all, they were just wealthy enough for an estate. Perhaps an adventurer or a very successful merchant previously owned the place.
Even if you stick with Waterdhavian nobles, it could be a family that fell more than a hundred years ago, leaving the estate empty (but not necessarily without some upkeep) for a while. It could also be that it was owned by a family that moved to another location.
tl;dr version: You don't have to limit yourself to the estate of a fallen Waterdhavian noble family. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2022 : 22:39:07
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| Estate just means property (real estate) and usually implies something fairly sizable (as the 15,000gp would suggest). Nobility doesn't even come into it. It could be a house formerly owned by a wealthy merchant, for example. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2022 : 23:55:26
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| I am not sure a mere 15,000 gp would buy a sizable estate in Waterdeep. I suspect even the cost of land is high and a small building costs at least 4,000 gp any place in the realms IIRC. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2022 : 01:58:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I am not sure a mere 15,000 gp would buy a sizable estate in Waterdeep. I suspect even the cost of land is high and a small building costs at least 4,000 gp any place in the realms IIRC.
Starting on page 36 of Book I of the 2e City of Splendors box set, it talks about building types and locations in the city. Steven had also released information about costs of buildings in Waterdeep. Based on those items, 15,000 gp would get you a 2-story Class B building on a 60' x 60' lot in the Castle Ward (south of the castle).
Side note: I have the costs in my notes. I do not have where they were published so I don't know if I can just post them here. Based on the signature, I believe it was a Waterdeep web enhancement since it is signed with Steven Schend FR Senior Designer
Edit: I found it here, quoted by the esteemed Scribe Dalor Darden:
https://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23128&SearchTerms=class+b |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 02 Sep 2022 02:38:45 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2022 : 14:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I am not sure a mere 15,000 gp would buy a sizable estate in Waterdeep. I suspect even the cost of land is high and a small building costs at least 4,000 gp any place in the realms IIRC.
Starting on page 36 of Book I of the 2e City of Splendors box set, it talks about building types and locations in the city. Steven had also released information about costs of buildings in Waterdeep. Based on those items, 15,000 gp would get you a 2-story Class B building on a 60' x 60' lot in the Castle Ward (south of the castle).
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I am not sure a mere 15,000 gp would buy a sizable estate in Waterdeep. I suspect even the cost of land is high and a small building costs at least 4,000 gp any place in the realms IIRC.
Waterdeep is expensive, I agree. That being said, it does specify "run-down" so one certainly would not be getting it new. Probably not furnished particularly well either, inasmuch as that matters.
However, it's also a 5e adventure. To explain my thought pattern on it having been linked to one of the noble families, the 5e DMG lists the cost of a brand-new "noble estate with manor" as 25,000gp (a keep/small castle is 50,000gp, a fort is 15,000gp, and a large castle is 500,000gp).
Taking into account the way 5e writers tend to go for simplicity, I would honestly be surprised if the writer had dug into price variance in detail. Following the path of least resistance would mean applying an Occam's razor to knock 10,000gp off the price tag because of "run-down" status on the "estate" while at the same time waving away any registry costs and their ilk through the transfer notice and authorisation. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2022 : 15:58:46
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The path of least resistance is not having it be a noble estate.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Sep 2022 15:59:07 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2022 : 17:58:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The path of least resistance is not having it be a noble estate.
I think specifying that an estate in Waterdeep provided by a Waterdhavian resident who has long been puppeteering one noble family of the city directly and involved with several others indirectly is in fact something to do with Cormyr/Tethyr or non-noble families is more convoluted rather than less, but "you do you" as the saying goes! Certainly it could simply have been owned by a family who moved elsewhere and divested themselves of it to Morlin. And, with the various noble family unifications in Steven Schend's Blackstaff Tower, I would expect to see a couple of estates that were left defunct and unused because members of the conjoined families weren't living there and didn't need the upkeep draining the coffers. That's a much smaller ballpark to pick from. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2022 : 23:27:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The path of least resistance is not having it be a noble estate.
I think specifying that an estate in Waterdeep provided by a Waterdhavian resident who has long been puppeteering one noble family of the city directly and involved with several others indirectly is in fact something to do with Cormyr/Tethyr or non-noble families is more convoluted rather than less, but "you do you" as the saying goes!
What's convoluted about it? We know Tethyrian and Cormyrian nobles spend time in Waterdeep and own property there; some of Cormyr's noble families have Waterdhavian branches. It's easier than trying to explain it as a Waterdhavian noble family that's still around, or figuring out one that fell at the right timeframe. And there's nothing particularly convoluted in "family leaves, someone else -- directly or thru a proxy -- acquires their property." |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2022 : 02:35:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What's convoluted about it?
Morlin puppeteers nobles. Nobles are property owners. Morlin, who shows little indication of being interested in going outside his own delineated territory, is more likely to be connected to these than he is to people further removed. In a branch family case I would group them under “family of the city” such as Roaringhorn. Not that Roaringhorn has any evidence of association with Morlin that I know of, and is an example.
If entertaining your idea as a thought experiment, since it creates many options rather than narrowing them or finding one, I want to know where in Waterdeep you think it might be given Morlin’s activities, the circumstances of its acquisition, its cost, Waterdeep property costs, association with any nobles, merchants, Lords, whoevers, possible alliances, and so on. Detail is preferred! |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2022 : 03:29:19
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Again, you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. There doesn't need to be any puppeteering involved; I'm honestly not sure where that even came into the equation.
All that is necessary is for the estate to become vacant. There doesn't have to be any plan behind it or conspiracy or dark actors or anything.
Mayhaps it was home to a small branch of outside nobles, and the family dwindled and died off. Maybe it was owned by a wealthy merchant who had a run of bad luck and had to move out. Maybe it was owned by Waterdhavian nobility, and they upgraded to a better place. Maybe it was a vacation home for non-Waterdhavian nobles, and after leaving one year to go home, they never returned.
These are all plausible ways for the estate to become empty.
Once empty, maybe Morlin bought it as an investment property. Maybe he had an agent whose only job was to increase Morlin's wealth, and the agent brought the property, hoping to flip it. Maybe the title to the place changed hands as part of a gambling debt. Heck, maybe the prior owner died of non-vampire causes and Morlin took the deed from his corpse.
There doesn't have to be anything convoluted or sinister about how the property came to be Morlin's.
As for its "association with any nobles, merchants, Lords, whoevers, possible alliances, and so on" -- I don't have anything to build on, here; I don't know what you need.
It's wide open for the DM to do what they need to with it. Need a Sea Ward villa that House Snome once owned and would love to get their hands on again? Run with it! Need a North Ward home where some Obarskyr's mistress raised her illegitimate royal son? Go for it! Need a Trades Ward home where a former adventurer secreted a fair amount of wealth before disappearing on one last trip into Undermountain? Boom, it's done.
There are no details here. There's no need to figure out the canon specifics so you can then build around them. Don't let someone else's idea force you to try to work with their story -- build your story first, and decide how you're going to use the estate. Once you've decided how to use it, the details of where it is and how it became empty should come naturally. Let it serve the needs of your story. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2022 : 03:37:36
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Also, I gave up on reading Dungeon of a Mad Mage... Given what I saw in the part I did read, and what I've seen in other 5E material, I have to wonder if Artor Morlin was included more as a namedrop than anything else.
I really have to wonder why this centuries-old vampire would choose to show up personally with a "Hey, good job, here's the deed to an estate!"
Me, if I was involving him, it would be behind a couple of layers, and the giving of the estate would be to further some plot. Maybe nothing more than inconveniencing someone else, but there'd would have to be more to it than just a simple reward. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2022 : 15:24:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Again, you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. There doesn't need to be any puppeteering involved; I'm honestly not sure where that even came into the equation.
"I wondered if it might be the Gost villa, since there are ties there to Artor Morlin, the Fireplace Level and the Dungeon of the Crypt."
Right there! Morlin as of the City of Splendors book was involved on several levels with the Gost family (among others, but the Gosts are the ones he's pretending to be the seneschal for), puppeteering them by making them into thralls and making them take particular actions in the city, involving the "purging vampires" variety (which is stated in a Dungeon magazine adventure regarding the Fireplace Level that I consulted as part of my musings). This would ensure Waterdeep was and remained clean of enemies and challengers (since Morlin considers Waterdeep his exclusive/sole territory and defends it).
Dungeon of a Mad Mage (1490s DR) makes a point to highlight that Morlin is "congratulating" the players for eliminating a vampire who has been a thorn in his side for over a hundred years, drawing a potential line between the two as a continuation of the same activity "now" that he was doing "then". As my interest is in narrowing a field, it is as good a line to draw in my musing as any other, which I intend to keep doing as I muse.
quote:
There are no details here. There's no need to figure out the canon specifics so you can then build around them. Don't let someone else's idea force you to try to work with their story -- build your story first, and decide how you're going to use the estate. Once you've decided how to use it, the details of where it is and how it became empty should come naturally. Let it serve the needs of your story.
None of this is relevant to me because this isn't for a campaign - as I said at the start of the thread, it came up as part of something else I was researching (also not a campaign!). I am asking the question here because it intrigued me and there are people here who have a much more encyclopedic knowledge of what is where in Waterdeep than I do. There is a lot of detail on Waterdeep, and a DM could sit it wherever, but there's probably an actual answer in the detail that makes sense. I am interested in that answer, not the "wherever". If it was for a campaign I'd put it where it pleased me and if I deleted something somebody cared about in the process I would respond with a polite "not my problem" were they to complain. If someone doesn't have an answer that's also fine, I wasn't expecting anybody to come up with "because of Morlin's list of properties outlined in <location> and <location> and his activity involving <thing> the price of the estate clearly matches to the former mansion of <name> on the corner of <name> street and <name> alley and by the way here's the floor plan, pressing renovation needs, and furniture".
quote:
Given what I saw in the part I did read, and what I've seen in other 5E material, I have to wonder if Artor Morlin was included more as a namedrop than anything else.
This, on the other hand, does not take musing to answer! The corresponding Adventurer's League campaign season to the release of Dragon Heist and Dungeon of a Mad Mage features Morlin very heavily. It includes players of the campaign being caught up in his plans and activities and eventually going after him and his coffin.
Morlin is also described in AL as currently one of the masked lords of Waterdeep. His namedrop in Dungeon was almost certainly, I believe, included in the book to support interweaving between the campaign play in AL and hardback publications.
quote:
I really have to wonder why this centuries-old vampire would choose to show up personally with a "Hey, good job, here's the deed to an estate!"
It is not a personal appearance, as Dungeon makes sure to say very clearly that the deed comes via a letter delivered a not-insignificant period of time after Vanrakdoom is cleared out in Undermountain; Artor Morlin does not show up in person. If the player characters want to find out more about who the "A.M." signing the letter is, then the book directs that they should have to dig heavily across a period of several months while Masked Lords get involved to divert and halt their inquiries, before they will be able to learn it is in fact Artor Morlin. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2022 : 19:19:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Again, you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. There doesn't need to be any puppeteering involved; I'm honestly not sure where that even came into the equation.
"I wondered if it might be the Gost villa, since there are ties there to Artor Morlin, the Fireplace Level and the Dungeon of the Crypt."
Right there! Morlin as of the City of Splendors book was involved on several levels with the Gost family (among others, but the Gosts are the ones he's pretending to be the seneschal for), puppeteering them by making them into thralls and making them take particular actions in the city, involving the "purging vampires" variety (which is stated in a Dungeon magazine adventure regarding the Fireplace Level that I consulted as part of my musings). This would ensure Waterdeep was and remained clean of enemies and challengers (since Morlin considers Waterdeep his exclusive/sole territory and defends it).
But that doesn't mean the estate in question has anything at all to do with the Gost family, or that there was any puppeteering involved.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
Dungeon of a Mad Mage (1490s DR) makes a point to highlight that Morlin is "congratulating" the players for eliminating a vampire who has been a thorn in his side for over a hundred years, drawing a potential line between the two as a continuation of the same activity "now" that he was doing "then". As my interest is in narrowing a field, it is as good a line to draw in my musing as any other, which I intend to keep doing as I muse.
That's an odd thing for a vampire to do. "Hey, look, here I am!"
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are no details here. There's no need to figure out the canon specifics so you can then build around them. Don't let someone else's idea force you to try to work with their story -- build your story first, and decide how you're going to use the estate. Once you've decided how to use it, the details of where it is and how it became empty should come naturally. Let it serve the needs of your story.
None of this is relevant to me because this isn't for a campaign - as I said at the start of the thread, it came up as part of something else I was researching (also not a campaign!). I am asking the question here because it intrigued me and there are people here who have a much more encyclopedic knowledge of what is where in Waterdeep than I do. There is a lot of detail on Waterdeep, and a DM could sit it wherever, but there's probably an actual answer in the detail that makes sense. I am interested in that answer, not the "wherever". If it was for a campaign I'd put it where it pleased me and if I deleted something somebody cared about in the process I would respond with a polite "not my problem" were they to complain. If someone doesn't have an answer that's also fine, I wasn't expecting anybody to come up with "because of Morlin's list of properties outlined in <location> and <location> and his activity involving <thing> the price of the estate clearly matches to the former mansion of <name> on the corner of <name> street and <name> alley and by the way here's the floor plan, pressing renovation needs, and furniture".
It's 5E material. That right there makes it less likely that there is an answer. The Realmslore we've gotten since the end of the 3E era has been sparse and problematic, at best, and very rarely informative.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given what I saw in the part I did read, and what I've seen in other 5E material, I have to wonder if Artor Morlin was included more as a namedrop than anything else.
This, on the other hand, does not take musing to answer! The corresponding Adventurer's League campaign season to the release of Dragon Heist and Dungeon of a Mad Mage features Morlin very heavily. It includes players of the campaign being caught up in his plans and activities and eventually going after him and his coffin.
I did not have this information. On this point, I stand corrected.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
Morlin is also described in AL as currently one of the masked lords of Waterdeep. His namedrop in Dungeon was almost certainly, I believe, included in the book to support interweaving between the campaign play in AL and hardback publications.
Uh... What?!? A vampire Lord of Waterdeep? Nope, sorry, that's utterly ridiculous, given everything we have in prior lore.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I really have to wonder why this centuries-old vampire would choose to show up personally with a "Hey, good job, here's the deed to an estate!"
It is not a personal appearance, as Dungeon makes sure to say very clearly that the deed comes via a letter delivered a not-insignificant period of time after Vanrakdoom is cleared out in Undermountain; Artor Morlin does not show up in person. If the player characters want to find out more about who the "A.M." signing the letter is, then the book directs that they should have to dig heavily across a period of several months while Masked Lords get involved to divert and halt their inquiries, before they will be able to learn it is in fact Artor Morlin.
Okay, so he didn't show up in person. Using his actual initials is still a lot more direct than a centuries-old vampire should be. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2022 : 19:41:00
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| Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Adventurer's League stuff explicitly non-canon? Not that canon has any real meaning any more, but I believe AL stuff isn't canon compared to even what little we've gotten for 5E. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2022 : 01:53:17
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I don't treat those adventures as canon. One series a while back had the PCs overthrowing Szass Tam.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Placing a particular noble estate in Waterdeep
