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talia.beldon
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
 Posted - 21 May 2022 : 08:08:32
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Hi All,
New user, but not new to the realms.
Reading this (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19713) thread, it seems generally accepted that through clashes between Targus / Garagos and Tempus resulted in the waning of those two powers and the rise of Tempus (after the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath).
Faiths and Avatars mentions Tempus winning and subsuming the portfolio of war from Garagos (and by extension Targus), presumably around this time. Seeing as how Tempus was already the Talfiric deity of war, he clearly already had this portfolio, and probably just gained a good number of Garagos' followers.
What I'm wondering is, across the two to three centuries between the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath and the rise of Tempus as more than just a local Talfiric power, what rituals, holy days and dogma did he inherit from Garagos and Targus, either directly from from the fallen gods, or from the influence of so many new followers from these old faiths on his church?
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2022 : 08:33:46
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I'm so glad people are looking at the churches as evolving institutes rather than static monoliths that are entirely determined by the whims of the deity.
If it were me, i would first look at the writeup of Targus in the Netheril boxed set, and Garagos in Powers and Pantheons, and then compare these writeups to that of Tempus in Faiths and Avatars for any similarities as this will give the greatest indicator of what has been absorbed by the church of tempus.
Next up i would look for anything involving repetition of rituals or days or even things regarding the god itself. For instance Talos has 3 separate hand attachments and i would directly attribute such an oddity to the merging of the churches of Kozah, Talas, and Bhaelros.
In Tempus' case we have the two horses Tempus rides, i would have one of those horses originally belong to Targus or Garagos and the other belong to Tempus.
Typically when a church merges there would be a period of negotiation and reconciliation between the two groups of followers, where they try to decide what the new church will look like. The more powerful group retains the name and the structure mostly, while the lesser group is given concessions such as they get to keep a black horse in the imagery and perhaps the name of a priestly title, maybe even a specific ceremony. That way the two groups can agree they all worship the same god and move forward. The alternative is decades of religious strife until one group is wiped out or worse both churches become stable and are rivals for many centuries.
In the case of the Tempus, Garagos, and Targus, there clearly was a period of strife, but i dont think it was all at the same time as the stories say.
Netheril fell and its followers moved into the Western Heartlands and Dragon Reach. In the Western Heartlands we have talfir and illuskan and calishite / tethyrian people all mingling. THe followers of Tempus and Targus clash here and Targus is the clear loser.
Then Jhaamdath falls a century later and people migrate to the southern and western shores of the Dragonmere while people from the Western Heartlands migrate there as well. This is likely where Tempus and Garagos followers come into conflict and Garagos loses.
After that there is the extended period of a millennia where the larger church of tempus expands in all directions with Chondathan traders and subsumes the isolated pockets of netherese and jhaamadathan settlers that went elsewhere (like to Impiltur) and other local deities across Faerun.
I really dislike the alternative which is the god Tempus spoke to everyone and said "i am now the god of war, everyone worship me or else", and almost everyone instantly converts to worship of Tempus. People look to the novels to justify this kind of explanation, but most of those novels are very poor in quality and plot and do not always match the spirit of Ed's original vision, and many of them detail singular exceptional events that should not be considered the norm. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2022 : 09:55:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Whoa, whoa...wait a sec: he used to be the god of laptop bags?
First, cute hahaha about the laptop bags. Targus was the Netherese god of ward and the dogma more closely resembled Garagos than Tempus. My disclaimer is that the Targus doctrine came from the Netheril boxed set. This forum already has documented the flaws with that particular product.
My attempt at humor: Garagos and Targus would have despised Drizzt Do'Urden for arrogantly claiming the title "Lord Ginsu". |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2022 : 18:30:25
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On that idea of the two horses belonging to different deities that merged, that's an interesting idea. The two gods may have used them differently as well. For instance one may have rode his horse in flying the flag of the people who would win, while the other deity might have rode his horse in flying the flag of those who would fall. In short, one deity may have been more of raising morale of the side he's chosen, whereas the other may have been seen as "you better change my mind or you're gonna die".
In a similar vein, the horses themselves, as they were represented may have changed over time. For instance, Garagos, having multiple arms... maybe his horse was like sleipnir with multiple legs or maybe it was a nightmare. Meanwhile, the deity with the white horse may have been portrayed more that the horse was an asperii and could fly. Not saying it has to be that way, but it could be an interesting story/approach. There might be heretical sects that still portray these horses looking like this (i.e. the aperii has a long mane, the black horse has extra legs). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 23 May 2022 18:43:09 |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2022 : 00:14:12
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I don't think much get carried over. In both cases Tempus was firm in "I defeated them and they are gone. All Hail Tempus."
Neither Targus or Garagos had massive organized religions. Each 'church' was mostly independent. This makes it easy to absorb all the followers into Tempus.
As with most mortal things, many fade over time. Every generation changes things. It's "slow", to mortals. You can see this with nearly any example you want. School is a good example: did you graduate from high school more then 20 years ago? You might have well gone to an alien planet compared to school today.
As per Realmslore, Tempus likely would grant spells to Targus or Garagos for some time. Often a mortal life time, and let the "die hard" worshipers die off normally. |
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Tempus, Garagos and Targus, oh my!
