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redking
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Oct 2023 : 09:49:10
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I finished Lolth's Warrior. Without important spoilers: the three books of this trilogy would have been better served as one book, condensed down and without the rather pointless filler. Lolth is an inconsistent and poorly written character. Some people here will mistake the poor writing for metaphysical chaos but it's just poor characterisation.
Menzoberranzan is returned to the virtual status quo of the Homeland novel era. The Callidae drow are still pointless. Atheism apparently makes one a worse writer if the subject matter is fantasy that includes religions. Disappointing. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2023 : 15:52:53
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quote:
Originally posted by redking
Lolth is an inconsistent and poorly written character. Some people here will mistake the poor writing for metaphysical chaos but it's just poor characterisation.
That's hardly new. The only book that saw Lolth as a character that made you wonder about how she actually felt about stuff and why she did what she did, was Elaine's Evermeet. And even there Lolth was still Lolth. As an antagonist, Lolth devalues any protagonist, because 1)she has very few consistent positions, so you don't even know what exactly the protagonists are fighting 2)the few positions she consistently holds are edgelord nonsense that can never challenge any character's worldview (assuming they have half a brain).
Randomness isn't the same as chaos--chaos can be compelling, randomness goes against one of the 2 main purposes that all stories serve (providing an illusion of meaning to existence, and of things making sense). But it's kinda pointless to have this discussion: IME, readers who are "fans" will just eat whatever justification for a piss poor character the writer throws at them. Just let them enjoy whatever they enjoy, at this point the FR/D&D fiction is more of a joke than it has ever been, and it won't recover because neither WotC nor RAS give a single sh*t about storytelling.
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Atheism apparently makes one a worse writer if the subject matter is fantasy that includes religions.
It doesn't, unless you use fiction as a way to rub your beliefs in your readers' faces. And let's be clear: every piece of half-decently written fiction expresses a worldview. The problem is when that worldview is never challenged or when you force your worldview on someone else's setting (RAS' case). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 07 Oct 2023 16:06:02 |
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redking
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2023 : 16:00:57
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| The ironic thing is that when Salvatore was a religious believer he never shoved his beliefs down our throats. Now that he is an atheist, he is an evangelist for atheism. |
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VaxarKun
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2023 : 15:07:29
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quote:
Originally posted by redking
The Callidae drow are still pointless.
I beg to differ! They exist to validate Drizzt's and the other feelings and thoughts regarding Drow. That they ain't all bad and it's just big cruel Lolth's corruption that made the drow evil. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2023 : 17:40:21
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quote:
Originally posted by redking
The ironic thing is that when Salvatore was a religious believer he never shoved his beliefs down our throats. Now that he is an atheist, he is an evangelist for atheism.
Pretty much. RAS doesn't miss an opportunity to make even the good deities (like Mielikki) look bad, and anyone who is a believer (in a world where the gods are very real and everywhere) is ignorant and wrong. It's a big reason I stopped reading his books. I am not particularly religious, but I got really tired of him making even fictional religion a bad thing. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 22 Oct 2023 17:42:06 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2023 : 20:52:25
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| I dislike Drizzt's novels as much as the next guy, but I cannot avoid to find it ironic that every Realms fan was totally ok when they shoved christianity down our throats with the Wall of the Faithless, but now everyone is disturbed because one author decided to do the same with atheism... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Oct 2023 20:53:09 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2023 : 01:59:18
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| I wouldn't call the Wall Christianity, and it wasn't really shoved down our throats the way RAS is doing with atheism. It was just part of god lore (albeit not a great part). RAS is like "all religion is bad, even fictional religion. I will make all of them look bad." |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2023 : 02:59:44
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I wouldn't call the Wall Christianity,
Only in Abrahamic monotheistic religions, (and specially in Christianity) there is a punishment for non-believing in god. So, you're technically right, it's not just Christianity, but I doubt the TSR writers of the time were Muslims or Jews...
But it was still forcing their beliefs into us through the Realms. So, RAS is doing nothing new.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Oct 2023 03:00:44 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2023 : 10:37:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
every Realms fan was totally ok when they shoved christianity down our throats with the Wall of the Faithless
A search on this site (or anywhere on the web) will show that this simply isn't true. The Wall has sparked some of the most heated discussions here and elsewhere, and you might have been part of those. Either way, tons of Realms fans weren't ok with the Wall, just like tons of Realms fans aren't ok with RAS taking something he didn't create and acting like he owns the place. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Oct 2023 12:53:17 |
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Shardnax
Acolyte
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2023 : 14:52:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I dislike Drizzt's novels as much as the next guy, but I cannot avoid to find it ironic that every Realms fan was totally ok when they shoved christianity down our throats with the Wall of the Faithless, but now everyone is disturbed because one author decided to do the same with atheism...
It's annoying because it's dumb and illogical. There is no concept of atheism in a fantasy setting with gods actively mucking about with the mortals. The character would be provably wrong. The concept wouldn't occur to low intelligence characters and moderate or above intelligence characters wouldn't make the mistake. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2023 : 21:39:31
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| I always viewed the Wall as more of a stupidity check than an atheism check. It's one thing to deny the gods' existence when gods literally have walked the world and will likely do so in the future, and another to deny the gods' existence when that has never happened. |
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redking
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2023 : 02:05:05
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| Drizzt on the wall of the faithless is going to be hilarious. Also, the wall of the faithless is great. It gave us the great expansion to Neverwinter Nights 2, Mask of the Betrayer. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2023 : 06:14:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I always viewed the Wall as more of a stupidity check than an atheism check. It's one thing to deny the gods' existence when gods literally have walked the world and will likely do so in the future, and another to deny the gods' existence when that has never happened.
It's more of a "are these people really gods?", and "what's divinity?", and "why worship?" kind of issue. FR gods are literally just people (or whatever other creature), with most of the struggles and qualities and flaws of people, just vastly more powerful. They don't understand the "absolute truth of the world", or the way to enlightenment, or whatever other philosophical construct is usually associated to divinity. They just have their own ideals and M.O., exactly like people.
But I agree with redking, the Wall's a great antagonist for games and campaigns that want to tackle those matters. After all, it's not some stuff that was retconned in, but the product of Myrkul's cruelty. It was never presented as a good or necessary thing (until Kel took over, that is: I only wish they gave Kel actually good reasons for not demolishing it, or made him straight up unable to remove Myrkul's legacy on the fugue, or any other solution that isn't the bullshit we got). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Oct 2023 06:21:16 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2023 : 06:54:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
It's more of a "are these people really gods?", and "what's divinity?", and "why worship?" kind of issue. FR gods are literally just people (or whatever other creature), with most of the struggles and qualities and flaws of people, just vastly more powerful. They don't understand the "absolute truth of the world", or the way to enlightenment, or whatever other philosophical construct is usually associated to divinity. They just have their own ideals and M.O., exactly like people.
That's true and totally valid, and yeah, it does suck for people that reason that way to end up in the Wall. I thought it was for those who deny the gods' existence despite countless evidence to the contrary. |
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redking
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2023 : 19:50:56
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| The Wall of the Faithless totally makes sense. Not only are there miracles in your everyday life in the realms, if you were around for the time of troubles, you may have actually met a god. The Wall of the Faithless is where Drizzt will end up. It is because he is arrogant and a disbeliever despite all the direct evidence given to him. |
Edited by - redking on 25 Oct 2023 19:51:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 03:07:02
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quote:
Originally posted by redking
The Wall of the Faithless totally makes sense. Not only are there miracles in your everyday life in the realms, if you were around for the time of troubles, you may have actually met a god. The Wall of the Faithless is where Drizzt will end up. It is because he is arrogant and a disbeliever despite all the direct evidence given to him.
You're assuming WotC would allow him to die. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 03:20:21
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| Drizzt seems to have become one with everything, so he'll probably Transcend when he dies (or Mielikki will take him in, though he has turned his back on her). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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redking
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 03:48:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're assuming WotC would allow him to die.
Drizzt is already dead to me. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 04:36:01
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quote:
Originally posted by redking
The Wall of the Faithless totally makes sense. Not only are there miracles in your everyday life in the realms, if you were around for the time of troubles, you may have actually met a god. The Wall of the Faithless is where Drizzt will end up. It is because he is arrogant and a disbeliever despite all the direct evidence given to him.
The Wall of the Faithless makes sense as the result of Myrkul's cruelty, but it isn't a necessary or "just" thing. Like I said, what if someone acknowledged that yes, gods exist and are powerful, but didn't want to worship? That isn't the same as not believing, it's just minding your own business and not engaging with religion. Why shouldn't said person be allowed to just chill in the City of Judgement, or be left free to wander the planes (with all the risks tat entails, yes) once they're dead?
Far too many FR gods give you tons of reasons to NOT worship them, after all, given their behaviors. And many deities that you could actually be feel compelled to worship are minor and rather unknown. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 05:45:33
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I feel like you would have to try pretty hard to never engage with the gods at all, as many Faerunians will engage with them at some point (even though deeds and actions), or saying a quick prayer for luckk or something. You don't have to be pious.
Ed has stated that ending up on the Wall is rare, and while yes it exists, and yes, it is the fate for aomw, it's more of a bogeyman |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 07:28:29
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That's true, I know, but it's still cruel that there's a punishment for those who, for example, make a point to not pray, because they don't want to rely on power that isn't theirs and/o they don't understand. Then again, the Wall was designed by Myrkul to be a cruel punishment, and that's what I want to make clear. It isn't a force of nature, or an inevitable truth, or whatever. It's a sick joke a cruel god created out of sheer spite and vengefulness towards one of his priests, and that for some reason a more compassionate god decided to keep standing. There's potential for mystery and stories there: why did Kel actually decide to keep it? Ignore the weird and forced explanation provided in the ToT story, pretend that as a cover up for some more insidious truth that Kel discovered, and that would put any individual attempting to demolish the wall in front of a choice where there's no entirely good outcome.
NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer did that amazingly well (until the very end, when they went with the "cosmic balance" vague BS of an explanation). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Oct 2023 07:29:53 |
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redking
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 08:31:06
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I feel like you would have to try pretty hard to never engage with the gods at all, as many Faerunians will engage with them at some point (even though deeds and actions), or saying a quick prayer for luckk or something. You don't have to be pious.
Ed has stated that ending up on the Wall is rare, and while yes it exists, and yes, it is the fate for aomw, it's more of a bogeyman
The Wall of the Faithless exists for people like Drizzt. Drizzt has every reason to believe; he chooses not to believe. And like you say, you don't even have to be pious. It's relatively easy to get into whatever heaven is available to you in the Forgotten Realms setting.
Drizzt is a ranger that never prayed for spells. He has seen miracles and his wife is literally a prophet. Yet Drizzt hardened his heart against all the signs and wonders. This is why ending up in the Wall of the Faithless is rare, and also applies to Drizzt and people like him. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 19:08:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
every Realms fan was totally ok when they shoved christianity down our throats with the Wall of the Faithless
A search on this site (or anywhere on the web) will show that this simply isn't true. The Wall has sparked some of the most heated discussions here and elsewhere, and you might have been part of those. Either way, tons of Realms fans weren't ok with the Wall, just like tons of Realms fans aren't ok with RAS taking something he didn't create and acting like he owns the place.
Yeah, I may have talked against Kelemvor's garden decoration, but you don't see me saying that it's totally fine that RAS is thrashing religion now. That's the irony: people applaud when they bully atheists, but complain when it's the turn of the believers... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 19:17:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Shardnax
It's annoying because it's dumb and illogical. There is no concept of atheism in a fantasy setting with gods actively mucking about with the mortals. The character would be provably wrong. The concept wouldn't occur to low intelligence characters and moderate or above intelligence characters wouldn't make the mistake.
As dumb and illogical as the idea of punishing an atheist in a polytheistic religion. By that logic, everyone that decides to believe in one god above all others is denying the other gods, and should be mortared in the Wall because of that (a single god cannot do anything against the combined might of the rest). And what about people who ignore about the existence of the Kara-Turan gods? They are faithless from that point of view.
But here we are...
Also, look at real world politheistic religions. None of them have punishments for people who don't believe in the gods. Only monotheistic religions do that, and I don't think the writers of the novels at the time were Muslims or Jews. So, they shoved us Christianity up our throats, but it's totally fine because it's 2e. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Shardnax
Acolyte
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 19:21:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The Wall of the Faithless makes sense as the result of Myrkul's cruelty, but it isn't a necessary or "just" thing. Like I said, what if someone acknowledged that yes, gods exist and are powerful, but didn't want to worship? That isn't the same as not believing, it's just minding your own business and not engaging with religion. Why shouldn't said person be allowed to just chill in the City of Judgement, or be left free to wander the planes (with all the risks tat entails, yes) once they're dead?
Far too many FR gods give you tons of reasons to NOT worship them, after all, given their behaviors. And many deities that you could actually be feel compelled to worship are minor and rather unknown.
Why is it cruel? They've made their choice. Lack of knowledge would be another matter but, the deities would probably sort that out.
"Cosmic balance" makes enough sense, the portfolio and mortals are power. You wouldn't potentially decrease your power and leave yourself more vulnerable to remove something entirely avoidable on the part of the mortals.
There's no requirement for following a major power is there? |
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Shardnax
Acolyte
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 19:56:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
And what about people who ignore about the existence of the Kara-Turan gods? They are faithless from that point of view.
It's jurisdictional as per Ring of Winter. If you're outside Kara-Tur and you're not from there it they don't lay claim. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 20:13:28
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| Kara-Tur and Mulhorand have their own gods and jurisdiction regarding the afterlife. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 21:20:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Shardnax
Why is it cruel? They've made their choice. Lack of knowledge would be another matter but, the deities would probably sort that out.
Why should avoiding prayer be punished? Why couldn't a person who doesn't worship (but obviously believes that the gods are real, because you can't believe otherwise, and who doesn't do anything against the gods), be left to wander the planes once they're dead? Or why can't they just chill around in the Fugue? They just minded their own business without jarming anyone.
Also, remember: the Wall is Myrkul's idea of getting back at some people through torture. It is cruel by design.
quote:
"Cosmic balance" makes enough sense, the portfolio and mortals are power. You wouldn't potentially decrease your power and leave yourself more vulnerable to remove something entirely avoidable on the part of the mortals.[/quote ]
It's not, it's a vague, incredibly lazy explanation that makes the whole thing into a weird racket, and instantly removes any kind of depth and mystery from the narratives that you could craft around why Kel chose to keep the Wall. I repeat, the Wall isn't a force of nature or an existential truth, it's Myrkul's creation. Jergal didn't have it, and things worked just fine.
[quote]
There's no requirement for following a major power is there?
Minor powers are often unknown to many. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Oct 2023 04:25:44 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 21:25:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
every Realms fan was totally ok when they shoved christianity down our throats with the Wall of the Faithless
A search on this site (or anywhere on the web) will show that this simply isn't true. The Wall has sparked some of the most heated discussions here and elsewhere, and you might have been part of those. Either way, tons of Realms fans weren't ok with the Wall, just like tons of Realms fans aren't ok with RAS taking something he didn't create and acting like he owns the place.
Yeah, I may have talked against Kelemvor's garden decoration, but you don't see me saying that it's totally fine that RAS is thrashing religion now. That's the irony: people applaud when they bully atheists, but complain when it's the turn of the believers...
There are many FR fans who spoke against the Wall being kept by Kel, me and you included. That's what I was trying to say. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Shardnax
Acolyte
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 22:15:33
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| Edit: On second thought, I'll let it be. |
Edited by - Shardnax on 27 Oct 2023 01:32:15 |
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Glacier's Edge coming later this year
