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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 02:20:56
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| So much for "my vision since the beginning"... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 11 Apr 2022 02:24:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 02:28:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
An action that kinda supports this is that the first thing they did was labeling all pre-5e work as racist (they literally put that label on the pdfs), even the books that offer a nuanced portrayal of the drow (like Ed's book).
They literally did NOT put that label on the pdfs. Here's the disclaimer on the product description page:
"We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."
That's a generic disclaimer used across the board, and it says the product in question may contain some common prejudices of the time -- but then goes on to say the product itself has not been changed. And from a quick glance at multiple recent pdf purchases, I can definitively say that the label is not on the pdf.
It's a CYA maneuver, not heaping blame on prior writers for anything. It's about as meaningful as the warning label on a bottle of cough syrup. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 02:39:20
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quote:
That's a generic disclaimer used across the board, and it says the product in question may contain some common prejudices of the time -- but then goes on to say the product itself has not been changed. And from a quick glance at multiple recent pdf purchases, I can definitively say that the label is not on the pdf.
I see, my bad about this.
quote:
It's a CYA maneuver, not heaping blame on prior writers for anything. It's about as meaningful as the warning label on a bottle of cough syrup.
I can't 100% agree on this, however. By putting the warning label on all older products, but exenting big 5e culprits like MToF from errata or from the same label (on the noline platforms for that material, like D&Dbeyond), the blame does appear shifted more towards the writers of the previous editions, and less towards the current team. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 11 Apr 2022 02:40:39 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 03:55:57
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That reminds me of reading this in DARKHOLD's opener even though it's not "official" content despite being Ed Greenwood's work and thus canonical (as far as I'm concerned):
"In this supplement, we’ve taken the opportunity to correct
a few historical issues, most notably in the portrayal
of one of the Zhentarim’s female leaders, Ashemmi. It
became clear during our research that Ashemmi embodied
several harmful tropes. One of our talented designers,
Sadie Lowry, has done a fantastic job of rewriting Ashemmi’s
story, granting her the agency and authority she
deserves. Similarly, while the Zhentarim is an evil organization
which participates in illegal activities, you won’t
find any representations of slavery or substance abuse in
this product. We hope you will approach these changes
with an open mind as we seek to tell stories that welcome
everyone to the table."
I'm not sure what they mean about Ashemmi.
But...the Zhents are bad guys. I can maybe understand if you don't want a player character faction involved in slavery but DRUGS is somehow verbatim? |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 03:57:12
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Chad zak??
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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redking
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 04:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
But...the Zhents are bad guys. I can maybe understand if you don't want a player character faction involved in slavery but DRUGS is somehow verbatim?
Our bad guys would never be into anything as terrible as slavery or drugs. Instead of being into evil stuff for PROFIT, our villains are into evil for evil's sake. Forget about versimilitude, this is what we are doing now.
By the way, this is "woke", since you object to the term. Most people treat other people respectfully and are not woke at all.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 04:34:45
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quote:
Our bad guys would never be into anything as terrible as slavery or drugs. Instead of being into evil stuff for PROFIT, our villains are into evil for evil's sake. Forget about versimilitude, this is what we are doing now.
By the way, this is "woke", since you object to the term. Most people treat other people respectfully and are not woke at all.
Again, woke to me means that you're not ignorant of systemic racism and abuses in society. It is a very positive statement and automatically makes me think anyone described as such is better written than the alternative.
I just don't ascribe to its coopting as an insult. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 11 Apr 2022 04:40:20 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 04:56:59
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That is indeed the origin of the term (at least from my understanding), but like many terms that get integrated into "mainstream" language, it has come to be used to often describe extreme left wing ideologies, and is often used now as a pejorative, or is just used incorrectly (including by myself, because it's used so commonly now whenever people are talking about diversity in media. I personally wouldn't call wanting more ethnic and sexual diversity in media being part of an extreme ideology, but this goes back to what I said earlier about people complaining it's being shoved in their face). Movies or books with these diversities are sometimes accused of appealing to the "woke" crowd (especially if said diversities weren't there before, like remaking a movie with a PoC cast, for example).
Wiki says it better:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke#:~:text=Woke%20(%2F%CB%88wo%CA%8Ak,American%20Vernacular%20English%20(AAVE)
In any case, I wouldn't ascribe "woke" to RAS, positive or negative. For example, some of his earlier works have been called a bit sexist, but I would argue his female characters are worse now than they were then. And using a utopian drow society (that has supposedly always been there) to promote your own atheism and show that, hey look, good drow while ignoring decades of nuance and goodly drow that were already there isn't woke, either, it's narcissism. He wants his stamp on everything drow, including their "evolution" from early D&D to modern day. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 11 Apr 2022 05:09:47 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 05:06:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
It's a CYA maneuver, not heaping blame on prior writers for anything. It's about as meaningful as the warning label on a bottle of cough syrup.
I can't 100% agree on this, however. By putting the warning label on all older products, but exenting big 5e culprits like MToF from errata or from the same label (on the noline platforms for that material, like D&Dbeyond), the blame does appear shifted more towards the writers of the previous editions, and less towards the current team.
They slapped it on everything, including the D20 Modern rulebook and Dragons of Mystery -- a book about the Heroes of the Lance, on Krynn.
Again, it's CYA, and that disclaimer says (regardless of the veracity of the claim) that they're trying to be better now. Why would they put that label on the current material when it was produced during the time they claim to be trying to be better?
It's not blame, it's "Hey, that earlier stuff may have something that we didn't think was a big deal at the time, but we're working on it now." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Apr 2022 05:07:29 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 05:30:42
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I dunno, I guess I'm willing to give Bob Salvatore some time before believing the NuDrow (for lack of a better name) are meant to be a lecture on atheism. Especially since I read the earlier works and it IS dropped heavily that Milekki is not the goddess saying all orcs must die but Lolth in disguise.
But yes, maybe Bob Salvatore did change his views on religion. I long loved his depiction of how Mielikki contrasted strongly with Lolth as well as Drizzt's talks about the importance of spirituality in his life. I just note that this could be set up for some subversions of tests of faith.
But he might actually be intending Drizzt to be an atheist from now on.
Re: Wokeness
I admit, part of this has to do with my own experiences as I've encountered a lot of extremely nasty uses of the term as a moderator for various geek forums. As a Star Trek fan, there was a rather particularly nasty backlash to the "wokeness" of DISCOVERY and PICARD that gradually revealed itself to be a cover for some virulent racism as well as misogyny on the part of some of the fans. Which was especially ironic given the franchise it represented.
I've also been given 1 star reviews by people who have mentioned my "agenda pushing" in my boioks and given I don't believe I HAVE pushed an agenda aside from having a couple of gay and trans characters in my books, I think it certainly puts me on the defensive. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 11 Apr 2022 05:37:55 |
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redking
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 06:21:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Re: Wokeness
I admit, part of this has to do with my own experiences
You might get better reactions from people if you refrained from strawmanning people as bigots or various -isms or -ists. In the vernacular, this is what "wokeness" means. Anyone that complains about bad storytelling in fiction is lambasted in bad faith as being outside acceptable norms. Don't like Bob Salvatore's crappy Sapphic fantasies playing out on the pages of Drizzt novels? You must hate lesbians. Brilliant. |
Edited by - redking on 11 Apr 2022 06:22:34 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 11:35:35
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quote:
You might get better reactions from people if you refrained from strawmanning people as bigots or various -isms or -ists. In the vernacular, this is what "wokeness" means. Anyone that complains about bad storytelling in fiction is lambasted in bad faith as being outside acceptable norms. Don't like Bob Salvatore's crappy Sapphic fantasies playing out on the pages of Drizzt novels? You must hate lesbians. Brilliant.
I'm sorry but you have to explain your position because the people I actually dealt with WERE bigots and very nasty ones who harrassed friends of mine. A lot of my experience here also came from being a moderator at Onyx Path Publishing and dealing with hate speech.
Please don't assume that people using the same word as you are necessarily sympathetic. I don't attribute anything to you but the use of "wokeness" as a negative has some unfortunate implications on the internet.
The magazine, Vox, actually talks about this: https://www.vox.com/culture/21437879/stay-woke-wokeness-history-origin-evolution-controversy
Is it wrong to wish people would use another word like, "Bad writing?" "Cringe?" "Crappy characters?" Not "Woke?" The retcons to Ashemmi in The Dark Hold book annoy me because they write out large chunks of her history and romance to make her more assertive but then for some reason wrote out Scyulla Darkhope.
But you know, I'll drop it. I don't want to cause any more distress on the net. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 11 Apr 2022 13:15:35 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 17:10:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I can maybe understand if you don't want a player character faction involved in slavery but DRUGS is somehow verbatim?
Verboten, is I believe the word you are looking for there. Yesterday's acceptable is today's questionable is tomorrow's forbidden. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 20:21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
It's a CYA maneuver, not heaping blame on prior writers for anything. It's about as meaningful as the warning label on a bottle of cough syrup.
I can't 100% agree on this, however. By putting the warning label on all older products, but exenting big 5e culprits like MToF from errata or from the same label (on the noline platforms for that material, like D&Dbeyond), the blame does appear shifted more towards the writers of the previous editions, and less towards the current team.
They slapped it on everything, including the D20 Modern rulebook and Dragons of Mystery -- a book about the Heroes of the Lance, on Krynn.
Again, it's CYA, and that disclaimer says (regardless of the veracity of the claim) that they're trying to be better now. Why would they put that label on the current material when it was produced during the time they claim to be trying to be better?
It's not blame, it's "Hey, that earlier stuff may have something that we didn't think was a big deal at the time, but we're working on it now."
Of course it's not an explicit "it's their fault". However, we can't pretend that exenting the 5e material, and only the 5e material (which gives a blanket "the drow are an evil race" portrayal) from this treatment, will give people the impression that the bad tropes are the domain of the authors who worked on D&D in the past. And by people I mean their new base, the very same that prompted them to change their approach to race in D&D. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Apr 2022 00:39:10 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 20:47:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I dunno, I guess I'm willing to give Bob Salvatore some time before believing the NuDrow (for lack of a better name) are meant to be a lecture on atheism.
I'm not sure the issue is just the lesson on atheism/religoon, more RAS being didactic to the core with his writing, and failing to create any compelling conflict. Complex themes are reduced to to platitudes and extremely trivialized situations. Like an utopian society with 0 internal problems, where everything happens because a wizard did it--including ulimited resources--and that is so awesome that people are ok with getting their memories of it erased just to protect it, that has the mightiest spellcasters AND warriors ever. This can't even be called narrative. And also, what should all this society even prove?
quote:
Especially since I read the earlier works and it IS dropped heavily that Milekki is not the goddess saying all orcs must die but Lolth in disguise.
Ok, but if your checkov gun still hasn't fired after 30 years and 40 books, that's a problem. Especially when Mielikki's new chosen (Catti) puts words like "kill orc babies" in her mouth, and she does nothing. Or if Lolth whispers things to her chosen pretending to be her for such a long time, and she doesn't even realize anything. Like, wtf? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 21:58:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I can maybe understand if you don't want a player character faction involved in slavery but DRUGS is somehow verbatim?
Verboten, is I believe the word you are looking for there. Yesterday's acceptable is today's questionable is tomorrow's forbidden.
The evils of multitasking. :)
I'm glad I have an editor with a big ruler. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 11 Apr 2022 22:00:09 |
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redking
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2022 : 17:26:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I admit my inclination is to give RA Salvatore the benefit of the doubt when it comes to Starlight Enclave as I'm inclined not to judge where a story is necessarily going before it's completed its story. It's entirely possible the vegan atheist cosmopolitan drow are going to reveal a horrible secret or be too good to be true.
I've already heard people speculate the "evil" Mielikki advice from Cattie Brie is going to turn out to be Lolth in disguise because it's always Lolth in disguise.
This is where I'm leaning too. I think the city of Callidae might be in the initial stages of Lolth's corruption, or how she weasels her way into a society and twists it to evil. Plus, I don't know why you would write about a utopia because there would be no conflict or story there.
I've included several passages of Relentless and Starlight Enclave that make me think something is not right with Callidae:
"The most basic understanding of the truth of the Lolthian drow: The only thing that is ever obvious from the Demon Queen of Spiders is, that which is obvious is not." [Relentless, page 156]
This is a theme that kept showing up repeatedly in Relentless, but makes me wonder about the obviousness of the "utopia".
"She was a manifestation of malevolence, an infection. Lolth was a bitter bit of a reasoning being promoting pride and envy, greed and power, but nothing more. She was a whispered internal lie coaxing the speaker and listener, one and the same, into a deepening gloom." [Relentless, page 390]
Pride and power show up a few times that made me wonder if there is a connection.
"I assure you, you do not want to feel the bite of an aevendrow weapon. That last sentenced rocked Catti-brie back on her heels. She wasn't sure that Ilina had meant it as a threat, but she also wasn't sure that Ilina hadn't…" [page 239]
"He didn’t know the details, of course, or what a muskox might be, or Hollico for that matter, but that wasn’t the real source of his confusion. No, it was the pride, the welcoming pride, this inquisitor whose name he did not know had just relayed to him." [Starlight Enclave, page 253]
"The bets wagered on their sports are not for gold, but for servitude. Chores to be done or something as simple as a back rub or kiss." [Starlight Enclave, page 281]
"From this moment forward, you will speak only when told to speak, and anything else will be answered with punishment." [Starlight Enclave, page 296]
Maybe I am reading too much into various passages, but I think we're seeing how Lolth gets a populace under her thumb. These little steps, eventually lead to the "deepening darkness" of a Menzoberranzan type society. Or I'm totally wrong, but I like to think this is the initial stages of the "infection" of Lolth.
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redking
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2022 : 04:42:06
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Lolth has been referred to as a disease or infection in a previous Drizzt novel as well. I don't really perceive those passages in the way that you do. For example, the utopian drow city has progressed beyond the need for crude money, so bets cannot be for gold by default. As for the apparent threat, Jarlaxle, Cattie-Brie etc have been detained by what are effectively the aevendrow cops. There really isn't a 'nice' way to do it and its worse in any modern Western state in real life (supposedly the most progressive states on the planet). Ditto on being told to be silent. Any utopia can easily be ruined by outsiders that are not down with the program.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2022 : 04:57:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
These little steps, eventually lead to the "deepening darkness" of a Menzoberranzan type society. Or I'm totally wrong, but I like to think this is the initial stages of the "infection" of Lolth.
Considering that WotC accepted these 2 societies (aeven and loren) to paint the drow as no longer evil, and that their announcement was accompanied by statements like "people believed that the drow served Lolth for ages, but now they're understanding that's false", and by RAS flaunting a vision of non-evil drow civilizations (that he stated to be his, even though non-evil drow civilizations were introduced in FR hisotry decades before him, with Miyeritar and with Eilistraee's society, which made he go full reactionary mode). I honestly doubt that RAS is going to show Lolth's corruption or whatever, because that would defeat the goal of designing these drow societies.
Heck, they're even ignoring all Lolth drow societies that aren't Menzo (they're saying that Lolth=Menzo, and that *the Lolthites are a minority*), and warped the history of the FR drow to fit a trivialized vision. You can find these announcements in the "Summer of Drizzt" thing from last year, as well as in some of the dragon+ articles from last years.
Also, the BBEG in this series are the Slaadi, for some reason. All the bad things revolve around them, including the corruption illness thingy that they can get (in before it's revealed that in truth it was Lolth pulling strings, because we have no imagination, so everyone and everything must be tied to her in some far-fetched, and sometimes outright dumb, way).
quote:
I don't know why you would write about a utopia because there would be no conflict or story there.
Exactly, this description perfectly fits Starlight Enclave. Trivial (or artificial) conflict is honestly one of the recurring problems in RAS' writing.
quote:
"The bets wagered on their sports are not for gold, but for servitude. Chores to be done or something as simple as a back rub or kiss."
This could be a good way to discuss the weak points of a society with infinite resources. It could be used for scenes centered around something like: "when you have magic that can do literally everything, gold and resources become meaningless. So, the only valuable thing becomes power over others, and this can lead to decadence (note that I'm not saying that having resouces for all would be a bad thing, but when you write a novel, you have to take in consideration all possible consequences of your premise, and show them and how to deal with them in relation to your thematic viewpoint, otherwise you're writing a strawman).
Too bad RAS demolishes the possible decadence by pointing out that the aevendrow party hard but work just as hard. Which, with magic being able to create whatever resource, amounts to trying to have your cake and eat it too. Mary Sue societies and all. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Apr 2022 05:02:29 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2022 : 22:28:50
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A bit on the random side, but since RAS has been given editorial requirements to link adventure paths to his fiction, I wonder if Wizards is working on a Rod of Seven Parts adventure due to Ygorl and the Wind Dukes being mentioned.
Back to the Aevendrow, it's more than possible I've read into things a bit too much and it has no relation to Callidae. "What-if" scenarios have always been a favorite of mine. I can't really find much information on Ygorl unfortunately, aside from what's showed up in printed sourcebooks. |
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redking
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2022 : 09:54:45
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WotC has really opened a can of worms by claiming that Orcs were really a racial stand-in for real human beings. Unlike what WotC says about Orcs, I have never seen mainstream media figures call Black people Orcs, ever. Since the Ukraine War, I see Russians being called Orcs by blue checkmark media types on a regular basis.
https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1520283309540089857
Its sad. And its happened again with the drow, with Bob Salvatore's full backing. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2022 : 03:52:52
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| As much as I would LOVE for Callidae to be a place where a mask of perfection hides some deep darkness, unfortunately it's pretty much a given that that isn't the case, unless sometime down the line a different author retcons all of it. There isn't any indication in the text (yet), but RAS has a tribute in the beginning of Starlight Enclave where he hopes that his children find a place like Callidae, plus what others have already said about WotC using this as a way to introduce new goodly drow societies. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2022 : 05:15:59
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
RAS has a tribute in the beginning of Starlight Enclave where he hopes that his children find a place like Callidae,
He philosophized about "engineers of society" not deserving any trust, but he apparently fancies himself one--while having 0 knowledge of the field, as usual (not that you need any to see the gigantic flaws in his idea. I mean, infinite resources)? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 May 2022 05:16:35 |
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redking
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2022 : 09:40:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
He philosophized about "engineers of society" not deserving any trust, but he apparently fancies himself one--while having 0 knowledge of the field, as usual (not that you need any to see the gigantic flaws in his idea. I mean, infinite resources)?
It literally has to be infinite resources, because resource competition engenders "hate" and conflict. In order to strawman the other societies of the Forgotten Realms (including the Lolthian drow) as lacking, Bob needed to come up with a bulletproof reason that the utopian drow have progressed beyond any motive for conflict - Star Trek style infinite resources.
Not only are the Lolthian drow evil in this scenario, but ALL Forgotten Realms societies, because instead of choosing infinite resources, they chose conflict. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2022 : 16:32:16
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Yeah, I see. The point was that his philosphizing about societies is childish *at best*, because infinite resources is not feasible in any believable scenario, at least for the foreseeable future. So what's even the point of basing your whole "moral lesson" on that? Even in a best case scenario, like fusion becoming a thing at last, and giving us access to incredible amounts of clean energy, that still wouldn't be infinite resources. There would still be competition over resources, and one of the aspects that make fantasy societies worth the narrative effort is: "how does this society solve the issue of competing for resources?"
But this requires to do research, and build the fantasy aspect off it. You choose a "what if?" that is meaningful to your theme, you think about the problems and consequences that come from it, you *research* about the problems and consequences it would create, and you use all that to build conflict that respects the theme, based on things that aren't just out of the wazoo. And those are interesting because, at their core, despite all the fantasy exterior, they're grounded in reality and in a real issue. The fantasy becomes *believable*, one of the key aspects to respect in any story.
If you don't want to do this kind research, then just don't focus your story on this aspect. Choose a different apsect (which will require research anyway, though a different kind).
Of course, in response to this problem, RAS proved to have no respect for his craft by coming up with a solution like: "infinite resources... 'Cuz a wizard did it. Lol. See what awesome society we could have, if only we somehow chose to have infinite resources?" You can't trivialize an immensely complex problem (both from a practical and moral standpoints) into this shit, and expect your opinion to be taken seriously. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 May 2022 20:20:27 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2022 : 20:14:33
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| That's a little much. Can we tone down the language? Critique the work all you want, but let's try to keep the discussion somewhat less harsh, please. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2022 : 20:21:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's a little much. Can we tone down the language? Critique the work all you want, but let's try to keep the discussion somewhat less harsh, please.
Sure, toned down my previous reply, let me know if it's still too much. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Erikor
Seeker
Norway
60 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2022 : 00:02:29
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I have a question/problem with Starlight Enclave. It was cool that a primordial is trapped in Gauntlgrym. It's been a while since I read the book but didn't they find another primordial? I thought they were rare and only a very few still existed on that plane. Kinda weird that the same people would find another one.
Please correct me if I'm wrong though, like I said, it's been a while since I read the book. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2022 : 20:26:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Erikor
I have a question/problem with Starlight Enclave. It was cool that a primordial is trapped in Gauntlgrym. It's been a while since I read the book but didn't they find another primordial? I thought they were rare and only a very few still existed on that plane. Kinda weird that the same people would find another one.
Please correct me if I'm wrong though, like I said, it's been a while since I read the book.
It's not clear at this point, the people of Callidae believe that the glacier is an entity called Qadeej. The four that traveled near it (Jarlaxle, Zak, Entreri and Catti) felt that it had an enormous presence like the primordial Maegera. It's not clear either way, but it is clear that it Qadeej is a separate entity from Ygorl, and that the glacier is very much "alive". |
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Starlight Enclave is disappointing
