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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
 Posted - 23 May 2021 : 20:25:33
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Wow. For years I thought nothing could be worse than some of the late 3E and 4E lore.
I stand corrected.
Just a couple days ago I finished Relentless, and it was really jinky - particularly around Gromph's daughter, Yvonnel Baenre. But this, just wow.
I really miss Elaine Cunningham and Liriel. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 20:29:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I really miss Elaine Cunningham and Liriel.
Liriel is my favorite drow character in the Realms (though I do really like Jarlaxle, as well).
Liriel's personality really appeals to me, and her personal journey towards rejecting drow society is far more believable to me than any others we've seen. I think her story should be a benchmark for any tale of someone rejecting everything they've even known to pursue a different path. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 20:33:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
@John, if you don't see anything wrong with what RAS did, then that's on you. But he's been squalid and dismissive to a lot of his colleagues, whose work he eagerly used to get where he is. I even made an example of what it'd look like if someone like Ed tried to do what RAS did, to put it in perspective.
If he had just come up with these drow cities and said "hey people, look these new drow cultures that I made", I honestly wouldn't have cared. It was the attempt to make it look like the work of others didn't exist first, by entirely excising and retconning it (explained it abundantly), and then being so dismissive in the interview, that made me write what I did. He's a creative artist, but he did some really bad stuff as a person.
Honestly, if it wasn't for the "everything you know is wrong!" approach, I'd not be bothered as much. If the hidden city of ice drow was a recent discovery, and it was explained as something like a bunch of Ilythiiri renegades who split off during the Crown Wars, then I would have liked the idea. Maybe we could even make some connection betwixt them and lost population of Auseriel.
And forest-dwelling drow have been a thing for a while. Again, we could go with the Ilythiiri renegades who split off during the Crown Wars forming the earliest groups, and have drow fleeing Lolthite cities to supplement their numbers. Maybe play up some tensions between the Vhaeraun-worshipping ones and ones that are more inclined to follow the Seldarine... And/or maybe one of the Seldarine has a more neutral aspect these greenshadows could embrace -- someone with more of a "living in the forests" and "returning to what we once were" vibe than Eilistraee. I like Eilistraee, and all, but I think more options for divine representation could help.
The Loren could also come from survivors of Miyeritar, so you could have both Eilistraee *and* the Seldarine as faiths there. But honestly, given the position, it'd be more likely for the Aeven to have formed from Miyeritari (it's the closest ancient drow nation, even though it's still far) and have ties to Eilistraee, and the Loren to have come from Ilythiiri splinter factions.
Regardless of the origins, though, nothing says that those cities couldn't include more than one faith/culture that opposes Lolth: basically, Eilistreee, Vhaeraun, and some of the more drow-friendly Seldarine having presence in the cities at the same time. A bit like Sshamath.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 May 2021 20:37:12 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 20:36:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I really miss Elaine Cunningham and Liriel.
Liriel is my favorite drow character in the Realms (though I do really like Jarlaxle, as well).
Liriel's personality really appeals to me, and her personal journey towards rejecting drow society is far more believable to me than any others we've seen. I think her story should be a benchmark for any tale of someone rejecting everything they've even known to pursue a different path.
Agreed, and that's because it's based on personal goals and motivations, whose pursuit led Liriel to learn new stuff and reconsider a lot of her beliefs.
It's not that Drizzt's approach is wrong, but Liriel feels much more human. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 May 2021 20:41:21 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 20:43:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And for the love of Lurue, I wish WotC would stop pretending that Menzoberranzan is the only drow city in the Underdark. They're reinforcing the monolithic nature of drow society while trying to change it.
I would have been much happier if Wizards had just quietly dropped drow from any future products (the way they have neglected so many other aspects of the setting). Doubling down on drow content in order to correct the mistakes of the past, or whatever the heck it is they think they're doing, is not the way to go about it. It's not even the Summer of Drizzt yet, and I am already suffering from drow fatigue. I'm sure I'm not alone in this. And it's all the more frustrating because drow are already over-exposed and a lot of aspects of the Forgotten Realms still haven't received any attention in 5E yet (the Vilhon Reach, the Unapproachable East, the Shining South, etc.).
I hope this "Summer of Drizzt" is followed by a ten-year moratorium on all things drow-related. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 20:44:21
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| Elaine's always been brilliant with character-driven stories. I would happily pre-order anything she writes, D&D or otherwise. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 20:48:44
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Am I the only one optimistic about this? I was expecting way worse. This seems more addictive then subtractive. And at least it has every one talking and energized and more passionate then I've seem them in a long time.
I'm willing to keep an open mind, although I reserve the right to be pissed later if they go too far.
But for now I seat and watch. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 20:54:40
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| They're erasing all the elf/drow history, all drow cities aside from Menzo (their stated assumption is that Lolthites only exist in Menzo), and minimizing even more all the non-Lolth drow deities&faiths. How is this adding? This is about limiting everything drow to RAS' stuff. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 21:08:11
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quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
Wow. Just wow. I've seldom seen this kind of venom spewed at a creative artist.
My first thought was "I'd better revise the words 'creative artist' before I post—because apparently the majority of Candlekeepers will treat it as an unconscionable provocation to use those words to describe RAS." That's a sad, sad thing.
My second thought was something along the lines of "Forget it, John—it's Candlekeep." (A la the final line of Chinatown.)
But then I had a third thought.
My third thought is that this thread has been valuable to me, because it's clarified something: this site is, has been for quite some time, and probably always will be, two things at once—an irreplaceable trove of invaluable lore for my favorite fictional world; and the most overwhelmingly negative fanbase I've ever encountered.
I can't remember the last time I saw a thread on this site about any new D&D or FR product at all that wasn't at least 90% griping.
Now, to be clear, half the time I agree with that griping.
And half the time I don't.
But when I don't, there's no point expressing that, because the negativity will prevail. Anyone who even kinda sorta likes any of WotC or RAS do with the Realms is going to be shouted down and driven off.
Man oh man, do I love being able to look up deep lore here. But when it comes to anything to do with the current Realms, it's an unceasing whirlwind of scorn and negativity.
This thread is particularly vile due to its incessant personal attacks—but really, negativity is basically the official tone of the website.
And I've realized it's not beneficial to me to remain engaged with it.
It's ironic that the site that condones this sort of thing is the one that is still frequented by several of the best FR creators (interacting with whom is another silver lining I'll miss).
But the fact is that there are other places where FR fans gather, places where the range of viewpoints isn't quite so monolithic, and where it isn't considered acceptable behavior to spew vicious ad hominem vituperation at an FR creator for pages on end.
Maybe I'll see some of you there.
You should check out the Drizzt group and the Forgotten Realms Archives on Facebook, I think you'd be a great fit there. In the former, anyone who disagrees with Drizzt being the most awesome character ever will receive death threats, and in the latter, anything that's even slightly not a praise of RAS will get actioned. :3 |
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John Daker
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 21:21:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
You should check out the Drizzt group and the Forgotten Realms Archives on Facebook, I think you'd be a great fit there. In the former, anyone who disagrees with Drizzt being the most awesome character ever will receive death threats, and in the latter, anything that's even slightly not a praise of RAS will get actioned. :3
Is this the kind of comment that proves a diversity of viewpoints is welcome here at Candlekeep, Wooly Rupert? |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 21:48:25
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quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
Anyone who even kinda sorta likes any of WotC or RAS do with the Realms is going to be shouted down and driven off.
For what it's worth, I like Drizzt and Salvatore's books -- I'm reading one now -- and I don't feel like a minority here. Yes, we've heard some strong criticism in this thread, but if people criticize something I enjoy, I don't get bent out of shape. I just listen to what they have to say and try to see things from their perspective. |
Edited by - HighOne on 23 May 2021 21:49:12 |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 22:04:52
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Diversity of viewpoints are welcome here obviously. But people at Candlekeep are heavy FR lore enthusiasts and obviously have strong opinions on the development of the Forgotten Realms setting. Afaik it does seem most people here are FR fans from 1st/2nd edition eras, then 3rd edition (like myself) and then a few of 4e, and not that many that are overly enthusiastic about 5e, since there is so little being done that is fresh and new, and there is very little involvement from classic FR designers, except now of course for RAS. I may be pleasantly surprised if RAS actually does manage to weave these ideas of his into FR's already written lore regarding the Crown Wars, the Descent of the Drow, and the Dark Seldarine. I really hope he doesn't ignore the existence of other Dark Seldarine deities now that he is going to unveil societies of drow that don't worship Lolth.
Honestly I quite like RAS' books, although for me they are popcorn entertainment more than anything else. Though Drizzt has always been one of my least favourite characters in RAS FR books, but hey, he's a "straight-man" and such characters are usually kind of boring since they are kind of meant to represent the reader. He's not an exciting, interesting or colourful character like Jarlaxle, Zaknafein, etc. nor in my mind a particularly convincing "redeemed" drow character, and he can at times get overbearingly sanctimonious. He has an almost "paladin" sense of ethics that doesn't make any sense being formed independently in a rough environment like Menzoberranzan. Which is why I like Zaknafein since he wants something better than his world offers, but he grudgingly realizes the limitations of his environment, and also despite his good nature (for a drow) he also harbours the prejudices and suspicions a drow ought to have simply from their upbringing. A drow as naive as Drizzt ought to have died a long time ago, imho. |
Edited by - deserk on 23 May 2021 22:05:43 |
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John Daker
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 22:09:12
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Well, I appreciate hearing the previous two comments very much.
I was just pointing out that W.R. had reassured me that no, of course people who express less than total disdain for WotC and Drizzt don't get driven away, and right away someone else pops up to say I should leave and go to another group where I "would be a great fit" because they like to threaten people's lives there. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 22:20:03
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Diversity of viewpoints are welcome here obviously. But people at Candlekeep are heavy FR lore enthusiasts and obviously have strong opinions on the development of the Forgotten Realms setting. Afaik it does seem most people here are FR fans from 1st/2nd edition eras, then 3rd edition (like myself) and then a few of 4e, and not that many that are overly enthusiastic about 5e, since there is so little being done that is fresh and new, and there is very little involvement from classic FR designers, except now of course for RAS.
I think it's more a generational thing. We don't see more 5E-oriented fans here because they tend to be younger, and younger people don't use web-based forums for the most part. They use modern social media platforms -- Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, etc.
It's the same with the game's designers. Ed, Chris Perkins, Mike Mearls, Jeremy Crawford -- they all use Twitter and Facebook to interact with fans, driving even more people to those platforms instead of web forums.
I could go on and on about why this is a bad thing, but meh... It is what it is. |
Edited by - HighOne on 23 May 2021 23:03:06 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 22:36:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
You should check out the Drizzt group and the Forgotten Realms Archives on Facebook, I think you'd be a great fit there. In the former, anyone who disagrees with Drizzt being the most awesome character ever will receive death threats, and in the latter, anything that's even slightly not a praise of RAS will get actioned. :3
WotC doesn't dance to the tune of Bob Salvatore, WotC calls the shots - always has done. The Neverwinter quadrilogy was written to promote the Neverwinter Campaign Setting - Bob was quite public at the time about wanting to move away from Drizzt and write the prequels about Jarlaxle and Zaknafein. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 23:34:43
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quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
You should check out the Drizzt group and the Forgotten Realms Archives on Facebook, I think you'd be a great fit there. In the former, anyone who disagrees with Drizzt being the most awesome character ever will receive death threats, and in the latter, anything that's even slightly not a praise of RAS will get actioned. :3
Is this the kind of comment that proves a diversity of viewpoints is welcome here at Candlekeep, Wooly Rupert?
Why don't you re-read the comment? This was a response to your "But the fact is that there are other places where FR fans gather, places where the range of viewpoints isn't quite so monolithic, and where it isn't considered acceptable behavior to spew vicious ad hominem vituperation at an FR creator for pages on end." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 23:37:32
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quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
Well, I appreciate hearing the previous two comments very much.
I was just pointing out that W.R. had reassured me that no, of course people who express less than total disdain for WotC and Drizzt don't get driven away, and right away someone else pops up to say I should leave and go to another group where I "would be a great fit" because they like to threaten people's lives there.
No one told you to leave. You're painting us as some horribly negative group, alone among FR communities for having strong opinions, and someone was pointing out that there are groups out there where there actually are the things you're describing -- monolithic opinions and strong negativity towards any dissent.
I myself got banned from one of those Facebook groups for daring to list some of the issues with the War of the Spider Queen series. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 23:53:39
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Diversity of viewpoints are welcome here obviously. But people at Candlekeep are heavy FR lore enthusiasts and obviously have strong opinions on the development of the Forgotten Realms setting. Afaik it does seem most people here are FR fans from 1st/2nd edition eras, then 3rd edition (like myself) and then a few of 4e, and not that many that are overly enthusiastic about 5e, since there is so little being done that is fresh and new, and there is very little involvement from classic FR designers, except now of course for RAS.
Exactly. Most of us here are lore junkies, and more lore -- and material that adheres to prior lore -- is what we want.
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Honestly I quite like RAS' books, although for me they are popcorn entertainment more than anything else. Though Drizzt has always been one of my least favourite characters in RAS FR books, but hey, he's a "straight-man" and such characters are usually kind of boring since they are kind of meant to represent the reader. He's not an exciting, interesting or colourful character like Jarlaxle, Zaknafein, etc. nor in my mind a particularly convincing "redeemed" drow character, and he can at times get overbearingly sanctimonious. He has an almost "paladin" sense of ethics that doesn't make any sense being formed independently in a rough environment like Menzoberranzan. Which is why I like Zaknafein since he wants something better than his world offers, but he grudgingly realizes the limitations of his environment, and also despite his good nature (for a drow) he also harbours the prejudices and suspicions a drow ought to have simply from their upbringing. A drow as naive as Drizzt ought to have died a long time ago, imho.
Zaknafein was interesting to me. I love Jarlaxle. And I read that Sundering book RAS wrote -- I really liked what he was doing with Regis, in that book.
My biggest issue has long been the constant focus on Drizzt. I've been complaining about that since before I was banned from the WotC forums.
Think about that, for a second: I've been wanting to see a focus on just about anyone else since like 2004. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 May 2021 23:55:19 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 00:00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Man, I am about ready to put my D&D stuff in boxes (don't want to get rid of them, just in case) and walk away for a while, remaining on the margins due to a couple of D&D-related things I am involved in.
And yes, I am aware I can ignore the changes. They still make me want to walk away for a while.
I was there in 1999, during the 3E playtests. And again in 2017. And again this year, with all the recent politically-driven lore changes. But I think I've finally accepted the fact that Wizards is not designing D&D for me anymore. They are designing it for a new market that wants very different things.
I can still enjoy the game, but I know now not to expect anything from future releases.
It's occasionally important to remember that older versions of D&D don't become obsolete any more than classical music becomes obsolete despite the constant influx of new(er) music.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I really miss Elaine Cunningham and Liriel.
Liriel is my favorite drow character in the Realms (though I do really like Jarlaxle, as well).
Liriel's personality really appeals to me, and her personal journey towards rejecting drow society is far more believable to me than any others we've seen. I think her story should be a benchmark for any tale of someone rejecting everything they've even known to pursue a different path.
Agreed, and that's because it's based on personal goals and motivations, whose pursuit led Liriel to learn new stuff and reconsider a lot of her beliefs.
It's not that Drizzt's approach is wrong, but Liriel feels much more human.
Well, there's the problem.
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 00:11:28
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quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
Well, I appreciate hearing the previous two comments very much.
I was just pointing out that W.R. had reassured me that no, of course people who express less than total disdain for WotC and Drizzt don't get driven away, and right away someone else pops up to say I should leave and go to another group where I "would be a great fit" because they like to threaten people's lives there.
Speaking only for myself, yet as someone who has been with the Realms since before the original 1E old gray box, change tends to be disliked. The longer you're around, change builds and builds. And with 4E and 5E the designers at WotC have made some pretty big lore changes indeed. This feels like a pretty big one, honestly, at least for the drow.
Novel readers also tend to have different wants and likes than gamer-consumers, and even gamer-consumers have shifted in their priorities. If I DM now for a young group of gamers, they like quick one-shot adventures or short campaigns, and character builds tend to be wild with huge party diversity. But in my personal Realms-world 1E-ish campaign, us older players (age 40-55 btw) like VERY detailed, very history-rich long campaigns with characters that fit and blend well both with the world history and each other.
I like Drizzt novels as "light reads" these days and yet they have almost no influence on my Realmslore... but it is canon, and from a long-timer lore-hound, a lot of what works on a flash-bang level to bring in young gamers just doesn't jive well with prior established Realmslore.
When we old fossils dislike something, it's absolutely not just negativity for the sake of hating on WotC or particular designers or authors. (Unless it sometimes is, but you can kinda tell after a while.) I have to say, though, there has been an author or designer who truly earned the negative feedback. Knowing what I know of Salvatore, it's just... well...
Much of RAS's previous Drizzt series have been about staying mostly local to Menzoberranzan, eradicating the other dark Seldarine in his books, and frankly making Drizzt into a unique special-boy saint and philosopher. He never liked the other dark Seldarine and has said so. And that's fine, but at this point it's very, very repetitive. My personal take is that RAS has never been a deep Realmslore student and considers a lot of things like the Crown Wars to be bothersome.
I don't think this is entirely his idea, though. WotC wants a simplification of the Realms and has ever since before the 3E-4E transition. They probably had a big meeting, and figured out a trimming down of lore that also may reinvigorate his Drizzt novels. And importantly, WotC - and Salvatore - have not cared about Realmslore enthusiasts for a long time. From a company who wants a trim product, and a novel setting without too much fiddlesome history, big-lore IPs can interfere with creativity and novelty.
Salvatore's novel Relentless felt to me like a big departure from his usual fare. But it's been building in this trilogy, both with how he's treated Yvonnel #2 and Zak. Specifically, with these two, Drizzt is no longer the ONLY good boy, and that's a radical shift for Salvatore. Granted, there is still a "Drizzt is unique" in this book (see the final pages), but Zak and Yvonnel #2 are decidedly not evil. For a while, I though Yvonnel #2 was just studying the ridiculous surfacers for weaknesses, but even with evil Yvonnel #1's full memories, she is internally a good person. We also get to see Zak tortured by his own internal philosophy, just like Drizzt (although less so). Even Quenthel feels de-fanged, and she's been extremely evil.
The intended shift and setup is clear, and we now see it in this press release: big retcons incoming for the drow generally, some of which override known history with respect to the Spider Queen and prior drow cities. This is a major trimming down, with a buildup of alternative lore to benefit RAS's new novels. And make the game world approachable for new players.
So... it's just the way things are. We old timers love complicated historical lore. But -arguably - heavy complicated lore tends to impair sales of both the game and future novels. As such, we here are not the primary market for either. We will seek out and share the tiniest lore fragment that Ed Greenwood posts. We would like it if Ed had design control, but again their metrics at WotC favor a different model.
So we tend to be frustrated and cranky at times. As do all long-term followers and fans of any IP.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 24 May 2021 00:25:56 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 00:11:57
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Diversity of viewpoints are welcome here obviously. But people at Candlekeep are heavy FR lore enthusiasts and obviously have strong opinions on the development of the Forgotten Realms setting. Afaik it does seem most people here are FR fans from 1st/2nd edition eras, then 3rd edition (like myself) and then a few of 4e, and not that many that are overly enthusiastic about 5e, since there is so little being done that is fresh and new, and there is very little involvement from classic FR designers, except now of course for RAS. I may be pleasantly surprised if RAS actually does manage to weave these ideas of his into FR's already written lore regarding the Crown Wars, the Descent of the Drow, and the Dark Seldarine. I really hope he doesn't ignore the existence of other Dark Seldarine deities now that he is going to unveil societies of drow that don't worship Lolth.
Honestly I quite like RAS' books, although for me they are popcorn entertainment more than anything else. Though Drizzt has always been one of my least favourite characters in RAS FR books, but hey, he's a "straight-man" and such characters are usually kind of boring since they are kind of meant to represent the reader. He's not an exciting, interesting or colourful character like Jarlaxle, Zaknafein, etc. nor in my mind a particularly convincing "redeemed" drow character, and he can at times get overbearingly sanctimonious. He has an almost "paladin" sense of ethics that doesn't make any sense being formed independently in a rough environment like Menzoberranzan. Which is why I like Zaknafein since he wants something better than his world offers, but he grudgingly realizes the limitations of his environment, and also despite his good nature (for a drow) he also harbours the prejudices and suspicions a drow ought to have simply from their upbringing. A drow as naive as Drizzt ought to have died a long time ago, imho.
These aren't his, notice all the art already done for this cities and such, it wasn't done for a simple novel, this comes from the D&D team itself and is likely apart of a bigger agenda. They likely spent alot on that art, and I don't think its for MtG.
Someone else came up with these cities, RA Salvatore is just adding the fiction in and fleshing it out.
So its likely the potential tie ins to the Crown Wars era Drow Nations come from are no accident, its just fits too well, and I don't think its something RA Salvatore would come up with. There was a much bigger team invovled in this and all the art screams that. New novels get a cover and maybe a colourless maps, that's it usually, not this three ring circus, not abunch of new art, etc...
And its not for DA, which is setover 100 years in the past,these new Drow are just stepping into the light. Why is something that has me curious. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 00:18:23
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| I know that "Always x Evil" races/species are a part of D&D and that "Good" can occasionally be interpreted through some rather fanatical/zealous lenses ("Good" that is more often "Lawful Neutral" or even "Lawful Evil"), but the idea of Mielikki more-or-less calling for a genocide seems like a betrayal of the character. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 00:19:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I myself got banned from one of those Facebook groups for daring to list some of the issues with the War of the Spider Queen series.
Naughty lore-hamster, naughty!  |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 00:26:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
It's occasionally important to remember that older versions of D&D don't become obsolete any more than classical music becomes obsolete despite the constant influx of new(er) music.
Very important. I agree. But it is harder to find players when you're outside the mainstream. That's one reason why people constantly fight about the game's direction online: They want their preferred playstyle to be the mainstream.
That's also why I can never get too mad at the game's designers. They're at the center of a cacophony to rival Pandemonium itself, made up of thousands of voices screaming at them to design the game the way they (the voices) want. Whatever direction the designers take, someone is going to be ticked off. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 00:55:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Well, there's the problem.
.
I'll be blunt: this comes off as a sign that you don't know how stories are planned and written. A requisite of any barely decent story is the construction of empathy, at the very beginning of the story at that. This means that the reader must be on the same page as the character, feel what they feel, experience the world through the body and mind of said character, in a way that is as close as possible as the character experiences it, in order to understand the character, put themselves in their shoes, and"become the other".* That is the aim of immersive writing, and impliess that, regardless of what fantasy race or weird creature the character is, that character will use the human lenses, face human problems, have human goals/emotions/motivations.
That's all there is. The human lens is all that exists. Even for races as alien as a Warhammer 40k Ork (not the most convenient choice of protagonist, but still), their perspective that all that is good is war and nothing else matters is still a human perspective. Not one that's popular in most functional societies, but definitely something that humans can know and experience, and certainly nothing alien.
It's functionally impossible to make something that doesn't contain the human lens because that is the only lens through which anyone can view things. You can frame it as none human, you can flavour it however you like, but at the end of the day it will be related back to the human experience because that is all that both the reader and the writer have access to.
There is no alien experience to empathize with because we don't have contact with aliens, and even if we had, we'd still filtre them from the human lenses. In the end, all there is a different human experience to empathize with. Framing different human experiences as alien/non-human and inscrutable and uncomprehensible doesn't promote empathy, it causes the opposite, because it encourages people to label alternative experiences as foreign something that doesn't have to be empathized with, because it is alien. In short, it fails as a narrative device.
*Aside from that, at the beginning, the character must be painted as "the pole of good": this doesn't mean that they must be good, but that they must initially appear to the reader as a just character that is victim of unjust suffering. That's key to have the reader give half a f**k about the character. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 May 2021 01:50:53 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 01:12:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I myself got banned from one of those Facebook groups for daring to list some of the issues with the War of the Spider Queen series.
To be fair, you said:
"The War of the Spider Queen is horribly over-hyped, utterly pointless and nonsensical, and filled with mostly unlikable characters...The only reason the books were written is because WotC knew that slapping Salvatore's name on some drow books meant guaranteed sales. It wasn't to add anything to the series, it was purely a sales decision, and the quality of the story reflects that."
In a group where Bob Salvatore, Richard Lee Byers, Tom Reid, Richard Baker, Lisa Smedman, Phil Athans, and Paul Kemp could all see that you wrote that.
We welcome criticism but have an explicit rule against bashing. What you wrote wasn't criticism, it was bashing. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 24 May 2021 01:13:27 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 01:22:53
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I myself got banned from one of those Facebook groups for daring to list some of the issues with the War of the Spider Queen series.
To be fair, you said:
"The War of the Spider Queen is horribly over-hyped, utterly pointless and nonsensical, and filled with mostly unlikable characters...The only reason the books were written is because WotC knew that slapping Salvatore's name on some drow books meant guaranteed sales. It wasn't to add anything to the series, it was purely a sales decision, and the quality of the story reflects that."
In a group where Bob Salvatore, Richard Lee Byers, Tom Reid, Richard Baker, Lisa Smedman, Phil Athans, and Paul Kemp could all see that you wrote that.
We welcome criticism but have an explicit rule against bashing. What you wrote wasn't criticism, it was bashing.
...have you ever read a movie review? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 01:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I myself got banned from one of those Facebook groups for daring to list some of the issues with the War of the Spider Queen series.
To be fair, you said:
"The War of the Spider Queen is horribly over-hyped, utterly pointless and nonsensical, and filled with mostly unlikable characters...The only reason the books were written is because WotC knew that slapping Salvatore's name on some drow books meant guaranteed sales. It wasn't to add anything to the series, it was purely a sales decision, and the quality of the story reflects that."
In a group where Bob Salvatore, Richard Lee Byers, Tom Reid, Richard Baker, Lisa Smedman, Phil Athans, and Paul Kemp could all see that you wrote that.
We welcome criticism but have an explicit rule against bashing. What you wrote wasn't criticism, it was bashing.
...have you ever read a movie review?
Well it is possible many movie critics would get banned. *shrugs*
However Candlekeep does not need a fight between two moderators. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 01:28:06
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
...have you ever read a movie review?
Not out loud to the movie's director in the middle of their fan club, no. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 01:33:09
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I myself got banned from one of those Facebook groups for daring to list some of the issues with the War of the Spider Queen series.
To be fair, you said:
"The War of the Spider Queen is horribly over-hyped, utterly pointless and nonsensical, and filled with mostly unlikable characters...The only reason the books were written is because WotC knew that slapping Salvatore's name on some drow books meant guaranteed sales. It wasn't to add anything to the series, it was purely a sales decision, and the quality of the story reflects that."
In a group where Bob Salvatore, Richard Lee Byers, Tom Reid, Richard Baker, Lisa Smedman, Phil Athans, and Paul Kemp could all see that you wrote that.
We welcome criticism but have an explicit rule against bashing. What you wrote wasn't criticism, it was bashing.
I also listed specific concrete reasons. I detailed explicit issues with the series.
And I stand by the statement you quoted, as well. There was no point to the series -- all that came of it was Lolth was inexplicably more powerful. That's also the nonsensical part -- somehow, with Lolth auto-cannibalizing herself, more came out than what went in. Two plus two equaled five.
It was also nonsensical that a bunch of folks on the mortal plane were supposed to figure out what's happening in the divine realms by going to another spot on the mortal plane.
Had there been any point other than sales, they would have had some editorial direction and smoothed out issues like the draegloth being servile in one book and then openly contemptuous in the next. This wasn't the only abrupt change in character over the books, but it stood out the most for me.
And Salvatore's name wouldn't have been so prominent on the covers if it wasn't there specifically to be a selling point.
I listed all of these reasons. And I got a 24-hour ban -- with no warning! -- and then ignored by the moderators when I asked for justification. Yours is honestly the first actual response I've gotten, other than another moderator claiming -- years later -- that I was using profanity and attacking others. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 May 2021 01:34:39 |
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