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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 23 May 2021 : 12:01:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
This also has the effect of radically diminishing the importance of Lolth by essentially making her followers these weird isolationist cultists, while also basically contracting 'drow' as we know them to this incredibly narrow group consisting of essentially just Menzoberranzan.
Only good thing to come out of this. But, as I said, this should be the result of developing the natural consequences of the extremely farfetched premise of Lolth and the existence of other drow cultures and even deities who go out of their way to reach to the drow.
Introducing it as a retcon, rather than a development, is the wrong move.
Can't we just have our inexplicably massive and extremely evil cultures  ? I recognize the value in having some degree of (semi-plausible) sociology and economy to hold onto, but I'm not interested in the "Why are they so large in number?" any more than I am interested in "How does Mordor sustain their population when most of their terrain is inimical to livestock and agriculture?"
Lolth's society is plain stupid. I'm not talking about technical details, I'm talking about the whole society being an example of nonsensical worldbuilding, non-narrative, and wanting to have you cake and eat it too.
The problem is not evil, it's how idiotic that evil is. I've already discussed this in length in this thread, page 2 I believe, if you want to hear a better argument. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 May 2021 12:02:20 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 13:58:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
This also has the effect of radically diminishing the importance of Lolth by essentially making her followers these weird isolationist cultists, while also basically contracting 'drow' as we know them to this incredibly narrow group consisting of essentially just Menzoberranzan.
Only good thing to come out of this. But, as I said, this should be the result of developing the natural consequences of the extremely farfetched premise of Lolth and the existence of other drow cultures and even deities who go out of their way to reach to the drow.
Introducing it as a retcon, rather than a development, is the wrong move.
Can't we just have our inexplicably massive and extremely evil cultures ? I recognize the value in having some degree of (semi-plausible) sociology and economy to hold onto, but I'm not interested in the "Why are they so large in number?" any more than I am interested in "How does Mordor sustain their population when most of their terrain is inimical to livestock and agriculture?"
Lolth's society is plain stupid. I'm not talking about technical details, I'm talking about the whole society being an example of nonsensical worldbuilding, non-narrative, and wanting to have you cake and eat it too.
The problem is not evil, it's how idiotic that evil is. I've already discussed this in length in this thread, page 2 I believe, if you want to hear a better argument.
It appears that this is an irreconcilable difference of opinion. Well, if you're having fun with your revision, then by all means...carry on. I'm not genuinely invested in turning the tide in a broader sense - that's a losing battle - but I did want to toss my two coppers in the pot. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 14:08:11
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| My point was that there should have been a narrative development, in which a vast number of drow abandoned Lolth, and she was reduced to the fanatic cult that she's written like. Take the current lore to its natural consequence (rather than making design based on author bias), not make a revision. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 14:40:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
This also has the effect of radically diminishing the importance of Lolth by essentially making her followers these weird isolationist cultists, while also basically contracting 'drow' as we know them to this incredibly narrow group consisting of essentially just Menzoberranzan.
Only good thing to come out of this. But, as I said, this should be the result of developing the natural consequences of the extremely farfetched premise of Lolth and the existence of other drow cultures and even deities who go out of their way to reach to the drow.
Introducing it as a retcon, rather than a development, is the wrong move.
Can't we just have our inexplicably massive and extremely evil cultures ? I recognize the value in having some degree of (semi-plausible) sociology and economy to hold onto, but I'm not interested in the "Why are they so large in number?" any more than I am interested in "How does Mordor sustain their population when most of their terrain is inimical to livestock and agriculture?"
The answer to your second question's fairly simple; the plateau of Gorgoroth is only part of Mordor; the volcanic ash of Amon Amarth keeps Nurn fertile, where Sauron's slaves work the field.
Given Sauron's bureaucratic nature, maintaining supply lines would have been trivial for him. |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 14:54:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
This also has the effect of radically diminishing the importance of Lolth by essentially making her followers these weird isolationist cultists, while also basically contracting 'drow' as we know them to this incredibly narrow group consisting of essentially just Menzoberranzan.
Only good thing to come out of this. But, as I said, this should be the result of developing the natural consequences of the extremely farfetched premise of Lolth and the existence of other drow cultures and even deities who go out of their way to reach to the drow.
Introducing it as a retcon, rather than a development, is the wrong move.
I'm going to have to disagree here. Taking one of the Realms most iconic villains and reducing her accomplishments to deluding a handful of elves to build a cult city for her in the underdark. Compared to the Lolth we had even a few days ago, this 'new Lolth' is pretty much a joke, and by extension the rest of the Dark Seldarine look like even moreso since they can't best this cult god. IDK about you, but I think the narrative of the Dark Seldarine scheming against each other and Lolth works a lot better if Lolth is an actual goddess worth worrying about instead of some obscure elven cult goddess.
Chalk me down for one of those people who wants to more about Mordor's agriculture But what I always wanted was for Lolthite society itself to be a little bit more nuanced and diverse. I wanted to read more about how Lolthite religon adapts when they aren't the only game in town. Show me some cities outside Menzoberranzean without such extreme religious practices. Let me see more of the Lolth who commands her followers to stop killing each other when things get out of hand. There's a quote somewhere on this site I read from Elaine Cunningham talking about how she considered (as Azar put it) 'Mordor's agriculture' when she wrote the drow. That's the sort of philosophy I would have liked to see taken to expand the drow.
This does none of that. It just shoves Lolth and the drow in the corner and doubles down on their portrayal to promote these 'new and improved good drow'. Are they just trying to create Exandria 2.0 on Faerun? I don't see this being for me. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 15:16:14
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@TKU
I don't support the changes to what Lolth did in elven history. I do support taking the ridiculous premises of Lolthite society, and leading them to their natural consequence--aka, Lolth losing a massive number of followers as well as her hegemony, and other drow faiths and their respective cultures becoming more prominent.
Unless Lolth is changed into a character that actually makes sense, instead of being "demon drama queen#36, but we made her cult so big it's a whole society". Seriously, when you have whole societies based on stuff like "love is weakness" (not cults, sects, and whatever), you know you're entering clown territory. And Lolth could also change by interacting with the drow, with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, etc... not necessarily by retcon. Regardless, even in this case, she should still lose quite a lot of prominence in the process of adapting, and other drow cultures should gain prominence instead.
Basically, you can't have your cake (a massively "stupid evil" villain and an equally "stupid evil" society constantly plagued by infighting) and eat it too (make said society never fall and never face massive schisms, because of plot armor). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 May 2021 15:18:55 |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 15:25:42
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| I will definitely ignore this new lore if it turns out RAS doesn't show respect and acknowledge already published Realmslore about the Crown Wars and other drow societies and faiths. Also Menzoberranzan isn't even the oldest surviving Lolthite city in the Realms, nor the largest, which should be Guallidurth. And in that Sages and Mages podcast I did manage to get in a question about Guallidurth there and Ed said (paraphrasing) "Unlike Menzoberranzan, Guallidurth is fairly stable and resistant to change and civil strife, very much the 'old guard' type of a drow city" with the implications then being that the Menzoberranzyr drow are not wholly representative of the archetypical Lolthite drow society, and are in fact atypical in the sense of how extremely chaotic their society is and how often they have destructive house wars, civil wars, etc. |
Edited by - deserk on 23 May 2021 15:26:59 |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 15:31:09
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Even if he believes he created the drow for the Forgotten Realms, the timeline doesn't bear that out. The OGB (1987) mentions drow under the "Elves" heading and predates RAS's first Drizzt novel (granted just barely.)
I'll admit he added significantly to the lore around the dark elves (most of it the stuff I prefer to ignore, as it has issues others have already dealt with.) |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 15:59:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Canon has quite frankly been crap for over a decade and I'm sure most ignore at least some part of the post 3e canon.
Heck, I ignore most of 3E and large parts of 2E as well. The glut of expansions released during 2E were downright uninspired, if not ridiculous:
"What if Faerun shared a border with Mongolia?" THE HORDE!
"What if Faerun shared an ocean with South America?" MAZTICA!
"What if Faerun bordered Africa?" CHULT!
"What if Faerun had its own Far East?" KARATUR!
...and India, and Arabia, and --
Yeeeesh. Like, cool your jets, people. Toril did not need a region that is almost a 1:1 analogue of a real-life culture for every culture on Earth. Add in the fact that many of these expansions are downright offensive to modern sensibilities, and you have a lot of lore that needs ignorin'. |
Edited by - HighOne on 23 May 2021 16:42:18 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 16:10:47
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@Irennan
Yeah, I definitely would have liked to see Lolth have less of a monopoly on drow culture. Each of the other Dark Seldarine should have at least a single city of note to call their own, one that isn't pressed into the obscure corners of the lore. Bringing back the Vhaerunite presence in Cormanthor would be a start. It would be nice to have seen the Promenade as a legit stronghold and community to match its importance to Eilistraee's faithful.
In regards to the issue of the other members of the Dark Seldarine, what I would have liked to see the most would have been a return of all of the mixed-religion cities, because I always found that sort of idea pretty cool, and the cities where the clergy was weakened by the power of the wizards or merchant houses to the point of being ceremonial or just another religion some people choose to follow. See more of how they adapt to not being at the top for once. Do they practice a more moderate form of the dogma with allegories or pragmatic accommodations for the local culture? Males in the Priesthood? How high can they rise? Lolth just being part of the Pantheon that people worship alongside the rest? Some sort of heresy that worships the other members of the Dark Seldarine as aspects of Lolth herself?
I think there are/were plenty of avenues to expand her, and the groundwork for many was already laid in many cases with the older sourcebooks. This doesn't help that. The Lolthites are flatter than ever, and it stinks.
@deserk
IIRC the second book of WoTSQ had a merchant house taking out a Noble house in order to take its place, and instead of the Menzoberranzean method of 'no survivors' the merchant house had to present its case to the council of matrons to justify its actions and make a case for taking their place as a noble house. They even brought in a surviving member of the destroyed house to question her, something that would be a big no-no in Menzoberranzan. There also seemed to be a greater emphasis on capturing enemies from other drow cities as presitigous slaves rather than for sacrifice or killing them outright. Gave me the impression that the extreme bloodletting of Menzoberranzan was more of Menzoberranzan's shtick than a universal one, which I appreciated. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 17:24:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I wouldn't give a flying if RAS did that to his own characters and stuff. But warping characters created by others speaks volumes of him--as a person. He is so eager to shit on the work of the people without whom he wouldn't even be relevant. He didn't create the drow, he didn't create the Realms. He just created Menzoberranzan (and that's really dated worldbuilding). Yet, he acts like he owns everything. That's a not what an artist even barely worthy of respect does. You know what a respectful artist does? Build his own stuff to have his own vision (and in RAS' case, his personal stuff didn't do really well, so I guess he needs to let his personla bias influence the stuff that he wrote in the world of others, right?)
As for the wall, I don't mind it being gone, and WotC has already retconned it. However, I will thoroughly dislike RAS using the Wall to make all FR gods look like crap, because that's what he's likely going to do.
-This is exactly my opinion on the man/matter. I won't use names but I think maybe everyone will understand what I'm saying, but there's two different authors that deal with this same subject/race and their approaches are radically different, with the other one being extremely respectful- sometimes to a detriment, even- of the world being shares and the contributions of others. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 17:46:45
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Man, I am about ready to put my D&D stuff in boxes (don't want to get rid of them, just in case) and walk away for a while, remaining on the margins due to a couple of D&D-related things I am involved in.
And yes, I am aware I can ignore the changes. They still make me want to walk away for a while. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 17:58:58
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
I think there are/were plenty of avenues to expand her, and the groundwork for many was already laid in many cases with the older sourcebooks. This doesn't help that. The Lolthites are flatter than ever, and it stinks.
But see, all of that stuff is about the followers, not Lolth herself, and doesn't even require her followers to be a stupid evil society--on the contrary, it's stifled by her followers being stupid evil.
Before being able to explore those situations in a convincing manner, you'd need to throw all the nonsense like "love is weakness" and "loving your kid is a sin" out of the window. Let Lolth have *some* positive aspects, like enforcing an actual meritocracy (not the total crap she has now--backstabbing at will that many sources try to pass as an effective way for a soceity to become stronger), something that can make her society actually work. She doesn't need to be a total scam and a total wacko. Besides, her going from Araushnee, the Weaver of destinies dissatisfied with her being prevented from taking charge of her own destiny, and working to fulfill her ambitions, to "sadistic demon #27", without any explanation at all in the middle, btw, is underwhelming as f*ck. Basically, make her a compelling villain and something that is closer to an actual character, and less of a walking cliché.
A story in which she loses her grasp on the drow, and has to come to terms with her shortcomings, could be the catalyst of such a change, if we want to avoid retcons, but yeah, you get what I mean.
Ironically enough, this new version of Lolth doesn't do anything to improve the situation, as it suffers from the same exact problems as the older one. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 May 2021 18:02:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 18:03:08
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| I was always more interested in Sshamath and Eryndlyn, myself. Of course, one has been ignored and the other inexplicably nuked... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 18:03:42
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| And now both have been retconned out of existence. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 18:58:19
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Man, I am about ready to put my D&D stuff in boxes (don't want to get rid of them, just in case) and walk away for a while, remaining on the margins due to a couple of D&D-related things I am involved in.
And yes, I am aware I can ignore the changes. They still make me want to walk away for a while.
I was there in 1999, during the 3E playtests. And again in 2017. And again this year, with all the recent politically-driven lore changes. But I think I've finally accepted the fact that Wizards is not designing D&D for me anymore. They are designing it for a new market that wants very different things.
I can still enjoy the game, but I know now not to expect anything from future releases. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 19:08:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
That wouldn't fit the assignment. The assignment was to reveal that drow have never actually been a majority-evil race.
Why do you think there was an assignment, when RAS has literally said that WotC is doing what he wants?
He isn't to be defended. He was given free reign, and he decided to discard things based on his personal bias, to say that he created everything drow and that "this has always been the master plan, hurr durr. Can't you see how smart I am?".
Given his beef with the drow pantheon created by Ed (by his own admission), and his dogged rejection of anything drow not created by him, that he would throw away the work of others, and rain his ultra super awesome vision on the setting that he didn't create but that gave him those sweet $$, doesn't come as a surprise.
RAS says alot of things, he wants it to seem like this was his idea, but reading the main Dragon+ article on the Drow its clearly not, the idea doesn't even feel like something he's come up with. His job is to add the finer details and the fiction, the basic ideas and planes for these cities are from the D&D team.
Several of us have been trying to tell you this is less about RAS and more about real world politics impacting FR. These cities are part of the compromise between long term fans and woke twitter. Despite his blustering, RAS is just a pawn in all this. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 19:11:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
That wouldn't fit the assignment. The assignment was to reveal that drow have never actually been a majority-evil race.
Why do you think there was an assignment, when RAS has literally said that WotC is doing what he wants?
He isn't to be defended. He was given free reign, and he decided to discard things based on his personal bias, to say that he created everything drow and that "this has always been the master plan, hurr durr. Can't you see how smart I am?".
Given his beef with the drow pantheon created by Ed (by his own admission), and his dogged rejection of anything drow not created by him, that he would throw away the work of others, and rain his ultra super awesome vision on the setting that he didn't create but that gave him those sweet $$, doesn't come as a surprise.
RAS says alot of things, he wants it to seem like this was his idea, but reading the main Dragon+ article on the Drow its clearly not, the idea doesn't even feel like something he's come up with. His job is to add the finer details and the fiction, the basic ideas and planes for these cities are from the D&D team.
Several of us have been trying to tell you this is less about RAS and more about real world politics impacting FR. These cities are part of the compromise between long term fans and woke twitter. Despite his blustering, RAS is just a pawn in all this.
And its not just the Dragon, the last two Unearthed Arcana made major changes to the Dragonborn (splitting them up into 3 races each with their own subtypes), Kobolds,Hobgoblins, and adding 3 new races to FR. Big things are a foot and its going to be more then just the Drow. Part of its politics, part of its driven by synergy. |
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John Daker
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 19:15:05
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Wow. Just wow. I've seldom seen this kind of venom spewed at a creative artist.
My first thought was "I'd better revise the words 'creative artist' before I post—because apparently the majority of Candlekeepers will treat it as an unconscionable provocation to use those words to describe RAS." That's a sad, sad thing.
My second thought was something along the lines of "Forget it, John—it's Candlekeep." (A la the final line of Chinatown.)
But then I had a third thought.
My third thought is that this thread has been valuable to me, because it's clarified something: this site is, has been for quite some time, and probably always will be, two things at once—an irreplaceable trove of invaluable lore for my favorite fictional world; and the most overwhelmingly negative fanbase I've ever encountered.
I can't remember the last time I saw a thread on this site about any new D&D or FR product at all that wasn't at least 90% griping.
Now, to be clear, half the time I agree with that griping.
And half the time I don't.
But when I don't, there's no point expressing that, because the negativity will prevail. Anyone who even kinda sorta likes any of WotC or RAS do with the Realms is going to be shouted down and driven off.
Man oh man, do I love being able to look up deep lore here. But when it comes to anything to do with the current Realms, it's an unceasing whirlwind of scorn and negativity.
This thread is particularly vile due to its incessant personal attacks—but really, negativity is basically the official tone of the website.
And I've realized it's not beneficial to me to remain engaged with it.
It's ironic that the site that condones this sort of thing is the one that is still frequented by several of the best FR creators (interacting with whom is another silver lining I'll miss).
But the fact is that there are other places where FR fans gather, places where the range of viewpoints isn't quite so monolithic, and where it isn't considered acceptable behavior to spew vicious ad hominem vituperation at an FR creator for pages on end.
Maybe I'll see some of you there. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 19:26:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
That wouldn't fit the assignment. The assignment was to reveal that drow have never actually been a majority-evil race.
Why do you think there was an assignment, when RAS has literally said that WotC is doing what he wants?
He isn't to be defended. He was given free reign, and he decided to discard things based on his personal bias, to say that he created everything drow and that "this has always been the master plan, hurr durr. Can't you see how smart I am?".
Given his beef with the drow pantheon created by Ed (by his own admission), and his dogged rejection of anything drow not created by him, that he would throw away the work of others, and rain his ultra super awesome vision on the setting that he didn't create but that gave him those sweet $$, doesn't come as a surprise.
RAS says alot of things, he wants it to seem like this was his idea, but reading the main Dragon+ article on the Drow its clearly not, the idea doesn't even feel like something he's come up with. His job is to add the finer details and the fiction, the basic ideas and planes for these cities are from the D&D team.
Several of us have been trying to tell you this is less about RAS and more about real world politics impacting FR. These cities are part of the compromise between long term fans and woke twitter. Despite his blustering, RAS is just a pawn in all this.
And its not just the Dragon, the last two Unearthed Arcana made major changes to the Dragonborn (splitting them up into 3 races each with their own subtypes), Kobolds,Hobgoblins, and adding 3 new races to FR. Big things are a foot and its going to be more then just the Drow. Part of its politics, part of its driven by synergy.
Yeah, but look at it from this viewpoint: you're telling me to disbelive what RAS himself said in an interview, and to believe your conjecture instead. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 19:26:27
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Another thing I don't like which was either revealed or said in the latest Drizzt book or the one before, is that Lolth is technically not a deity but a "disease". Which I think is just stupid and nonsensical, and obviously not coherent at all with Realmslore.
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
@deserk
IIRC the second book of WoTSQ had a merchant house taking out a Noble house in order to take its place, and instead of the Menzoberranzean method of 'no survivors' the merchant house had to present its case to the council of matrons to justify its actions and make a case for taking their place as a noble house. They even brought in a surviving member of the destroyed house to question her, something that would be a big no-no in Menzoberranzan. There also seemed to be a greater emphasis on capturing enemies from other drow cities as presitigous slaves rather than for sacrifice or killing them outright. Gave me the impression that the extreme bloodletting of Menzoberranzan was more of Menzoberranzan's shtick than a universal one, which I appreciated.
Yes, very true indeed, I had forgot about that. Ched Nasad was a promisingly interesting place until they blew it up.
There is also a drow city below the Vilhon Reach called Undraeth which is ruled by a millennia old drow sorcerer queen who believes herself to be an incarnation of Lolth, and thus demands worship of herself, which would of course be heretical in many other drow cities.
Personally I would want the drow to remain a mostly evil race, but not stupid evil, nor exclusively evil. They are conditioned such both by their faiths, the legacy of Wendonai's influence and the overall cruel environment of the Underdark. There are minorities that fight and rebel against the pervasive evil faiths, like Eilistraeeans. I think it's more interesting for Eilistraeeans to have a great struggle and fight a uphill battle against these many malignant influences. And I don't want drow to simply be reduced into obsidian-skinned elves, which seems to be the thing going on with RAS' plans with these two new drow communities. |
Edited by - deserk on 23 May 2021 19:29:01 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 19:49:11
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quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
Wow. Just wow. I've seldom seen this kind of venom spewed at a creative artist.
My first thought was "I'd better revise the words 'creative artist' before I post—because apparently the majority of Candlekeepers will treat it as an unconscionable provocation to use those words to describe RAS." That's a sad, sad thing.
My second thought was something along the lines of "Forget it, John—it's Candlekeep." (A la the final line of Chinatown.)
But then I had a third thought.
My third thought is that this thread has been valuable to me, because it's clarified something: this site is, has been for quite some time, and probably always will be, two things at once—an irreplaceable trove of invaluable lore for my favorite fictional world; and the most overwhelmingly negative fanbase I've ever encountered.
I can't remember the last time I saw a thread on this site about any new D&D or FR product at all that wasn't at least 90% griping.
Now, to be clear, half the time I agree with that griping.
And half the time I don't.
But when I don't, there's no point expressing that, because the negativity will prevail. Anyone who even kinda sorta likes any of WotC or RAS do with the Realms is going to be shouted down and driven off.
Man oh man, do I love being able to look up deep lore here. But when it comes to anything to do with the current Realms, it's an unceasing whirlwind of scorn and negativity.
This thread is particularly vile due to its incessant personal attacks—but really, negativity is basically the official tone of the website.
And I've realized it's not beneficial to me to remain engaged with it.
It's ironic that the site that condones this sort of thing is the one that is still frequented by several of the best FR creators (interacting with whom is another silver lining I'll miss).
But the fact is that there are other places where FR fans gather, places where the range of viewpoints isn't quite so monolithic, and where it isn't considered acceptable behavior to spew vicious ad hominem vituperation at an FR creator for pages on end.
Maybe I'll see some of you there.
I would wonder what kind of communities you frequent. I've seen a lot more negativity in a lot of places. Heck, I used to be a part of a BattleTech forum where people routinely bashed a particular author for having fusion engines explode. The game has absurdly short ranges for weapons -- even lasers -- and somehow technologies like heat-seeking missiles have been lost in constant warfare between 30-foot tall piloted robots, but fusion engines exploding is where the line was drawn for realism. I actually had to report one guy to the moderators because he would not stop trying to convince me that the absurdly short ranges made sense -- when I refused to discuss it further with him in the forums, he started flooding me with PMs.
I also wonder if you've ever looked around our forum. A lot of people are Drizzt fans, and aren't driven off this site. A lot of people like what WotC has done and haven't been driven off. When 4E was a thing, I myself was repeatedly attacked and insulted for not accepting the changes. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 May 2021 19:52:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 19:50:18
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Another thing I don't like which was either revealed or said in the latest Drizzt book or the one before, is that Lolth is technically not a deity but a "disease". Which I think is just stupid and nonsensical, and obviously not coherent at all with Realmslore.
Please tell me this wasn't actually stated -- or that if it was, it was just a character's opinion. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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John Daker
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 19:53:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
When 4E was a thing, I myself was repeatedly attacked and insulted for not accepting the changes.
"We've been repeatedly attacking and insulting each other for many years" isn't exactly a rebuttal to my concern that this site is a wellspring of negativity and spite. Especially coming from a moderator. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 19:53:33
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| @Wooly It was a metaphor, most likely. It came from a highly informed character, but it was an expression that illithids use to decribe Lolth. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 May 2021 19:54:06 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 19:54:14
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Another thing I don't like which was either revealed or said in the latest Drizzt book or the one before, is that Lolth is technically not a deity but a "disease". Which I think is just stupid and nonsensical, and obviously not coherent at all with Realmslore.
I will be honest, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt, perhaps more often than I should, and I still have no idea what was actually meant conceptually by that particular revelation or idea, either by FR standards or D&D more generally. I read it multiple times, and tried looking at it through the filter of it just being a roundabout way to describe an illithid perspective of Lolth-the-goddess as a corrupting force upon the drow pushing them into evil (and filtered then once more through Kimmuriel as a psionicist, so garbled twice). It still read as confused and weird even through that heavy allusion and twisting.
A bit like the writer’s thoughts are all garbled up in his head, and while it may make sense to the writer, it doesn’t to the reader. I’ve encountered the same in academic writing, and have had reviewers and editors pull me up on it before (sometimes with me explaining it to them and the response being a flavour of “and that explanation should be included in the text so it makes sense”). Perhaps that’s what happened there, or perhaps it’s that benefit of the doubt thing I mentioned. I just don’t know. I just know it was very confusing and left me thinking “huh?” after I finished it. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 19:58:42
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@John, if you don't see anything wrong with what RAS did, then that's on you. But he's been squalid and dismissive to a lot of his colleagues, whose work he eagerly used to get where he is. I even made an example of what it'd look like if someone like Ed tried to do what RAS did, to put it in perspective.
If he had just come up with these drow cities and said "hey people, look these new drow cultures that I made", I honestly wouldn't have cared. It was the attempt to make it look like the work of others didn't exist first, by entirely excising and retconning it (explained it abundantly), and then being so dismissive in the interview, that made me write what I did. He's a creative artist, but being a creative artist doesn't make you immune to being called out for what you do as a human. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 May 2021 20:08:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 20:05:48
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quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
When 4E was a thing, I myself was repeatedly attacked and insulted for not accepting the changes.
"We've been repeatedly attacking and insulting each other for many years" isn't exactly a rebuttal to my concern that this site is a wellspring of negativity and spite. Especially coming from a moderator.
It wasn't a rebuttal to your concern about negativity, and it should be obvious that this isn't still happening.
It was a rebuttal to your assertion "Anyone who even kinda sorta likes any of WotC or RAS do with the Realms is going to be shouted down and driven off." People who like what WotC has done have not been shouted down or driven off, and in fact, some of them tried to do that shouting down and driving off, themselves. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 20:19:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
@John, if you don't see anything wrong with what RAS did, then that's on you. But he's been squalid and dismissive to a lot of his colleagues, whose work he eagerly used to get where he is. I even made an example of what it'd look like if someone like Ed tried to do what RAS did, to put it in perspective.
If he had just come up with these drow cities and said "hey people, look these new drow cultures that I made", I honestly wouldn't have cared. It was the attempt to make it look like the work of others didn't exist first, by entirely excising and retconning it (explained it abundantly), and then being so dismissive in the interview, that made me write what I did. He's a creative artist, but he did some really bad stuff as a person.
Honestly, if it wasn't for the "everything you know is wrong!" approach, I'd not be bothered as much. If the hidden city of ice drow was a recent discovery, and it was explained as something like a bunch of Ilythiiri renegades who split off during the Crown Wars, then I would have liked the idea. Maybe we could even make some connection betwixt them and lost population of Auseriel.
And forest-dwelling drow have been a thing for a while. Again, we could go with the Ilythiiri renegades who split off during the Crown Wars forming the earliest groups, and have drow fleeing Lolthite cities to supplement their numbers. Maybe play up some tensions between the Vhaeraun-worshipping ones and ones that are more inclined to follow the Seldarine... And/or maybe one of the Seldarine has a more neutral aspect these greenshadows could embrace -- someone with more of a "living in the forests" and "returning to what we once were" vibe than Eilistraee. I like Eilistraee, and all, but I think more options for divine representation could help.
And for the love of Lurue, I wish WotC would stop pretending that Menzoberranzan is the only drow city in the Underdark. They're reinforcing the monolithic nature of drow society while trying to change it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Upcoming changes to drow
