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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 22 May 2021 : 18:48:18
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Udadrow looks too much like "U Da Man!" to me. U Da Drow, bro!
Honestly, that was my thought, too. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 00:40:10
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So yeah, it looks like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun and their societies will "technically" remain, but they're going to get entirely ignored in a rework that has everything to do with what they stand for, and quite "replaced" (in terms of societies that WotC will use in upcoming stories) by the "new" cultures (that are actually ripped off from Eilistraee's culture, btw).
Also, aeven and loren, going by FR lore, given that they remained on the surface after the splinter, should totally be either tied to Eilistraee or Vhaeraun, because they can be nothing but the descendants of Miyeritar and Ilythiir. Yet, this is conveniently ignored once again.
Also, now Lolthites have been retconned into being a narrow minority of the drow, apparently (which is how things should be, by logic, but saying "well, it's always been like this", when it clearly has never been like this, is nonsense) and Menzo into being the only uda city. The undercurrents going against Lolth are good, but--once again--they should have totally included Eilistraeans and Vhaeraunites, given that this is one of the (if not the) biggest activities that they lead. Basically, they're getting ignored even when it comes to udadrow and their own turf. The "they can't fight the power" thingy is also nonsense. Yes, they can, and that should be the friggin' point of the undercurrents. Especially in FR, where merely disbelieving Lolth could kill her. How cliché it is that they use this part as a reason why Drizzt is so so speshul. Rather than making him part of a movement of rebellion, they put him on a pedestal and say "look guys, he's so awesome. It's so so hard to do what he did". Basically, it's "muh Drizzt must be teh most speshul evah" all over.
The retcon that erases all other drow cities is stupid as hell. Like, why is this even a thing? Also, as I said, retconning uda into a minority if compared to aeven and loren without explaining it is incredibly lazy as well (and no, Starlight Enclave clearly won't be about this change happening, becase the situation is presented as Aeven and Loren having always been there, and the uda being but a small splinter culture from the very beginning, which then founded Menzo and became isolationists).
This is from the guy who was saying that he wasn't "changing", but expanding. Nope, he should have totally changed, and should have done so by leading the godawful premise of the Lolthites, as well as the presence of alternative cultures like Eilistraeans and Vhaeraunites, to the natural consequences that should have happened 20 or so books ago in the Drizzt series (and millennia ago in in-universe time): a lot of drow finally abandoning Lolth, and only fanatics remaining.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 May 2021 00:46:08 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 00:46:27
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From the same issue of Dragon+, one page earlier: https://dnd.dragonmag.com/2021/05/21/in-the-works-template-issue-37-5/content.html
quote:
Lolth promised them a democratic, egalitarian meritocracy, independent of the whims of kings and queens. She told them they could be free down there, away from the actions of rulers who suddenly decide they want to go to war.
This implies that Lolth's followers had a choice, wasn't it the case that she and her followers were cursed to go down there and didn't have a choice in the matter? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 01:18:07
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quote:
I didn’t create the drow, but I created the drow in the Realms. And the vision I’ve always had for them is where the Wizards Franchise Team is taking them now
He's so full of shit. No, he didn't create the drow in the Realms, he created Menzo. The drow he used for the Realms clearly start from the Greyhawk/Gygax's assumptions. He didn't even create Lolth and her story in FR, ffs.
Also, he's openly disregarding the work of all those who built a plethora of different drow cultures, and different take on Lolth's cult, and different drow cities, because to him it seems that drow=Menzo, aka the stuff that he created. Damn dude, this is some seriosuly squalid behavior.
And honestly, when he said that he has had this vision since forever... Lol. Can he BS more, when every singe piece of fiction he put out until the very latest books proves the friggin' exact contrary? When Drizzt always complained about how he was alone in not choosing depravity and whatever? When he never bothered to add splinter movements, undercurrents, and a significant dissent among the Lolthites, nor other examples of good drow except a mere handful (if it's even that many)?
Re: drow being exiled, yes, they were exiled--unjustly for most, but they were. The injsutice of this could have also easily been a plot point.
In any case,
quote:
And the vision I’ve always had for them is where the Wizards Franchise Team is taking them now
This should probably dispel any doubt about whether they will throw all the non-RAS lore (aka most of it) away or not. And I mean, the retcons are already far larger than I thought, with all drow cities except Menzo being erased. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 May 2021 01:30:04 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 01:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
More info: https://dnd.dragonmag.com/2021/05/21/beyond-the-underdark-secrets-of-the-drow/content.html
Yeah, this article does not fill me with confidence. I was expecting the new drow to be few in number and confined to small, isolated communities, but that appears not to be the case. If anything, the article makes it sound like it's the other way around: "The drow that built Menzoberranzan are but a splinter group," and "broader drow society" is about to reveal itself.
Blecch... |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 01:45:24
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| I just love how painfully retcon it is, it's so apparent even in its presentation. "The phrase “Forgotten Realms” has never seemed so apt as broader drow society reveals itself from the shadows" and how somehow all this time NO ONE has heard about these other drow as well as those who have conveniently forgot them... artificial much? |
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John Daker
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 01:47:01
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It's 100% clear to me that RAS didn't instigate any of this.
RAS has been hired by WotC to implement specific changes demanded by WotC's "sensitivity readers." Those "readers" have decided that Eilistraee is not enough, and that the drow must no longer be presented in any official setting as "most of them are evil"; to do otherwise (the "readers" have decided) is racist.
I have no inside information, but I would bet my house that this is the case.
I sympathize with older, more jaded Realms fans who conclude on the basis of past disappointment that these changes are bound to be for the worse. But really, all we have so far is PR pieces and a few tiny tidbits of the new lore. This is a PR rollout designed to highlight the "New! Not racist anymore! Please stop being mean to us on Twitter!" drow status quo for the huge numbers of people who won't read Starlight Enclave. As far as I'm concerned, it remains to be seen whether these changes are for the better, and whether they're implemented well. I'm withholding judgment until I see the full picture. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 02:07:59
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quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
It's 100% clear to me that RAS didn't instigate any of this.
RAS has been hired by WotC to implement specific changes demanded by WotC's "sensitivity readers." Those "readers" have decided that Eilistraee is not enough, and that the drow must no longer be presented in any official setting as "most of them are evil"; to do otherwise (the "readers" have decided) is racist.
I have no inside information, but I would bet my house that this is the case.
I sympathize with older, more jaded Realms fans who conclude on the basis of past disappointment that these changes are bound to be for the worse. But really, all we have so far is PR pieces and a few tiny tidbits of the new lore. This is a PR rollout designed to highlight the "New! Not racist anymore! Please stop being mean to us on Twitter!" drow status quo for the huge numbers of people who won't read Starlight Enclave. As far as I'm concerned, it remains to be seen whether these changes are for the better, and whether they're implemented well. I'm withholding judgment until I see the full picture.
It is nice to be able to be "100% clear" about any thing.
It clearly is possible that RAS is claiming credit for ideas ordered by Hasbro or WOTC. However importing good Drow from out of thin air has never been hinted by RAS. Even he ignored the Brown elves that were the redeemed Drow followers of Eilistraee.
More good drow might answer a current outcry of the consumer, however doing that by wiping out a long standing lore of good Drow does not strike me as a way to do it. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 02:12:06
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quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
It's 100% clear to me that RAS didn't instigate any of this.
This:
quote:
And the vision I’ve always had for them is where the Wizards Franchise Team is taking them now
tells otherwise. And it's not a surpirse, given RAS' past attitude towards non-Lolth drow that he didn't create: ignoring them, unless it was about talking shit about them.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 02:30:29
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Even if RAS didn't instigate it, he's clearly been given free reign to utilize it. It's the "vision he's always had for them". So even if it was WotC's idea, it was probably due at least in part to RAS'prodding.
The problem isn't "wokeness". The problem is completely disregarding lore that would help them obtain the diversity they are seeking, and throwing in brand new lore. The "hidden until now" approach is not only sloppy, but it's also a slap in the face to inclusivity, as it is a reflection of minorities having to hide, but now being "seen". WotC is so afraid of being seen as "problematic" that they are essentially ignoring *all* elements of previous lore, even those that would actually help them. And RAS is there for it, because it allows him to do whatever he wants.
Also, in the article, the fact that RAS recited the quote of "the gods you made" goes back to the point I made earlier. His words just scream narcissist. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 02:48:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I really think this leads to a Faerun Campaign Book, perhaps named Drizzt's Guide to the Faerun.
Not a chance.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 02:49:57
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Even if RAS didn't instigate it, he's clearly been given free reign to utilize it. It's the "vision he's always had for them". So even if it was WotC's idea, it was probably due at least in part to RAS'prodding.
He's just started making it up as of late, and is claiming that "it's always been like that". Just a glance at all his previous stuff is enough to smell the stench of bullshit coming from his mouth.
quote:
The problem isn't "wokeness". The problem is completely disregarding lore that would help them obtain the diversity they are seeking, and throwing in brand new lore. The "hidden until now" approach is not only sloppy, but it's also a slap in the face to inclusivity, as it is a reflection of minorities having to hide, but now being "seen". WotC is so afraid of being seen as "problematic" that they are essentially ignoring *all* elements of previous lore, even those that would actually help them. And RAS is there for it, because it allows him to do whatever he wants.
Yeah, also this. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 May 2021 02:52:13 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 03:13:30
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Would have been more interesting for me to have Drizzt and co assist a Lolthite drow city throw off the yoke of oppression as noted by Irennan, creating a new society for themselves and unknowingly (at least at first) receiving indirect assistance from Eilistraee. But I'm not sure that's a novel that R A Salvatore would be interested in writing.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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John Daker
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 03:23:02
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Would have been more interesting for me to have Drizzt and co assist a Lolthite drow city throw off the yoke of oppression as noted by Irennan, creating a new society for themselves and unknowingly (at least at first) receiving indirect assistance from Eilistraee. But I'm not sure that's a novel that R A Salvatore would be interested in writing.
-- George Krashos
That wouldn't fit the assignment. The assignment was to reveal that drow have never actually been a majority-evil race.
(Last time I said I was "100% certain" that this is how it went down, and the first response I got was a sarcastic jab at that expression of certainty. So instead let's focus on my boast that "I'd bet my house on it," shall we?) |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 03:27:55
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Would have been more interesting for me to have Drizzt and co assist a Lolthite drow city throw off the yoke of oppression as noted by Irennan, creating a new society for themselves and unknowingly (at least at first) receiving indirect assistance from Eilistraee. But I'm not sure that's a novel that R A Salvatore would be interested in writing.
-- George Krashos
George, if you don't mind, I would like to steal that idea (sans Drizzt and Co) for a possible write up/expansion of Eric's stuff on Sshamath. I have an NPC from there (he is actually an Eilistraeen drow) that I need to develop some more background on. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 03:32:09
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quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
That wouldn't fit the assignment. The assignment was to reveal that drow have never actually been a majority-evil race.
Why do you think there was an assignment, when RAS has literally said that WotC is doing what he wants?
He isn't to be defended. He was given free reign, and he decided to discard things based on his personal bias, to say that he created everything drow and that "this has always been the master plan, hurr durr. Can't you see how smart I am?".
Given his beef with the drow pantheon created by Ed (by his own admission), and his dogged rejection of anything drow not created by him, that he would throw away the work of others, and rain his ultra super awesome vision on the setting that he didn't create but that gave him those sweet $$, doesn't come as a surprise. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 May 2021 03:41:21 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 03:36:02
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Would have been more interesting for me to have Drizzt and co assist a Lolthite drow city throw off the yoke of oppression as noted by Irennan, creating a new society for themselves and unknowingly (at least at first) receiving indirect assistance from Eilistraee. But I'm not sure that's a novel that R A Salvatore would be interested in writing.
-- George Krashos
Yeah, this is such a natural development. Also, a very fun campaign idea (minus Drizzt). I personally had this campaign, and it gave me amazing memories. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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John Daker
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 03:40:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
He isn't to be defended. He was given free reign, and he decided to discard things based on his personal bias, to say that he created everything drow and that "this has always been the master plan, hurr durr. Can't you see how smart I am?".
I'm not trying to defend him—and I don't think he needs to be defended against attacks as sophomoric and rude as this one. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 03:43:37
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I may be rude, yes, but that's what he stated, while all of his work tells the exact contrary. He also disregarded the work of so many, by eagerly taking merit for having created stuff that he didn't create. I don't think he deserves respectful comments, because he doesn't respect others.
An equivalent situation could be a hypothetical case in which Ed created only the Sword Coast (and not even all of it, since RAS didn't create Lolth, or any other drow city), and others created the other regions. Then, after that, Ed called himself the creator of the whole Realms, proceeded to throw away all the regions not by him, and replaced them with his "shiny new vision", while claiming to have intended it all along. This would be squalid, and it's what RAS did.
Moreover, by claiming that this was his vision all along (something clearly contradicted by his books), he's basically passing the blame for the monolithic representation of the drow on others, even though some of said others (Ed, Elaine) actually worked to add nuance to the drow, while he's been one of the prime perpetrators of Lolth as a monoculture (both because of how things are in his books, and by refuing to acknowledge Eilistraee and her people as a goodly drow culture, and have Drizzt interact with them). All of this essentially screams: "See, now that I'm in charge things will be fine. Unlike when those others guys were in charge..."
RAS' word has always had a lot of weight on what happened to the drow. Think that, by his own admission, his part in WotSQ (aside from attracting people) consisted in making sure that the drow remained like he wanted them. Like, he was involved purely for this. Had RAS actually had a vision, not only his books would have been dramatically different, we would have seen signs of that vision a long time ago. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 May 2021 04:19:32 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 04:35:54
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Holy hell, those retcons that were revealed today are really blatant and...dare I say it, awful.
So is the whole Descent is retconned now? It's just Lolth luring drow underground, not as a result of the Crown wars or anything? And the evil drow are color coded now too with the 'spider' tattoos. Thanks but no thanks.
And the drow as we know them were all just a 'pocket' of isolationist drow? It also implies that Menzoberranzean is 'the' drow city that Lolth founded when she lured these drow into the underdark. Literally everything about drow history and mythology sounds like it just got thrown out the window.
What's worst of all for me though is the gaslighting. They are presenting this retconned history where the drow were always evil so they can make this big 'reveal' as if this is an expansion of their lore into territory never explored before -I guess so they can make a bigger claim of 'victory' over the problematic one-dimensional drow more impressive. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 04:50:25
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Yeah, the spider tattoo thing bothers me, too -- but that's mainly because it reminds me of what WotC did to genasi, and it makes me think that someone at WotC has a serious thing for skin markings.
Of course, as someone else pointed out already, it means that all drow are basically carrying around a "Lolth's favor" meter -- much like the health bar floating over character's heads in a lot of MMOs. |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 05:24:52
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| Well on another level, a lot of people were really bothered with the whole 'always chaotic evil' sort of approach to some species like drow and orcs, making the evil ones conveniently color coded is ah....a little tone deaf. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 05:40:08
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"Everyone—aboveground and below—knows that all drow elves live in the Underdark and worship the Spider Queen.
And everyone… is wrong." This is from the opening paragraph of the article sno4wy linked. Well, duh, they're wrong. Again, blatant disregard for established lore. Also looks like they're continuing the theme of MToF with the whole primal elf thing.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 06:11:13
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There seems to be the implication that *immediately* after the civil war with the elven gods (what?!) Lolth convinced a small band of drow to follow her down to the Underdark to found Menzoberranzean. This really bugs me. No Crown Wars or 'Descent of the Drow' as we knew it-or evenif they are canon or not anymore. The drow moving to the Udnerdark is decontextualized as a schism among drow, not among elves. Now Menzoberranzean is *the* founding capital of Drow kind, or at least Lolths (apparently much smaller than assumed) cult. Maybe even the only drow city? They really seem to be pressign the importance of Menzoberranzan as a sort of 'capitol' of Lolth's cult.
But at any rate, going straight from Lolth's fall to the founding of Menzoberranzan just throws the timeline into absolute chaos and uncertainty. Menzoberranzan used to be a a 'third generation' city and was founded well after the drow were pushed into the Underdark. The canonicity of all the other drow cities and their relationship with Menzo (if any, if they still exist) is just up in the air now.
This also has the effect of radically diminishing the importance of Lolth by essentially making her followers these weird isolationist cultists, while also basically contracting 'drow' as we know them to this incredibly narrow group consisting of essentially just Menzoberranzan. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 06:45:32
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Well on another level, a lot of people were really bothered with the whole 'always chaotic evil' sort of approach to some species like drow and orcs, making the evil ones conveniently color coded is ah....a little tone deaf.
It becomes plainly silly if you think about it for more than a few seconds. Featuring a wholly fictional race/species that is uniformly evil (or nearly so) does not indicate real-world prejudice any more than featuring a benevolent kingdom (or two, or three, or a baker's dozen) reveals a real-world desire to reinstate real-world monarchies or featuring a mausoleum/graveyard-themed dungeon is nothing more than implicit approval of real-life grave robbing. At the end of the day, we are dealing with fantasy escapism...whether that escapism is well-written or chock full of schlock and whether the morality of said escapism is spread across a multitude of shades of grey or is conventional "good versus evil".
Most folks don't truly want to spend many cold nights on dark trails with wolves lurking in the nearby underbrush and bandits looking for hapless travelers to waylay. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 07:58:44
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
There seems to be the implication that *immediately* after the civil war with the elven gods (what?!) Lolth convinced a small band of drow to follow her down to the Underdark to found Menzoberranzean. This really bugs me. No Crown Wars or 'Descent of the Drow' as we knew it-or evenif they are canon or not anymore. The drow moving to the Udnerdark is decontextualized as a schism among drow, not among elves. Now Menzoberranzean is *the* founding capital of Drow kind, or at least Lolths (apparently much smaller than assumed) cult. Maybe even the only drow city? They really seem to be pressign the importance of Menzoberranzan as a sort of 'capitol' of Lolth's cult.
But at any rate, going straight from Lolth's fall to the founding of Menzoberranzan just throws the timeline into absolute chaos and uncertainty. Menzoberranzan used to be a a 'third generation' city and was founded well after the drow were pushed into the Underdark. The canonicity of all the other drow cities and their relationship with Menzo (if any, if they still exist) is just up in the air now.
This also has the effect of radically diminishing the importance of Lolth by essentially making her followers these weird isolationist cultists, while also basically contracting 'drow' as we know them to this incredibly narrow group consisting of essentially just Menzoberranzan.
One of the most common misconceptions about the turning of the Drow is that it only happened once. There have actually been multiple Descents, not just in the lore of FR, and even the semi-canon of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes confirms this in a box text.
There could have been drow already living in the Underdark before the Crown Wars even started. Hiding, waiting, fornicating, building, biding their time and growing their strength. The Netherese did a similar thing with Thultanthar, which was unknown to most people until they returned in force.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 08:46:54
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
This also has the effect of radically diminishing the importance of Lolth by essentially making her followers these weird isolationist cultists, while also basically contracting 'drow' as we know them to this incredibly narrow group consisting of essentially just Menzoberranzan.
Only good thing to come out of this. But, as I said, this should be the result of developing the natural consequences of the extremely farfetched premise of Lolth and the existence of other drow cultures and even deities who go out of their way to reach to the drow.
Introducing it as a retcon, rather than a development, is the wrong move. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2021 : 10:30:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
This also has the effect of radically diminishing the importance of Lolth by essentially making her followers these weird isolationist cultists, while also basically contracting 'drow' as we know them to this incredibly narrow group consisting of essentially just Menzoberranzan.
Only good thing to come out of this. But, as I said, this should be the result of developing the natural consequences of the extremely farfetched premise of Lolth and the existence of other drow cultures and even deities who go out of their way to reach to the drow.
Introducing it as a retcon, rather than a development, is the wrong move.
Can't we just have our inexplicably massive and extremely evil cultures ? I recognize the value in having some degree of (semi-plausible) sociology and economy to hold onto, but I'm not interested in the "Why are they so large in number?" any more than I am interested in "How does Mordor sustain their population when most of their terrain is inimical to livestock and agriculture?" |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Upcoming changes to drow
