Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Realmslore
 Sages of Realmslore
 Origin and Age of Mask
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2021 :  20:15:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It doesn't matter how many worlds are retconned into Realmspace, that doesn't give Shar any reason to look elsewhere.

Really, the whole thing of making her multispheric *and* adding that she's actively working to destroy all these other worlds -- that just furthers the 3E/4E trend of making Shar a 2-dimensional comic book villain.

Before, she just wanted to return to the dark comfort she'd known at the beginning of Realmspace. Now, she's out to destroy everything, for reasons. Give her a mustache to twirl and her move to being a caricature is complete.

People complained that the Zhents had become the Keystone Kops, and WotC's reaction was to turn Shar to Snidely Whiplash.



My point was though, it is IN realmspace. Mortals do something that possibly CAUSES the creation of a new world (and for all we know, it wasn't Ao that created Abeir..... like many gods, he may be taking credit that he isn't due... it could have been the result of a Primordial's actions, and whether Ao IS a primordial as well as an overgod is also in question, and how many overgods are there, blah blah... the many discussions we've had). Shar then goes "damn it, that's ANOTHER world in realmspace too... I gotta destroy that too now or I'll NEVER get any sleep".

Sidebar note though... Mask disappeared after the spellplague. My thoughts would put him in Abeir along with a lot of OTHER missing gods. So, was he a HERALD that a great darkness would eventually be coming to Abeir (say AFTER the sundering when Mystra comes back and seizes the reins of both weave and shadow weave, which have been remerged)? Just a thought... put a pin in that for some theorizing later. NOTE: One of the places in realmspace that "the weave didn't exist" WAS Abeir.... which may now be different.

To note, I am not real concerned with whether or not I like the whole representation of Shar as she was shown. I'm more of a "hey, it happened, how can we use it". My point though was that some people might be more upset that she's a goddess in another "crystal sphere" whereas this concept puts her as a goddess still within the same "crystal sphere", but over another "dimension" within it. It might be an interesting way to blend the original 1e concept of the prime material with the 2e concept of the prime material as separated crystal spheres with the 4e concept of Abeir and Toril as existing in the same "space" but out of phase with each other AND still have these gods as being gods in "other worlds". Maybe Realmspace isn't the only crystal sphere with multiple out of phase "dimensions"/"planets". Maybe even the whole Eberron concept of outer planes that fade in and out aren't even really "outer planes", but rather other "phased primes" in other crystal spheres where the spheres are nearing each other. But, I've gotten way off topic.... as usual... sorry.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 14 May 2021 20:20:44
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2021 :  21:20:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Weird, indeed. What does Realmspace tell about Shar?
Just to cover all AD&D2 era sources, even not so great.



Not a whole lot. Her only mentions are in the "Religion in the Stars" section, where it says, on page 76:

quote:
These priests are unable to cast spells once they leave the sphere. In past history, Shar would not accept them again once they left Realmspace, but since the Time of Troubles, she has softened her angers toward those struck by wanderlust.

While inside the sphere, the priests of Shar can cast and gain spells normally. Unfortunately, most of these individuals demand that they be allowed to cover the entire ship with continual darkness spells so they can hide the ship from view better. This trick does not work all the time, though. When a ship concealed with continual darkness passes in front of a light source, the blackness is very noticeable: this happens even against a star field.


I hate to admit it, given my opinion on the lore concerning Toril in this source, but this does further back up the assertion that Shar being multispheric is a retcon.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 May 2021 21:21:48
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2021 :  00:39:17  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shar is a multi-spheric mega-goddess for the same reasons Mystra is a multi-spheric mega-goddess: a necessary contrivance for the purposes of new fiction.

Shar and Mask were fairly unimpressive nobodies in 1E and 2E. Remember that the Realms we were given at that point - circa 1357DR-ish - had already existed (in universe) for many tens of millennia. Shar and Mask might've been jumped up and pimped up a little for a new edition or trilogy but they seem to have been rather unremarkable (and weak) deities for the other 99.9% of the time they've officially been around.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2021 :  02:56:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Shar is a multi-spheric mega-goddess for the same reasons Mystra is a multi-spheric mega-goddess: a necessary contrivance for the purposes of new fiction.

Shar and Mask were fairly unimpressive nobodies in 1E and 2E. Remember that the Realms we were given at that point - circa 1357DR-ish - had already existed (in universe) for many tens of millennia. Shar and Mask might've been jumped up and pimped up a little for a new edition or trilogy but they seem to have been rather unremarkable (and weak) deities for the other 99.9% of the time they've officially been around.



Where does it say Mystra is multispheric?

I personally liked Mask and Shar as they were. As I said earlier, now Shar is a caricature of a villain lacking only a mustache to twirl. Mask as a servant of another power is also less interesting than one that's out there stirring up stuff entirely on his own.

I've no idea where the idea that Shar was weak comes from.

And I don't see why she had to become multispheric for the story. Is not the desire and willingness to destroy an entire solar system enough? Would people be less interested in saving themselves and their world if the villain was purely local, instead of cosmic?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2021 :  22:35:57  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Where does it say Mystra is multispheric?

4E ... Spellplague ... cosmos-spanning destruction because Mystra stumbled (again) ...

quote:
And I don't see why she had to become multispheric for the story. Is not the desire and willingness to destroy an entire solar system enough? Would people be less interested in saving themselves and their world if the villain was purely local, instead of cosmic?

I agree. It's just the usual auctorial inflation. Never threaten the setting with a simple nova or standard god when a galaxy-threatening supernova or a cosmic uber-god would be so much more spectacular, eh?

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2021 :  02:50:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Where does it say Mystra is multispheric?

4E ... Spellplague ... cosmos-spanning destruction because Mystra stumbled (again) ...



It wasn't cosmos-spanning. Since the advent of 3E, the stance has been that Toril's Prime is the only thing out there, and that other worlds don't exist. This was, of course, a retcon, since it invalidated all the connections the Realms has had to other worlds and the numbers of entities, including deities, who have come from other worlds.

And this retcon remained until Shar was inexplicably retconned into expanding her influence to other worlds just to destroy them -- though, aside from that retcon of a retcon, there still isn't much mention anywhere of anything beyond Realmspace.

There's never been any indication, aside from the possible exception of Elminster's travels, that Mystra even pays attention to anything beyond Realmspace.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

DeBasilisk
Acolyte

18 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2021 :  16:26:21  Show Profile Send DeBasilisk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just wanted to add a thank you to everyone for all the great responses! Much appreciated good folk!
Go to Top of Page

Eldacar
Senior Scribe

438 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2021 :  21:26:07  Show Profile Send Eldacar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There's never been any indication, aside from the possible exception of Elminster's travels, that Mystra even pays attention to anything beyond Realmspace.


The predecessor to Midnight-Mystra was friends with Wee Jas, so there is that at least. That was pre-3e of course, though even in 3e you had things like Dragon articles with the World Serpent Inn still interlinking different settings together.

"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2021 :  15:43:20  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
... It wasn't cosmos-spanning. Since the advent of 3E, the stance has been that Toril's Prime is the only thing out there, and that other worlds don't exist. This was, of course, a retcon, since it invalidated all the connections the Realms has had to other worlds and the numbers of entities, including deities, who have come from other worlds.

And this retcon remained until Shar was inexplicably retconned into expanding her influence to other worlds just to destroy them -- though, aside from that retcon of a retcon, there still isn't much mention anywhere of anything beyond Realmspace.

There's never been any indication, aside from the possible exception of Elminster's travels, that Mystra even pays attention to anything beyond Realmspace.

Doesn't 4E canon trump 3E canon by default, officially?

Your argument is sensible, though it seems quite strange coming from someone who loves Spelljammer, and just as strange going to someone who loves Planescape, lol.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2021 :  16:36:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
... It wasn't cosmos-spanning. Since the advent of 3E, the stance has been that Toril's Prime is the only thing out there, and that other worlds don't exist. This was, of course, a retcon, since it invalidated all the connections the Realms has had to other worlds and the numbers of entities, including deities, who have come from other worlds.

And this retcon remained until Shar was inexplicably retconned into expanding her influence to other worlds just to destroy them -- though, aside from that retcon of a retcon, there still isn't much mention anywhere of anything beyond Realmspace.

There's never been any indication, aside from the possible exception of Elminster's travels, that Mystra even pays attention to anything beyond Realmspace.

Doesn't 4E canon trump 3E canon by default, officially?


Well, yeah, but at least at the start of 4E, it maintained the "alone in the cosmos" approach of 3E -- aside from the Far Realm, there's not even a hint that there is anything out there, aside from Realmspace.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Your argument is sensible, though it seems quite strange coming from someone who loves Spelljammer, and just as strange going to someone who loves Planescape, lol.



The fact that I love Spelljammer and I like Planescape doesn't enter into it -- canon was changed to chuck all those things out. And even if they were maintained, there was still nothing suggesting Shar paid any attention to anything beyond Realmspace, until suddenly she was retconned to be multispheric and even more of a cartoon villain.

I complained long and hard about the cosmology changes, when 3E came out, because of the way it chucked out Spelljammer and Planescape and a good chunk of prior Realmslore.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 May 2021 16:41:58
Go to Top of Page

Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1419 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2022 :  04:36:56  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While non-canon, I was always intrigued by the idea that Vhaeraun might be related to Mask somehow.

After all, he's a god of Thieves and Shadow himself.

Maybe Mask is his human incarnation?

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000