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DeBasilisk
Acolyte

6 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2021 :  16:55:36  Show Profile Send DeBasilisk a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Good day!

I am working on some character backstory and need to know how long the deity of Mask has existed. I understand that general consensus is that he began as a herald, chosen or “son” of Shar; is there any material that suggests when he walked the realms, or the earliest that his faith is mentioned? I know that he is not a part of the official Netherese pantheon though Shar is, does that suggest that his ascension occurred after the Fall of Netheril?

Any help would be much appreciated!

sleyvas
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Posted - 02 May 2021 :  17:59:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have you read any of the books on Erevis Cale and Drasek Riven pre-spellplague?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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DeBasilisk
Acolyte

6 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2021 :  18:27:23  Show Profile Send DeBasilisk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have not, but my understanding is that those take place in the 14th century. Surely Masks faith is older than that, no?
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 03 May 2021 :  19:22:14  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-He was a mortal called "Lessinor" at a minimum about 1,000 years ago. That's pretty much all we know. Could've been in Realmspace, could've been somewhere else. That could be his actual name, might be a specific title maybe, could be a nickname, we don't know. Could've been elevated to divinity a little over those 1,000 years ago, could've been 2,000, 5,000, who knows.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7433 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2021 :  21:59:15  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mask in the Avatar/Cyric novels was something of a buffoon. A dashing and playful master of intrigue - so much intrigue that he himself could not possibly know or follow all the layers of schemes within plots within conspiracies. An ineffective little god, so insistently self-deluded that he "masterfully" let himself be duped and pawned (and nearly destroyed) by greater powers simply for his own amusement.

Mask in the Erevis/Twilight novels is more of an enigma. Ancient beyond mortal comprehension, his entire history masked in shadows deeper than he can reveal, he has been known as the Herald of Shar, responsible for bringing ruin to civilizations and worlds long forgotten. He is concerned with all things which happen in shadows - including whispered intrigues, including stealthy thieves, including violent passions - he is a powerful and competent deity, his shadows exist in a delicate balance between Lathander's blinding radiance and Shar's murky darkness, and he manipulates this balance of light and darkness to serve his shadowy agendas with great precision.
Shar is the nominal matron of shades, Shadovar, and the so-called "Shadow Weave". But she governs these things indirectly through her "servant" Mask. It could be argued that Mask is therefore more powerful than Shar - except of course that we don't know what power Shar may have over Mask, whether his "service" is subjugated, forced, compelled, an obligation, a partnership, an alliance, voluntary, or even just another of Mask's inexplicable "momentary" whimsies.

All versions of Mask seem to be constantly running or hiding from the Kezef Wolf. The Avatar trilogy explains how the wolf was set on this relentess predation by Cyric's competent manipulations of Mask's incompetent machinations. But the wolf is clearly imported from Norse mythology - he's even said to have bitten off Tyr's hand, etc - and there are passages in the later novels which (seem to) suggest the wolf had already been pursuing Mask across many worlds and many ages, long before any Avatar crisis ever occurred on the Realms. I speculate that Mask might even be akin to Tyr - in Earth mythology the Aesir and the Vanir exchanged members (like Frey and Freya) - in Realms mythology the "Vanir" counterparts might be members of some other divine clade, pantheon, world, or species. Meaning that Mask might be an "interloping" god (or Realms aspect/fork of such a god) from another world, just like Tyr, perhaps even arriving in the Realms along with Tyr. For all we know, Mask might be a "humanized" version some pre-Lolth fallen/exiled Seldarine "shadow" deity once worshipped by the drow.

Mask's divine rank and stature has changed a few times across game editions. Suggesting that either his power (in the Realms) waxes and wanes ... or that it is simply impossible to measure behind the shadows.

Mask has always been described as "male". Except for 1E and early-2E artwork which tended to illustrate Mask (or Mask's clerics/priests) wearing rather unisex costumes which did little to conceal "his" clearly feminine virtues.

https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1446/56/1446560557165.jpg

Perhaps worth noting that Mask is specifically and frequently featured in certain Planescape lore. While the rest of the Faerunian pantheon (even Mary Sue Mystra) are hardly ever mentioned in Planeslore, they're just not very "important" from a cosmic perspective which is already crowded with pantheons and powers.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 03 May 2021 22:47:18
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 03 May 2021 :  22:39:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally didn't like having Mask connected to Shar. While there is the obvious angle of Shar being about darkness and Mask's followers preferring darkness, that's about it. We didn't see any connection between the two under we entered the era of "ALL SHAR, ALL THE TIME!" Even 3E's Faiths and Pantheons doesn't make any connection between them.

It's not until the Erevis Cale books that we see this, and it is my opinion that it was because of Shade's love of shadows and their worship of Shar that this connection was made. (It is a bit odd that Shade is all about shadow and yet doesn't worship the deity of shadows, which at least in 2E and 3E was Mask).

Personally, I'd prefer to not only have Mask and Shar not connected to each other, I think they should be enemies -- Shar's basically trying to poach one of his portfolios. The whole thing about him being her herald could be pure propaganda, trying to force a connection between the two so she can use him.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 04 May 2021 :  01:54:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DeBasilisk

I have not, but my understanding is that those take place in the 14th century. Surely Masks faith is older than that, no?



It explores his history

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7433 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2021 :  02:10:26  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The whole thing about him being her herald could be pure propaganda, trying to force a connection between the two so she can use him.

It doesn't have to be the "same" Mask and Shar. If Realms-Tyr and Norse-Tyr are effectively different deities then Realms-Mask and Realms-Shar could also have non-Realms cognates.

Also, the Realms has things like time travel, Alternate Primes, parallel worldstreams, etc. Mask-Herald-Of-Shar and Mask-Shadowlord-Of-Realms could effectively be separate individuals with separate histories, able to know of their other aspects only because of their divine stations.

Even if it is propaganda, it doesn't necessarily originate with Shar. Mask could write the stuff himself. He's a god of scummy meddling and mucking, lies and treacheries, masks concealing facts and intentions ... nobody would be better positioned to propagate false embellishments and titles to Mask than Mask himself, he seems like the sort of deity who would teach multiple (conflicting) canons to his own faithful, keeping each splinter faith "in the dark".

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 04 May 2021 :  05:52:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The whole thing about him being her herald could be pure propaganda, trying to force a connection between the two so she can use him.

It doesn't have to be the "same" Mask and Shar. If Realms-Tyr and Norse-Tyr are effectively different deities then Realms-Mask and Realms-Shar could also have non-Realms cognates.

Also, the Realms has things like time travel, Alternate Primes, parallel worldstreams, etc. Mask-Herald-Of-Shar and Mask-Shadowlord-Of-Realms could effectively be separate individuals with separate histories, able to know of their other aspects only because of their divine stations.

Even if it is propaganda, it doesn't necessarily originate with Shar. Mask could write the stuff himself. He's a god of scummy meddling and mucking, lies and treacheries, masks concealing facts and intentions ... nobody would be better positioned to propagate false embellishments and titles to Mask than Mask himself, he seems like the sort of deity who would teach multiple (conflicting) canons to his own faithful, keeping each splinter faith "in the dark".



I don't know that I see Mask saying "Hey, I'm actually a servant of this deity that's poaching my turf!" I can't see much benefit to that one. It seems more likely to me that it's an attempt on Shar's part to steal worshippers and power from Mask and eventually subsume him.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10265 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2021 :  15:47:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The whole thing about him being her herald could be pure propaganda, trying to force a connection between the two so she can use him.

It doesn't have to be the "same" Mask and Shar. If Realms-Tyr and Norse-Tyr are effectively different deities then Realms-Mask and Realms-Shar could also have non-Realms cognates.

Also, the Realms has things like time travel, Alternate Primes, parallel worldstreams, etc. Mask-Herald-Of-Shar and Mask-Shadowlord-Of-Realms could effectively be separate individuals with separate histories, able to know of their other aspects only because of their divine stations.

Even if it is propaganda, it doesn't necessarily originate with Shar. Mask could write the stuff himself. He's a god of scummy meddling and mucking, lies and treacheries, masks concealing facts and intentions ... nobody would be better positioned to propagate false embellishments and titles to Mask than Mask himself, he seems like the sort of deity who would teach multiple (conflicting) canons to his own faithful, keeping each splinter faith "in the dark".



I don't know that I see Mask saying "Hey, I'm actually a servant of this deity that's poaching my turf!" I can't see much benefit to that one. It seems more likely to me that it's an attempt on Shar's part to steal worshippers and power from Mask and eventually subsume him.



Bear this in mind... not many servants do what they do because they WANT to.... they do it because they HAVE to. Mask may have served Shar to some degree because he had to in order to have access to X in order to control some other factor Y, all while secretly plotting to turn against her. This is very much how he was presented if I recall correctly in the Cale series (i.e. he was a reluctant servant of Shar, and he was actively hoping that Cale would help him break away from Shar's control.... please don't ask me to provide quotes on that, because I'm literally going on vague remembrances). In fact, if we look at his portfolios, many of them were vague and basically could been seen as subtly encroaching on another deity (for instance, as a "god of intrigues" as a "god of shadow" ), and the only "solid" one you can point to is as a god of thieves.

By the way, this is how I picture a LOT of servant gods. They don't serve their master deity because they are just happy servants who want to do the will of a greater power. They do so because their master has certain factors in play that the lesser power needs in order to even function in their current role. This would probably be the case for deities like Azuth, Savras, Velsharoon, Red Knight, Siamorphe, Garagos, Umberlee, Auril, Iyachtu Xvim, etc.. There may be some deities who willingly serve because they like a chain of command or don't want a greater focus (like Lliira, Eldath, Milil, Deneir, Torm), or who find their secondary role freeing (i.e. I don't want their job, because everyone's gunning for them, but I'll do it if forced). To note, the magic deities might see Mystra in that light as well (i.e. I don't want the boss' job, but if forced I'll do it).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 04 May 2021 15:55:07
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 04 May 2021 :  17:00:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Bear this in mind... not many servants do what they do because they WANT to.... they do it because they HAVE to. Mask may have served Shar to some degree because he had to in order to have access to X in order to control some other factor Y, all while secretly plotting to turn against her. This is very much how he was presented if I recall correctly in the Cale series (i.e. he was a reluctant servant of Shar, and he was actively hoping that Cale would help him break away from Shar's control.... please don't ask me to provide quotes on that, because I'm literally going on vague remembrances). In fact, if we look at his portfolios, many of them were vague and basically could been seen as subtly encroaching on another deity (for instance, as a "god of intrigues" as a "god of shadow" ), and the only "solid" one you can point to is as a god of thieves.

By the way, this is how I picture a LOT of servant gods. They don't serve their master deity because they are just happy servants who want to do the will of a greater power. They do so because their master has certain factors in play that the lesser power needs in order to even function in their current role. This would probably be the case for deities like Azuth, Savras, Velsharoon, Red Knight, Siamorphe, Garagos, Umberlee, Auril, Iyachtu Xvim, etc.. There may be some deities who willingly serve because they like a chain of command or don't want a greater focus (like Lliira, Eldath, Milil, Deneir, Torm), or who find their secondary role freeing (i.e. I don't want their job, because everyone's gunning for them, but I'll do it if forced). To note, the magic deities might see Mystra in that light as well (i.e. I don't want the boss' job, but if forced I'll do it).



You're not understanding what I'm saying.

In the 2E and 3E deity books, there is no mention of a connection between Shar and Mask. None at all. They were not allies and certainly not master/servant.

And there's no connection in the fiction, either, until it was suddenly relevant in the Erevis Cale books.

I think this sudden forced connection was part of the "shadowz and darkness are kewl, so moar Shar!" thing so prevalent in 3E/4E. I don't like it for that reason, and also because it is a retcon.

Hence, my personal spin: Shar wants the portfolio of shadows, so her priests are saying Mask is a servant of Shar. She's trying to make that connection between them so he will be forced to serve (and eventually fall to) her.

And as I also said, I don't see any benefit for Mask, as an independent, to claim he's actually serving someone who is clearly trying to horn in on his territory.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 04 May 2021 :  17:37:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Bear this in mind... not many servants do what they do because they WANT to.... they do it because they HAVE to. Mask may have served Shar to some degree because he had to in order to have access to X in order to control some other factor Y, all while secretly plotting to turn against her. This is very much how he was presented if I recall correctly in the Cale series (i.e. he was a reluctant servant of Shar, and he was actively hoping that Cale would help him break away from Shar's control.... please don't ask me to provide quotes on that, because I'm literally going on vague remembrances). In fact, if we look at his portfolios, many of them were vague and basically could been seen as subtly encroaching on another deity (for instance, as a "god of intrigues" as a "god of shadow" ), and the only "solid" one you can point to is as a god of thieves.

By the way, this is how I picture a LOT of servant gods. They don't serve their master deity because they are just happy servants who want to do the will of a greater power. They do so because their master has certain factors in play that the lesser power needs in order to even function in their current role. This would probably be the case for deities like Azuth, Savras, Velsharoon, Red Knight, Siamorphe, Garagos, Umberlee, Auril, Iyachtu Xvim, etc.. There may be some deities who willingly serve because they like a chain of command or don't want a greater focus (like Lliira, Eldath, Milil, Deneir, Torm), or who find their secondary role freeing (i.e. I don't want their job, because everyone's gunning for them, but I'll do it if forced). To note, the magic deities might see Mystra in that light as well (i.e. I don't want the boss' job, but if forced I'll do it).



You're not understanding what I'm saying.

In the 2E and 3E deity books, there is no mention of a connection between Shar and Mask. None at all. They were not allies and certainly not master/servant.

And there's no connection in the fiction, either, until it was suddenly relevant in the Erevis Cale books.

I think this sudden forced connection was part of the "shadowz and darkness are kewl, so moar Shar!" thing so prevalent in 3E/4E. I don't like it for that reason, and also because it is a retcon.

Hence, my personal spin: Shar wants the portfolio of shadows, so her priests are saying Mask is a servant of Shar. She's trying to make that connection between them so he will be forced to serve (and eventually fall to) her.

And as I also said, I don't see any benefit for Mask, as an independent, to claim he's actually serving someone who is clearly trying to horn in on his territory.



I get ya, but at the same time, I view it as "the previous authors didn't see a connection that should have existed". The link between "darkness" and "shadows" is pretty obvious. I would thereby note that there should have at least been SOME kind of relation between them. It doesn't need to be master/servant. It could even be enemies (i.e. he was encroaching on her territory). But it should be SOMETHING because they two portfolios are very similar. An idea that he might have gained power over shadow by taking some artifact of shadow energy, only to find out that there was a trap laid in it by Shar that forces him into some kind of servitude could make sense. He wouldn't exactly advertise this to his clergy though (it would hurt his rep as a god of intrigues to have fallen prey to her intrigues). Also, exactly HOW this might make him her servant (i.e. to what degree) might be questionable too. Maybe he is forced to protect some place of power or whatever the storyline was (I honestly forget his role in the novels).

I also agree that they had Shar very much encroaching on everyone else's territory too much (for instance, as a goddess that wanted to destroy everything, I would say she was also encroaching Talos' territory, even if he was more a god of nature's destruction).

I'll also add into all this that to a degree she was also encroaching on Leira's territory as well (darkness being an illusory effect, as well a hiding and secrets also being something that could be seen to push on the portfolios of lies and illusions). This whole idea is why I personally have a view that Mask and Leira were in cahoots to stand up Cyric as a straw man and USE him to work against Shar. I also think that on the side they may have been working with Talos to a degree (maybe just feeding him info to make him act certain ways) to have him raise up some new gods of magic who would seem to be perfect dupes for Shar but actually work as spies against her.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 04 May 2021 :  18:32:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You could easily argue that a connection should have been there. I won't dispute that; it's an obvious one. My issue is that there wasn't a connection or a hint of a connection before, and then suddenly he's her servant and always has been. That's a retcon.

One especially has to question why, if Mask was a servant of Shar, was he allowed to become weakened by the Cyrinishad and then hunted by Kezef. If Mask was Shar's servant, weakening him weakens her -- and it's canon that Shar very jealously guarded her power. Weakening her servant also would impact her plans and potentially set them back.

This is another reason I would say it was all Sharran propaganda.

Though you could spin it a different way, I suppose. Maybe Shar had a servant on some other world, one that was her herald -- and Mask grabbed and subsumed that herald at some point. It doesn't put Mask under her, but it lets you do the "what I told you was true, from a certain point of view" thing. Too much of a stretch for me, though.

We know Shar has gobbled up other deities in the past. We know a couple times she failed, too. We also know of her pretending to be fallen powers. Shar has every reason to try to subsume Mask, and it's in character for her to try all sorts of shenanigans to gain power. A false claim about being his superior seems right up her alley.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 05 May 2021 :  01:54:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You could easily argue that a connection should have been there. I won't dispute that; it's an obvious one. My issue is that there wasn't a connection or a hint of a connection before, and then suddenly he's her servant and always has been. That's a retcon.

One especially has to question why, if Mask was a servant of Shar, was he allowed to become weakened by the Cyrinishad and then hunted by Kezef. If Mask was Shar's servant, weakening him weakens her -- and it's canon that Shar very jealously guarded her power. Weakening her servant also would impact her plans and potentially set them back.

This is another reason I would say it was all Sharran propaganda.

Though you could spin it a different way, I suppose. Maybe Shar had a servant on some other world, one that was her herald -- and Mask grabbed and subsumed that herald at some point. It doesn't put Mask under her, but it lets you do the "what I told you was true, from a certain point of view" thing. Too much of a stretch for me, though.

We know Shar has gobbled up other deities in the past. We know a couple times she failed, too. We also know of her pretending to be fallen powers. Shar has every reason to try to subsume Mask, and it's in character for her to try all sorts of shenanigans to gain power. A false claim about being his superior seems right up her alley.



Just playing devil's advocate here, so I'm going to try and come up with some reasons to answer your questions, and again.... I'm honestly forgetting "why" he was her servant and/or what he was doing in the novel. I seem to remember some name like Kesson Rel or something.

On there being no previous information on it... again, he might have not have wanted his clergy to know about the ties. He's not exactly the kind of deity that tells his priests everything... and they probably are more concerned with their next score/theft than they are about religious history (some of Faerun's clergy I see heavily interested in history... others, like Umberlee and Mask, are less interested in religious history than "trade history" ).

Why have him read the Cyrinishad? Well, let us not forget, Cyric ALSO became something LIKE a servant for her. She sent him off to kill Mystra in a grand intrigue AFTER he took the intrigue portfolio from Mask. So, she "decreased" one piece and used it to "increase" another piece that she was building up for a major power play.

Why have Kezef chasing him? It stops him from becoming a thorn in Cyric's side while she grooms him for the service she wants to send him on.

So, given the above, saying "weakening him weakens Shar" isn't necessarily true. Its just moving power where she needs it to be held, almost like swapping a pawn out and making it a more powerful piece (stressing on almost, as I know that isn't a perfect analogy).


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TBeholder
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Posted - 05 May 2021 :  20:26:52  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You could easily argue that a connection should have been there. I won't dispute that; it's an obvious one. My issue is that there wasn't a connection or a hint of a connection before, and then suddenly he's her servant and always has been. That's a retcon.

Indeed. Too obvious to omit unless there's nothing.
quote:
This is another reason I would say it was all Sharran propaganda.
[...] Shar has every reason to try to subsume Mask, and it's in character for her to try all sorts of shenanigans to gain power. A false claim about being his superior seems right up her alley.

Or just mortals randomly blundering about.
Much like that Cult of She-Spider double heresy, but this time on a path one of the deities involved may deem useful and the other may want to curb (and he happens to have the largest crowd of sneaky backstabbers among his followers).

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Ayrik
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Posted - 07 May 2021 :  19:08:51  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Erevis interpreted the term "Herald" as meaning "servant" - and Mask didn't comment or correct this understanding - but a "Herald" isn't necessarily some junior ensign or cornet, some flashy messenger or prosaic announcer who simply precedes the arrival of more important personages. A "Herald of Shar" could be a sovereign, an ambassador, a consort, an oracle - all sorts of things which do not hold lesser station to Shar.

Mask had nothing to say about what "Herald of Shar" really meant. And it's never been explained or expanded in proper detail. The only evidence of the title was a remnant found on a destroyed world, itself destroyed shortly thereafter.
We assume "herald" indicates a servant's station simply because Erevis assumed/suggested it indicates a servant's station. Given Mask's relationship with Erevis - his taciturn, deceptive, opportunistic, manipulative, and self-serving interactions - it would be consistent for Mask to let Erevis believe whatever (mis)truths happen to be convenient.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 07 May 2021 :  20:32:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Erevis interpreted the term "Herald" as meaning "servant" - and Mask didn't comment or correct this understanding - but a "Herald" isn't necessarily some junior ensign or cornet, some flashy messenger or prosaic announcer who simply precedes the arrival of more important personages. A "Herald of Shar" could be a sovereign, an ambassador, a consort, an oracle - all sorts of things which do not hold lesser station to Shar.



All of those still indicate a connection to Shar, though -- a connection that isn't even implied anywhere else.

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Ayrik
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Posted - 08 May 2021 :  00:30:44  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
All of those still indicate a connection to Shar, though -- a connection that isn't even implied anywhere else.
quote:
In the 2E and 3E deity books, there is no mention of a connection between Shar and Mask. None at all. They were not allies and certainly not master/servant.

And there's no connection in the fiction, either, until it was suddenly relevant in the Erevis Cale books.

I think this sudden forced connection was part of the "shadowz and darkness are kewl, so moar Shar!" thing so prevalent in 3E/4E. I don't like it for that reason, and also because it is a retcon.

Your points are valid.

We all know the Realms contain plenty of arbitrarily shoehorned "this is kewl" contrivances. Before it was all about the Shadovar, it was all about Elves and Drow. After it was all about the Shadovar, it was all about the Dragonborn and the Tieflings. Or maybe Chosens, or Phaerimms, or Liches, or Mythals, or something.

But Shadows were the "kewl" thing for a little while, and Mask was (briefly) elevated to lofty and awesome status while he trailed behind Shar's lofty awesome dark glory ... almost as if he were her personal shadow. Mask's presence fell upon everything Shar's darkness touched. Mask's presence heralded Shar's darkness by falling upon things ahead of Shar's movements. Mask's shadows concealed things from Shar or Shar's enemies before her arrival as often as they revealed things to Shar or to Shar's enemies.

Doesn't have to make any more sense than, say, a Mystra suddenly deciding to shake the whole cosmos apart with her personal (and juvenile) hate-filled vendetta against a useless trickster god who never had anything to do with her divine station and portfolio.

Realmslore is full of flaws and oversights. The apparent sudden prominence of Mask and Shar is one of these problems ... but at least it's one "kewl" (and popular) enough to merit some effort towards explaining it with greater depth, context, and consistency.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 08 May 2021 00:40:45
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Dalor Darden
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To me, Light is more important than darkness in the creation of Shadow. Mask only serves himself…being a “herald” could be as simple as meaning a foretelling of something…not a servant.

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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

To me, Light is more important than darkness in the creation of Shadow. Mask only serves himself…being a “herald” could be as simple as meaning a foretelling of something…not a servant.



How do you foretell something that predates you?

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Dalor Darden
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

To me, Light is more important than darkness in the creation of Shadow. Mask only serves himself…being a “herald” could be as simple as meaning a foretelling of something…not a servant.



How do you foretell something that predates you?



His presence could simply Herald a rise in the power of Shar...

Sort of like a comet moving through our system that is younger than the asteroid following it might Herald a disaster impact.

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Lord Karsus
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

How do you foretell something that predates you?


-If I am recalling correctly, the books portrayed Mask and Shar as being multispheric entities. I did like the concept presented that Mask's appearance and activity marked the soon-arrival of Shar and the perpetration of the ultimate thief- all of existence (of that crystalsphere).

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Posted - 13 May 2021 :  04:17:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

How do you foretell something that predates you?


-If I am recalling correctly, the books portrayed Mask and Shar as being multispheric entities. I did like the concept presented that Mask's appearance and activity marked the soon-arrival of Shar and the perpetration of the ultimate thief- all of existence (of that crystalsphere).



Honestly, Shar being multispheric is another thing that bugs me. For one thing, this is yet another of those things that just came out of nowhere. For another thing, I don't think it fits her character. She's been described as wanting to return to the nothingness that originally existed in Realmspace -- so why would she bother paying attention to anything beyond Realmspace?

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Eldacar
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Posted - 13 May 2021 :  14:50:15  Show Profile  Visit Eldacar's Homepage Send Eldacar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

How do you foretell something that predates you?


-If I am recalling correctly, the books portrayed Mask and Shar as being multispheric entities. I did like the concept presented that Mask's appearance and activity marked the soon-arrival of Shar and the perpetration of the ultimate thief- all of existence (of that crystalsphere).



Honestly, Shar being multispheric is another thing that bugs me. For one thing, this is yet another of those things that just came out of nowhere. For another thing, I don't think it fits her character. She's been described as wanting to return to the nothingness that originally existed in Realmspace -- so why would she bother paying attention to anything beyond Realmspace?


quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus


-If I am recalling correctly, the books portrayed Mask and Shar as being multispheric entities.


A brief dive into my available 2E books (On Hallowed Ground, among others) doesn't suggest that Shar is multispheric per se.

It does, however, say there is Chant that some of Shar's proxies on the Wheel have discovered the worship of a Cerilian power, Nesirie the Lady of Mourning. And that because of it, some of Shar's proxies are hiding in Nesirie's realm to soothe/heal the pain inflicted on them by Shar in the first place. As a result, Shar's loyal bloods are outraged, reporting the berks turning stag. Shar is reportedly infuriated that Nesirie "dares to heal grief" (a foreign Power, at that), and is planning a way to destroy or subvert the Cerilian goddess.

So there may be some degree of multi-spheric conflict going on between Shar and other Powers outside Realmspace. Not Shar being a multi-spheric Power in her own right, just throwing a tantrum because some of her followers got thieved from her by a foreign goddess from a brand-new pantheon on the planar scene.

I, at least, could see why Nesirie would make Shar rage given the contrasting portfolios, alignments, and attitudes of the two deities.

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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar


A brief dive into my available 2E books (On Hallowed Ground, among others) doesn't suggest that Shar is multispheric per se.

-The Erevis Cale books.

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Posted - 14 May 2021 :  05:21:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar


A brief dive into my available 2E books (On Hallowed Ground, among others) doesn't suggest that Shar is multispheric per se.

-The Erevis Cale books.



Hence my complaint. Multiple sources fail to even hint at such, and then along comes a novel and boom, prior material is chucked out the window.

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