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Azar
Learned Scribe

282 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2021 :  00:31:38  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hello fellow Reamsfolk.

Under the Heartwarder Specialty Priest in Faiths and Avatars, it states that ->

quote:
Elves and half-elves may become heartwarders, though they invite the wrath of Hanali Celanil, the goddess of elven beauty.


What could compel one of the sylvan folk to become so devoted to a "human deity"? I can think of three (technically four, but eh) answers.

1. The elf just likes this hirsute, odoriferous and inelegant race. There is - after all - no accounting for taste .
2. The elf was raised by humans; they gradually developed a firsthand aesthetic appreciation for the human body.
3. The "elf" is a human reincarnated or permanently polymorphed into an elf. Old habits die hard.

Your point-of-view on why they do what they do is appreciated.

Also, I eventually got the sense that Sune and Hanali are amiable competitors at worst*. With that in mind, I am struggling to think of the "wrath" the top sylvan beauty would visit on those of her people that genuinely worship Lady Firehair. Would "Old Testament" (and still Chaotic Good) Hanali Celanil inflict these audacious rebels with...frizzy hair, halitosis and brittle nails?

--- --- ---

*In Faiths & Avatars, Hanali Celani is not listed as one of Sune's allies (in fact, her entry states that "Sunites have an intense rivalry with the followers of the elven goddess Hanali Celanil." although the two "share the waters of Evergold"), whereas Sune is explicitly listed as one of Hanali Celanil's allies in Demihuman Deities. Is this a one-sided alliance/friendship or even crush? Was there a significant relationship development in the two year interim between both supplements that lead to a full reconciliation? Could this simply be an authorial inconsistency?

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1822 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2021 :  01:11:19  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Characters should worship racial deities 99.999% of the time, IMNSHO.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Azar
Learned Scribe

282 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2021 :  01:29:14  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Characters should worship racial deities 99.999% of the time, IMNSHO.



Whoa! Hello there, (co-?) author of Faiths & Avatars and author of Demihuman Deities. That was some fantastic work, by the way (I spent a good long while hunting down copies of those books).

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 28 Apr 2021 :  01:54:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Characters should worship racial deities 99.999% of the time, IMNSHO.



Indeed. And they can choose from any race!

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Lord Karsus
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USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2021 :  05:28:51  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-"Wrath" does seem a bit harsh.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
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questing gm
Learned Scribe

Malaysia
102 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2021 :  08:30:04  Show Profile  Visit questing gm's Homepage Send questing gm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
-"Wrath" does seem a bit harsh.


I can imagine a small facial disfigurement such as a pimple can be seen as the 'wrath' of these two gods.
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Storyteller Hero
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USA
274 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2021 :  11:03:32  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can imagine some mishap at the person's wedding, like the dogs getting into the food before it's served to the guests, might be the kind of wrath they're inviting.

Or like if they have someone they like, but then that person meets another person that they start liking, "by chance".




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sleyvas
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USA
10260 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2021 :  12:28:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by questing gm

quote:
-"Wrath" does seem a bit harsh.


I can imagine a small facial disfigurement such as a pimple can be seen as the 'wrath' of these two gods.



Um, venereal disease.... just saying.

an echoing voice in a high lilt humphs in the affirmative, and then like all true elves adds with a haughty tone "all those human goddesses are filthy with stuff like that anyway"

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 28 Apr 2021 12:31:00
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
726 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2021 :  16:45:00  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It seems to me that a half-elf raised in a human-majority environment would be more likely to worship a human deity. Having them punished by an elven god should make the human god tell her to butt out. I would expect the elven gods to do the same thing if a half-elf was raised in an elf-majority environment and a human god got all snooty about it.

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TBeholder
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2088 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2021 :  18:10:47  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Elves and half-elves may become heartwarders, though they invite the wrath of Hanali Celanil, the goddess of elven beauty.


What could compel one of the sylvan folk to become so devoted to a "human deity"? I can think of three (technically four, but eh) answers.

"Sylvan" perhaps wouldn't. The town elves, however...
Matter of different attitude, perhaps.

quote:

Also, I eventually got the sense that Sune and Hanali are amiable competitors at worst*. With that in mind, I am struggling to think of the "wrath"
[ . . . ]
In Faiths & Avatars, Hanali Celani is not listed as one of Sune's allies (in fact, her entry states that "Sunites have an intense rivalry with the followers of the elven goddess Hanali Celanil."
although the two "share the waters of Evergold"), whereas Sune is explicitly listed as one of Hanali Celanil's allies in Demihuman Deities.

"Sunites". My reading is that the ladies have a low-key, "just enough to not get bored" friendly rivalry, while their followers feel more competitive.
And on the elven side... you know how those elves feel about the Seldarine. The drow weren't "cast down" for atrocities as such, but for heresy.
Which brings us to another point. IMO for the elves worship of the Seldarine, the Tru Elvish way of life and attitudes toward just about anything in general are linked very strongly.
Which is why it cuts both ways. Especially combined with their habit of not stopping at the count of 99% (nor at 199%, sometimes) if they get off their behinds to do anything.
The elves are used to think of themselves and their ways as one and the same and the greatest thing ever... but that's also why as much as thinking "X is So Cool!" can start some serious leaning somewhere else. Their self-absorption is hard and opaque, but also fragile; once broken through, it's not in the way, and was there anything else?

Suppose an elf girl sees a pack of moondancers who run through things without slowing down and thinks "okay, the spider-kissing deal is icky, but hey, the drow as such are awesome!".
There's a good chance she won't stop at mere musings, but will personally join the butt-neckid moonlit dance(c) at some point, and dye her hair silver for good measure.

Or: what if the Avariel worship of Winged Mother used to be pure henotheism? Back when they were more numerous. But as "cool guys who fight dragons in teh skies and doesn't afraid of anything", well...
Pretty soon the only sane response "mainstream" elves had was to just formally include Aedrie Faenya in the Seldarine and pretend nothing unusual happens.
She does not object, but still usually hangs out with Syranita, rather than that crowd. And everyone's happy.

Likewise with a random human god whose followers for some reason earned a moment of admiration unrestrained by arrogance from the given elf.
Elorshin Floshin is a gold elf Cleric of Tyr; but then, Floshins were deviating from the traditional Elven ways and dealt with humans a lot.
Sune, why not. Elves value beauty, after all. But there also are more specific implications, of course.

Now let's look at a specific Sunite elf presented in more details than stat line. I found one.
quote:
City of Ravens Bluff (by Ed Greenwood).
The Wizards Guild :

Lady Belinda Moonglow, Dean of Enchantment and Charm (CG ef W15 [Enchantress])
Tall and lushly built for a moon elf, Lady Moonglow stands almost six feet in height, with an ample rather than slender figure; there's clearly
human blood somewhere back in her ancestry
. She has the pale, glowing white skin, bright green eyes with lush black lashes, and long, silky black
hair of her famous Sembian family. The premier socialite of the Guild, Belinda is an unabashed hedonist. Her frequent visits to the temple of Sune
Firehair have brought on (justified) accusations that her loyalties are divided between Guild and temple, Her habit of attempting to seduce any
new Guildmember who strikes her fancy upsets her fellow Deans and has caused more than one shy wizard to flee precipitously at the sound of her
voice. She hates dignity, pomposity, and propriety - drawing no distinction between the three - and deliberately dresses to shock.
Not surprisingly, her school has suffered under her inattentive regime. Most of the lower-ranked enchanters and enchantresses spend their time
vying for her attention (in Guild parlance, "enjoying the Moonglow") rather than researching new spells or dealing with Guild business. The
Archmage has warned her to do something about the disarray, to no avail, and is now quietly drawing up plans for her replacement as soon as a likely
candidate surfaces. To her credit, Belinda's "generous nature" extends to sharing spells and spell refinements (she is particularly interested in making
castings swifter or less obvious in delicate situations). She dislikes any emphasis on rank and seeks to embrace non-Guildmembers as fellow practitioners
of the Great Art. Completely free of prejudice against any being because of its gender or species, she has discovered that "evil and rapacious"
races such as drow, orcs, illithids, and dopplegangers hold a surprisingly large number of individuals who enjoy getting to know a traditional racial
enemy. As a result, Belinda has many friends and lovers among unexpected folk; she is the only dean as much at home in a sailors' low dive as at a noble's ball.
When she thinks beyond her daily pleasures, Lady Moonglow sometimes dreams of building Ravens Bluff into at least an echo of lost Cormanthyr: a
realm or city-state where elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and humans can live in harmony and magical might. Perhaps, one day, she'll know the glory
of participating in the weaving of a mythal (vivid descriptions of the ecstasy of being a part of the raising of Myth Drannor have been told and retold to
younglings in her clan down the years). If she does lose her post in the next inevitable crisis, as seems likely, she will probably become the Guild's liaison with the Temple of Sune.
[ . . . ]
The Walking Tour :
They have many adherents among the nobility and the wealthy merchants; social climbers are attracted to
temple services whenever the Lady Belinda Moonglow, another of the Wizards Guild deans, attends, for she
always makes a show of parading through the streets beforehand, beckoning bystanders to follow her.

Given the usual approach of the elves (again, not necessarily Seldarine's, seeing how Sehanine adopted a little fey-ri orphan)?
Even more so around Ravensgate, of all places.
A part of this may be "stick it to them" response.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 28 Apr 2021 18:57:08
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2088 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2021 :  19:24:20  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As to "the wrath of Hanali Celanil", it's of course a matter of speculation as all things divine.
She seems to rarely bother with it, but when she does, her slaps are indirect, but very precise and very painful to the other party.

There was an Elven myth where she was displeased with Corellon acting high and mighty, so she made him face his hypocrisy in response.

Or, consider that it's quite feasible Hanali Celanil would see the way Amnestria and Bran were treated as an affront to herself and all she stands for.
Now remember before whose statue Arylin danced... and how a bunch of royal elves were hissing, going paler and so on.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 28 Apr 2021 19:30:34
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1783 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2021 :  00:30:06  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The reasons someone might find worship outside their race are likely as varied as the number of individuals who do so. Any of the following (and more) may be the case:

1. They are fascinated with the race in question and gravitate to one of their gods
2. Said deity may have 'spoken' to them to draw them over to their worship
3. They were raised by said race or even in a temple of the deity they now worship
4. They fell in love with a member of said race and were willing to worship their god(s)
5. They have a more 'expansive' view of the gods and see the god as one and the same (Sune IS Hanali, for instance) rather than different entities
6. They rebel against their people for one reason or another (I mean, let's face it, Torilian elves are responsible for some rather nasty atrocities)

The list can go on.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
726 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2021 :  00:52:56  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

The reasons someone might find worship outside their race are likely as varied as the number of individuals who do so. Any of the following (and more) may be the case:

1. They are fascinated with the race in question and gravitate to one of their gods
2. Said deity may have 'spoken' to them to draw them over to their worship
3. They were raised by said race or even in a temple of the deity they now worship
4. They fell in love with a member of said race and were willing to worship their god(s)
5. They have a more 'expansive' view of the gods and see the god as one and the same (Sune IS Hanali, for instance) rather than different entities
6. They rebel against their people for one reason or another (I mean, let's face it, Torilian elves are responsible for some rather nasty atrocities)

The list can go on.



I am actually using your number 3 to explain why a halfling would be a priest of Eldath. Of course, the whole thing is surrounded by secrets and lies.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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deserk
Learned Scribe

Norway
169 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2021 :  11:13:46  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the D&D racial pantheons (Moradin, Corellon, Gruumsh, etc.) didn't exist in Ed's home campaign until the Forgotten Realms became part of D&D. So that would entail that either everyone, regardless of race, worshipped a variety of Faerunian gods, or there were some gods from Ed's FR that didn't make it through or have a vastly different significance compared to the published Realms. For example, the relatively obscure orc god Herne the Huntmaster (who was slain by Malar in the Times of Troubles in the published Realms) may perhaps have been the primary deity of the orcs in Ed's world. But that's just me speculating.

Gods shouldn't really be completely limited to "human", "elf", or "dwarf" etc, in my opinion. They are gods. They are powerful immortal and divine entities that are beyond mortal comprehension, and should be perfectly capable of taking any form they wish and appealing to any potential worshipper they want. Not to mention, they most likely have a vested interest in getting as many followers as they can.

It does though makes sense for the human, elven, dwarven mortal worshippers themselves to purely view them through the lens of their own race and culture, and thus claim "ownership" over them. In a vastly cosmopolitan city like Waterdeep (where elves make up 10 % of the population according to FRCS 3rd) it does make sense for elves to be capable of adopting the "human" interpretation of the Faerunian gods, since they might be presented overwhelmingly with that cultural image. But maybe in places like Evermeet and Evereska there are some unique aspects of various Faerunian gods that are worshipped by a certain percentage of people (most likely deities that have good relations with the Seldarine).

Edited by - deserk on 01 May 2021 11:26:08
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 01 May 2021 :  16:55:26  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can think of one other reason:

*The elf does not like Hanali Celanil's religion, faith or beliefs. An elf might like the "beauty concept" but not like Hanali Celanil "spin" on it. So they still want to worship "beauty", and Sune fits more what they want.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34915 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2021 :  18:17:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deserk

Gods shouldn't really be completely limited to "human", "elf", or "dwarf" etc, in my opinion. They are gods. They are powerful immortal and divine entities that are beyond mortal comprehension, and should be perfectly capable of taking any form they wish and appealing to any potential worshipper they want. Not to mention, they most likely have a vested interest in getting as many followers as they can.

It does though makes sense for the human, elven, dwarven mortal worshippers themselves to purely view them through the lens of their own race and culture, and thus claim "ownership" over them. In a vastly cosmopolitan city like Waterdeep (where elves make up 10 % of the population according to FRCS 3rd) it does make sense for elves to be capable of adopting the "human" interpretation of the Faerunian gods, since they might be presented overwhelmingly with that cultural image. But maybe in places like Evermeet and Evereska there are some unique aspects of various Faerunian gods that are worshipped by a certain percentage of people (most likely deities that have good relations with the Seldarine).



I can see arguments for and against racial pantheons. I myself went from not liking racial pantheons to embracing them.

For me, it comes down to the world itself and the origin of its races. A setting like the Realms exists (or did exist) in a larger universe, and many of its peoples came from other worlds. For a setup like that, racial pantheons make sense -- they had their own single pantheons on their homeworlds, but now they're no longer confined to that single world, so their pantheons have travelled with them.

In other settings, though, like Eberron, where it's just the one world and that's it, everyone worshipping the same pantheon makes more sense.

There's also the approach in Dragonstar, which didn't work for me but I can see how others might like it: there were only like 20-something gods, period, for all worlds. The god of the forge might be Anvilus on one world and Hammerguy on a world a thousand light years away, but it's still the same deity. The main reason I don't like this one is that different cultures have a different perspective on things, and one thing that's respected in one place could be reviled in another. Look at the real world: for the Norse, the god of mischief and trickery was ultimately a bad guy. For some of the Native American tribes, though, the god of mischief and trickery was somewhere between a harmless prankster and a benefactor of man. It's things like that that make me favor regional and racial pantheons.

There's also the world of Midgard approach, where this deity of the forge here is this other deity elsewhere, and could be this entirely different one in another spot -- and sometimes they're good-aligned in one spot and neutral or even evil elsewhere. I *really* dislike this approach. I don't mind some mystery, which is the design objective, but I need something more concrete than "good guy X may or may not be bad guy Y". To me, their approach reduces the deities to mere concepts, and I have never liked the idea of worshipping a concept instead of a specific entity.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 May 2021 19:43:28
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Azar
Learned Scribe

282 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2021 :  02:30:01  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-"Wrath" does seem a bit harsh.



Hell hath no fury like an elf maiden scorned.

quote:
Originally posted by questing gm

quote:
-"Wrath" does seem a bit harsh.


I can imagine a small facial disfigurement such as a pimple can be seen as the 'wrath' of these two gods.



Maybe she makes the worshiper in question more closely resemble a human (even if only temporarily)? Partial transformations of that nature do not sound like much of a punishment, however.

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

I can imagine some mishap at the person's wedding, like the dogs getting into the food before it's served to the guests, might be the kind of wrath they're inviting.

Or like if they have someone they like, but then that person meets another person that they start liking, "by chance".


That's not bad. I wonder how egregious the initial "sin" must be in order to warrant that sort of divine intervention and I do wonder how far she would take those lessons.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by questing gm

quote:
-"Wrath" does seem a bit harsh.


I can imagine a small facial disfigurement such as a pimple can be seen as the 'wrath' of these two gods.



Um, venereal disease.... just saying.

an echoing voice in a high lilt humphs in the affirmative, and then like all true elves adds with a haughty tone "all those human goddesses are filthy with stuff like that anyway"



An elf can resist the grave-cold grasp of a ghoul, but a "social disease" is a step too far .

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

It seems to me that a half-elf raised in a human-majority environment would be more likely to worship a human deity. Having them punished by an elven god should make the human god tell her to butt out. I would expect the elven gods to do the same thing if a half-elf was raised in an elf-majority environment and a human god got all snooty about it.



This is true. Visiting such wrath upon a Half-Elf makes less sense because they are sharing two bloodlines. It is a shame that Hanali doesn't open up her worship to Humans; more followers tends to equal greater deific power. Maybe there's a reason why Sune is a Greater Deity and Hanali remains an Intermediate one (aside from Corellon not wanting to share a "top god" position with a single aspect of Angharradh, that is?).

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

"Sylvan" perhaps wouldn't. The town elves, however...
Matter of different attitude, perhaps.


I used a broader sense of the label; the elves are a race close to the woodlands* (and nature as a whole).

*Barring outliers such as "present-day" aquatic elves and most drow, of course.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

"Sunites". My reading is that the ladies have a low-key, "just enough to not get bored" friendly rivalry, while their followers feel more competitive.
And on the elven side... you know how those elves feel about the Seldarine. The drow weren't "cast down" for atrocities as such, but for heresy.
Which brings us to another point. IMO for the elves worship of the Seldarine, the Tru Elvish way of life and attitudes toward just about anything in general are linked very strongly.
Which is why it cuts both ways. Especially combined with their habit of not stopping at the count of 99% (nor at 199%, sometimes) if they get off their behinds to do anything.
The elves are used to think of themselves and their ways as one and the same and the greatest thing ever... but that's also why as much as thinking "X is So Cool!" can start some serious leaning somewhere else. Their self-absorption is hard and opaque, but also fragile; once broken through, it's not in the way, and was there anything else?


This is probably why elves tend to lighten up around humans after spending sufficient time with them, yes? Of course, that may just be a tabletop gaming trope employed for the sake of cooperation .

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Suppose an elf girl sees a pack of moondancers who run through things without slowing down and thinks "okay, the spider-kissing deal is icky, but hey, the drow as such are awesome!".
There's a good chance she won't stop at mere musings, but will personally join the butt-neckid moonlit dance(c) at some point, and dye her hair silver for good measure.


You reminded of a novel (the precise name escapes me) where there was a "surface elf" that worshiped Eilistraee. This elf went so far as to darken her skin (with cosmetics, presumably?) because she wanted to more closely resemble her goddess or perhaps that specific standard of beauty. Eilistraee is a sort of beauty goddess, after all...

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Or: what if the Avariel worship of Winged Mother used to be pure henotheism? Back when they were more numerous. But as "cool guys who fight dragons in teh skies and doesn't afraid of anything", well...
Pretty soon the only sane response "mainstream" elves had was to just formally include Aedrie Faenya in the Seldarine and pretend nothing unusual happens.
She does not object, but still usually hangs out with Syranita, rather than that crowd. And everyone's happy.


That situation seems like one born out of necessity; if you cannot fly, it is difficult to integrate into a population that exclusively consists of fliers. Consequently, the overwhelming majority of "citizens" are going to worship a deity that precisely embodies who they are.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Likewise with a random human god whose followers for some reason earned a moment of admiration unrestrained by arrogance from the given elf.
Elorshin Floshin is a gold elf Cleric of Tyr; but then, Floshins were deviating from the traditional Elven ways and dealt with humans a lot.


Elf paladins (and I know that priests of Tyr aren't exactly paladins, but they're close) are fascinating. Tyr is Lawful Good and elven culture tends towards Chaotic Good. There's an ethical pull that tends to discourage Corellon's children from pursuing such a life.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Sune, why not. Elves value beauty, after all. But there also are more specific implications, of course.

Now let's look at a specific Sunite elf presented in more details than stat line. I found one.
quote:
City of Ravens Bluff (by Ed Greenwood).
The Wizards Guild :

Lady Belinda Moonglow, Dean of Enchantment and Charm (CG ef W15 [Enchantress])
Tall and lushly built for a moon elf, Lady Moonglow stands almost six feet in height, with an ample rather than slender figure; there's clearly
human blood somewhere back in her ancestry
. She has the pale, glowing white skin, bright green eyes with lush black lashes, and long, silky black
hair of her famous Sembian family. The premier socialite of the Guild, Belinda is an unabashed hedonist. Her frequent visits to the temple of Sune
Firehair have brought on (justified) accusations that her loyalties are divided between Guild and temple, Her habit of attempting to seduce any
new Guildmember who strikes her fancy upsets her fellow Deans and has caused more than one shy wizard to flee precipitously at the sound of her
voice. She hates dignity, pomposity, and propriety - drawing no distinction between the three - and deliberately dresses to shock.
Not surprisingly, her school has suffered under her inattentive regime. Most of the lower-ranked enchanters and enchantresses spend their time
vying for her attention (in Guild parlance, "enjoying the Moonglow") rather than researching new spells or dealing with Guild business. The
Archmage has warned her to do something about the disarray, to no avail, and is now quietly drawing up plans for her replacement as soon as a likely
candidate surfaces. To her credit, Belinda's "generous nature" extends to sharing spells and spell refinements (she is particularly interested in making
castings swifter or less obvious in delicate situations). She dislikes any emphasis on rank and seeks to embrace non-Guildmembers as fellow practitioners
of the Great Art. Completely free of prejudice against any being because of its gender or species, she has discovered that "evil and rapacious"
races such as drow, orcs, illithids, and dopplegangers hold a surprisingly large number of individuals who enjoy getting to know a traditional racial
enemy. As a result, Belinda has many friends and lovers among unexpected folk; she is the only dean as much at home in a sailors' low dive as at a noble's ball.
When she thinks beyond her daily pleasures, Lady Moonglow sometimes dreams of building Ravens Bluff into at least an echo of lost Cormanthyr: a
realm or city-state where elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and humans can live in harmony and magical might. Perhaps, one day, she'll know the glory
of participating in the weaving of a mythal (vivid descriptions of the ecstasy of being a part of the raising of Myth Drannor have been told and retold to
younglings in her clan down the years). If she does lose her post in the next inevitable crisis, as seems likely, she will probably become the Guild's liaison with the Temple of Sune.
[ . . . ]
The Walking Tour :
They have many adherents among the nobility and the wealthy merchants; social climbers are attracted to
temple services whenever the Lady Belinda Moonglow, another of the Wizards Guild deans, attends, for she
always makes a show of parading through the streets beforehand, beckoning bystanders to follow her.

Given the usual approach of the elves (again, not necessarily Seldarine's, seeing how Sehanine adopted a little fey-ri orphan)?
Even more so around Ravensgate, of all places.
A part of this may be "stick it to them" response.



What a great find! Did you happen to have that excerpt on hand or did you conduct some research for this thread?

The example you presented makes quite a bit of sense. Given the lady's personal experience/perspective, it stands to reason that her breaking from orthodoxy came easy...or at least easier than "full blooded" elves that long ago relinquished similar dreams.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2088 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2021 :  19:07:22  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

It seems to me that a half-elf raised in a human-majority environment would be more likely to worship a human deity. Having them punished by an elven god should make the human god tell her to butt out. I would expect the elven gods to do the same thing if a half-elf was raised in an elf-majority environment and a human god got all snooty about it.

Well, that's mostly among the worshipers and applies to pureblood elves.
There was a (canon) half-elven priestess of both goddesses, IIRC.

quote:
Originally posted by deserk

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the D&D racial pantheons (Moradin, Corellon, Gruumsh, etc.) didn't exist in Ed's home campaign until the Forgotten Realms became part of D&D.
So that would entail that either everyone, regardless of race, worshipped a variety of Faerunian gods, or there were some gods from Ed's FR that didn't make it through or have a vastly different significance compared to the published Realms.

Does not follow.
quote:
Gods shouldn't really be completely limited to "human", "elf", or "dwarf" etc, in my opinion. They are gods. They are powerful immortal and divine entities that are beyond mortal comprehension, and should be perfectly capable of taking any form they wish and appealing to any potential worshipper they want.

They can appear however they want, but religions have origins, and tend to propagate along with other traditions, i.e. associated with specific peoples unless on a huge cosmopolitan trade crossroad.
Netherese pantheon is not the same as Mulhorandi or Calishite. Why the dwarves or elves would not have their own gods?
IIRC, origin of the dwarf pantheon was explained as aggregation of henotheistic traditions. They all were worshiped by specific clans, but eventually those clans started fighting a lot, and then there was an obvious need to stop it, so they united as a monolithic pantheon.
Those who didn't get along with this crowd (Duerra, Diirinka) led their clans to likewise not mix with the rest of dwarves.

quote:
Originally posted by Azar


Hell hath no fury like an elf maiden scorned.

Evidence: the Banshees.
quote:
Barring outliers such as "present-day" aquatic elves and most drow, of course.

And the Avariel. Oh, just remembered: Taegan Nightwind is a Sunite, too!
But he was grumpy due to his tribe living much like Green elves because they had to hide from the dragons, then visited Impiltur, and it's a civilized place. As in, he didn't see the Avariel living as they like to, much less a glassteel fortress.

quote:
This is probably why elves tend to lighten up around humans after spending sufficient time with them, yes?

Perhaps, the adventurers are constrained by other things, so they have easier time to get along. And have opportunities for posturing until they are tired of it, but focused on their actual advantages rather than general self-adoration.
There may be chicken-and-egg thing, however: elves who would even consider going somewhere dangerous with a bunch of humans (and... dwarves!) are already are not sticking to the traditional "barbarian elf" (in Zakharan definition) standards.
quote:
That situation seems like one born out of necessity; if you cannot fly, it is difficult to integrate into a population that exclusively consists of fliers. Consequently, the overwhelming majority of "citizens" are going to worship a deity that precisely embodies who they are.

They could have more specialized gods, if they needed more. Evidently they didn't.
But yes, the Avariel apparently didn't mix with mainstream "Tel Quessir" from times immemorial. And mostly one-sided contact would hinder any attempts to proselytize, also without trying.
quote:
What a great find! Did you happen to have that excerpt on hand or did you conduct some research for this thread?

I just remember her as one of those "odd elves" who really stand out.
quote:
The example you presented makes quite a bit of sense. Given the lady's personal experience/perspective, it stands to reason that her breaking from orthodoxy came easy...or at least easier than "full blooded" elves that long ago relinquished similar dreams.

Also, their family history.
quote:
City of Ravens Bluff (by Ed Greenwood): Ways To Elsewhere

After the orcs burned and plundered Sarbreen, the elves feared that the increasingly numerous "Strange Ones" slipping through the gates, now
unimpeded by any Faerƻnian authorities or even observers, would found their own empires. To prevent this possible threat to elven interests, teams
of elven warrior mages descended upon the settlements to slay or expel the strangers, seal the gates, and cast concealing magics on them. Not all the
outlanders went willingly, and some brief bitter battles resulted from this outburst of elven xenophobia. At least one gate was destroyed at this time,
in a spectacular explosion that considerably enlarged the natural harbor of Sarbreen and sent tom and flaming elven corpses high into the air. The
other gates were either sealed or hidden (some by the elves, others by retreating offworlders). Most have since been truly lost and forgotten,


...
quote:
City of Ravens Bluff (by Ed Greenwood): The Noble Families of Ravens Bluff

Of Cormanthan origin, this small but active family of moon elves inhabited the bankside woods along the Fire River before Ravens Bluff was settled,
having originally been posted there to keep watch on the dimension gates of Lost Sarbreen (see page 9). They always aided arriving humans against
orc raids, using deadly accurate archery and a family-developed spell that enables Moonglow elves to briefly take on wolf-shape. The passing years
saw the Moonglows lose control of the woodlands to human settlers, but the canny elven family decided this was inevitable and sold what they were
going to lose anyway in exchange for much coin and for the buyers agreeing to spare certain stands of trees. Imparting their sense of the value of the forest,
the Moonglows managed to prevent too much clearing for farmland, with the results that great stands of trees have survived virtually untouched
down to the present day.
The original Moonglows are all gone now, having slipped away to Evermeet one by one over the years, leaving the younger generation to deal
with their human neighbors. The Moonglows in Raven Bluff today are slim, elegant magic-wielders, most only a century or two old. They're apt to
be a trifle arrogant, deadly with thrown daggers, and protected by small personal magics that enable them to evade most sudden dangers. The
Moonglows don't court strife, preferring to spend much of their time making bone flutes, handpipes, lutes, and other musical instruments that are largely or
wholly carved from living things.
The head of House Moonglow is Lord Erendriel, an archer of uncanny skill (he can hit a moving target as small as an orc's eyeball a quarter-mile
off). He leads his sisters Lady Belinda (a Dean in the Wizards Guild; see "The Wizards Guild" chapter for much more about her), Lady Muerlara (a
musician of great skill on a wide variety of instruments), Lady Nambra (whose magical skills are considerable), and a much younger brother, the
hot-headed Lord Nieven (whose chief accomplishment thus far seems to be acrobatic escapes from brawls he's started).

So the elves mostly closed those gates and had all those icky extraplanars and not-Seldarine-related Planetouched slaughtered or chased off, then moved on, leaving behind a clan to watch the gates.
The "watchers" who didn't like to live around the humans moved away one by one. The ones still living there are those who get along with humans and others.
And one of them worships Sune very, very demonstratively. Obviously, she enjoys this, but in part it seems to be posturing/"making a point", makes sense in context.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Azar
Learned Scribe

282 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2021 :  11:13:16  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

5. They have a more 'expansive' view of the gods and see the god as one and the same (Sune IS Hanali, for instance) rather than different entities.



This change started with 4e, yes? All I know is that "Sune <-> Hanali Celanil" and "Talos <-> Gruumsh". Was this carried over to 5e?

You could argue that there's real-world historical precedent to justify that change, but I prefer having the myriad gods and I definitely like the idea of multiple racial pantheons. Honestly, it felt as though Wizards of the Coast was quarter-assing during the 4e update of the Realm's lore; the gods were certainly no exception when it came to their policy of "streamlining".

--- --- ---

All that aside, I wonder how (or even if) a character such as Larajin would be possible in 2e.

quote:
Larajin was a cleric of two goddesses; one human, one elven, a reflection of her half-elven nature. She worshiped both Sune and Hanali Celanil and received her divine magic from each of the two goddesses. When she cast spells by Hanali, the scent of fragrant flowers surrounded Larajin; when she cast spells bestowed upon her by Sune, her hands shone with a distinct red radiance.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34915 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2021 :  13:25:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

5. They have a more 'expansive' view of the gods and see the god as one and the same (Sune IS Hanali, for instance) rather than different entities.



This change started with 4e, yes? All I know is that "Sune <-> Hanali Celanil" and "Talos <-> Gruumsh". Was this carried over to 5e?



They quietly walked it back.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1526 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2021 :  11:20:08  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

Hello fellow Reamsfolk.

Under the Heartwarder Specialty Priest in Faiths and Avatars, it states that ->

quote:
Elves and half-elves may become heartwarders, though they invite the wrath of Hanali Celanil, the goddess of elven beauty.


What could compel one of the sylvan folk to become so devoted to a "human deity"? I can think of three (technically four, but eh) answers.

1. The elf just likes this hirsute, odoriferous and inelegant race. There is - after all - no accounting for taste .
2. The elf was raised by humans; they gradually developed a firsthand aesthetic appreciation for the human body.
3. The "elf" is a human reincarnated or permanently polymorphed into an elf. Old habits die hard.

Your point-of-view on why they do what they do is appreciated.

Also, I eventually got the sense that Sune and Hanali are amiable competitors at worst*. With that in mind, I am struggling to think of the "wrath" the top sylvan beauty would visit on those of her people that genuinely worship Lady Firehair. Would "Old Testament" (and still Chaotic Good) Hanali Celanil inflict these audacious rebels with...frizzy hair, halitosis and brittle nails?

--- --- ---

*In Faiths & Avatars, Hanali Celani is not listed as one of Sune's allies (in fact, her entry states that "Sunites have an intense rivalry with the followers of the elven goddess Hanali Celanil." although the two "share the waters of Evergold"), whereas Sune is explicitly listed as one of Hanali Celanil's allies in Demihuman Deities. Is this a one-sided alliance/friendship or even crush? Was there a significant relationship development in the two year interim between both supplements that lead to a full reconciliation? Could this simply be an authorial inconsistency?



The hilarious irony being 4e revealed them to he the same God before 5e separated them again.
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Azar
Learned Scribe

282 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2021 :  07:23:05  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

I can think of one other reason:

*The elf does not like Hanali Celanil's religion, faith or beliefs. An elf might like the "beauty concept" but not like Hanali Celanil "spin" on it. So they still want to worship "beauty", and Sune fits more what they want.


No love for Eilistraee? The Dark Maiden isn't wholly concerned with beauty, but beauty does reside within her divine portfolio and she is an elf.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Perhaps, the adventurers are constrained by other things, so they have easier time to get along. And have opportunities for posturing until they are tired of it, but focused on their actual advantages rather than general self-adoration.
There may be chicken-and-egg thing, however: elves who would even consider going somewhere dangerous with a bunch of humans (and... dwarves!) are already are not sticking to the traditional "barbarian elf" (in Zakharan definition) standards.


How do you manage the balance? I'd like to keep the elves feeling suitably otherworldly while still approachable enough to make them part of the campaign. They aren't humans with pointy ears .

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

5. They have a more 'expansive' view of the gods and see the god as one and the same (Sune IS Hanali, for instance) rather than different entities.



This change started with 4e, yes? All I know is that "Sune <-> Hanali Celanil" and "Talos <-> Gruumsh". Was this carried over to 5e?



They quietly walked it back.


Oh. That isn't terribly surprising; by this point, they've well proven themselves to the master of the Selunewalk.

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

Hello fellow Reamsfolk.

Under the Heartwarder Specialty Priest in Faiths and Avatars, it states that ->

quote:
Elves and half-elves may become heartwarders, though they invite the wrath of Hanali Celanil, the goddess of elven beauty.


What could compel one of the sylvan folk to become so devoted to a "human deity"? I can think of three (technically four, but eh) answers.

1. The elf just likes this hirsute, odoriferous and inelegant race. There is - after all - no accounting for taste .
2. The elf was raised by humans; they gradually developed a firsthand aesthetic appreciation for the human body.
3. The "elf" is a human reincarnated or permanently polymorphed into an elf. Old habits die hard.

Your point-of-view on why they do what they do is appreciated.

Also, I eventually got the sense that Sune and Hanali are amiable competitors at worst*. With that in mind, I am struggling to think of the "wrath" the top sylvan beauty would visit on those of her people that genuinely worship Lady Firehair. Would "Old Testament" (and still Chaotic Good) Hanali Celanil inflict these audacious rebels with...frizzy hair, halitosis and brittle nails?

--- --- ---

*In Faiths & Avatars, Hanali Celani is not listed as one of Sune's allies (in fact, her entry states that "Sunites have an intense rivalry with the followers of the elven goddess Hanali Celanil." although the two "share the waters of Evergold"), whereas Sune is explicitly listed as one of Hanali Celanil's allies in Demihuman Deities. Is this a one-sided alliance/friendship or even crush? Was there a significant relationship development in the two year interim between both supplements that lead to a full reconciliation? Could this simply be an authorial inconsistency?



The hilarious irony being 4e revealed them to he the same God before 5e separated them again.


I have zero intention of producing precipitation above anyone's procession, but that came across as less of a revelation and more of a consolidation .

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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NonProphetApostle
Acolyte

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2021 :  02:29:43  Show Profile Send NonProphetApostle a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I played a Human Paladin of Sune back in 3e who had the Leadership feat, and his Cohort was an Elven Sorcerer who worshiped Milir. They adventured together for years, they fell in love, neither had any delusion that they would be able to spend the whole of their lives together, the life of an adventurer being what it is, and their own lifespan made that an impossibility.

When they bonded in marraige, she pledged herself to Sune for as long as her champion lived, explaining to Milir that if her song could not exist in eternal harmony with her champions, that she would be the accompaniment that echoes his chorus to the breaches of eternity to ensure that when she becomes one song again she can at least still hear the echos of him in the past.(I was like, 16 and going through an emo phase. lol)

Edit:
She eventually ended up dying at the hands of a Far Realm atrocity(I think we were roughly level 19), Enraged and emotionally broken by the sight, Sune granted him the divine power to acheive vengeance for his fallen wife, but he sacrificed his mortality to hold that power for that moment, and the two of them lived forever in Brightwater, though I guess that has probably changed now.

Edited by - NonProphetApostle on 18 May 2021 06:00:16
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Azar
Learned Scribe

282 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2021 :  01:11:21  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by NonProphetApostle

I played a Human Paladin of Sune back in 3e who had the Leadership feat, and his Cohort was an Elven Sorcerer who worshiped Milir. They adventured together for years, they fell in love, neither had any delusion that they would be able to spend the whole of their lives together, the life of an adventurer being what it is, and their own lifespan made that an impossibility.

When they bonded in marraige, she pledged herself to Sune for as long as her champion lived, explaining to Milir that if her song could not exist in eternal harmony with her champions, that she would be the accompaniment that echoes his chorus to the breaches of eternity to ensure that when she becomes one song again she can at least still hear the echos of him in the past.(I was like, 16 and going through an emo phase. lol)

Edit:
She eventually ended up dying at the hands of a Far Realm atrocity(I think we were roughly level 19), Enraged and emotionally broken by the sight, Sune granted him the divine power to acheive vengeance for his fallen wife, but he sacrificed his mortality to hold that power for that moment, and the two of them lived forever in Brightwater, though I guess that has probably changed now.



You meant "Milil", yes? In any event, that was an unexpectedly touching summary .

By the way, that interplay between two differing yet sympathetic faiths is one reason why I treasure the broad array of deities in The Forgotten Realms. Oghma could have been a simple "god of the arts", but Deneir (writing and pictorial art), Milil (music and poetry), Lathander (creativity in general) and Sune (the fine arts) also exist.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2021 :  02:03:24  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deserk

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the D&D racial pantheons (Moradin, Corellon, Gruumsh, etc.) didn't exist in Ed's home campaign until the Forgotten Realms became part of D&D. So that would entail that either everyone, regardless of race, worshipped a variety of Faerunian gods, or there were some gods from Ed's FR that didn't make it through or have a vastly different significance compared to the published Realms. For example, the relatively obscure orc god Herne the Huntmaster (who was slain by Malar in the Times of Troubles in the published Realms) may perhaps have been the primary deity of the orcs in Ed's world. But that's just me speculating.



Ed has also said that elves 99.9% worship the Seldarine (the pull of Arvandor is strong). This doesn't mean they can't also worship a "human" deity, such as Sune.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Azar
Learned Scribe

282 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2021 :  02:20:38  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:
Originally posted by deserk

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the D&D racial pantheons (Moradin, Corellon, Gruumsh, etc.) didn't exist in Ed's home campaign until the Forgotten Realms became part of D&D. So that would entail that either everyone, regardless of race, worshipped a variety of Faerunian gods, or there were some gods from Ed's FR that didn't make it through or have a vastly different significance compared to the published Realms. For example, the relatively obscure orc god Herne the Huntmaster (who was slain by Malar in the Times of Troubles in the published Realms) may perhaps have been the primary deity of the orcs in Ed's world. But that's just me speculating.



Ed has also said that elves 99.9% worship the Seldarine (the pull of Arvandor is strong). This doesn't mean they can't also worship a "human" deity, such as Sune.



Do you mean lower-case w "worship" ("Bless Sune; your face was untouched by the dragon's breath.") that most civilized beings engage in or capital w "Worship" ("I am a priest of Lady Firehair.")?

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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