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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
307 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2022 :  08:20:52  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
The only way the setting creators can avoid the problem is by continuing to ignore it, or by outright destroying or retconning the Wall. Personally, my money is on "ignore," because that seems to be par for the course these days.



For my Kelemvor pamphlet on DMsGuild, I set up a system of rules for the Wall that address potential issues and conflicts that would come from an oversimplified approach. There are exceptions, appeals, and additional hearings baked into the system to minimize the possibility of offensively unfair judgements and conflicts with other deities. It might not be perfect since I didn't go to law school but it should hopefully smooth things out for DnD campaigns that use the pamphlet.

At the end of the pamphlet, I adapted an Ed Greenwood tweet with additional lore from Magic of Incarnum to produce a theory of souls that potentially makes the Wall not so much of a dead end but the end of one's current perspective, since it can be argued the Wall is not a direct attack on the soul with a deity's power but an indirect destruction of its shell, leaving the core intact to reform elsewhere (though perhaps with amnesia).





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Eldacar
Senior Scribe

425 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2022 :  12:19:18  Show Profile Send Eldacar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

You won't find less of a stickler for adherence to "canon" than me, but I'd like to know if the Wall of the Faithless is still standing as of 5e; if the construction remains erect, then we can ask setting creators (perhaps the big cheese himself) how the Good gods feel about its presence and/or what (if any) measures to ameliorate the situation they've taken.


It was removed from the SCAG book as part of errata released last year.

Previously, the paragraph said:

"Souls that are unclaimed by the servants of the gods are judged by Kelemvor, who decides the fate of each one. Some are charged with serving as guides for other lost souls, while others are transformed into squirming larvae and cast into the dust. The truly false and faithless are mortared into the Wall of the Faithless, the great barrier that bounds the City of the Dead, where their souls slowly dissolve and begin to become part of the stuff of the Wall itself."

Currently, with the errata, it says:

"Souls that are unclaimed by the servants of the gods are judged by Kelemvor, who decides the fate of each one. Some are charged with serving as guides for other lost souls, while others are transformed into squirming larvae and cast into the dust."

It's arguable as to whether it is better or worse. Is being mortared into the Wall (where your soul will dissolve as you are used as part of the battlements protecting Kelemvor's realm from demon/devil raids on other souls) better or worse than being turned into larvae and tossed away for all eternity? Or an eternity until presumably you dissolve. Or a demon or devil picks you up. Or somebody accidentally squishes you on the way to their own judgement.

"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35998 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2022 :  14:31:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

quote:
Originally posted by Azar
You won't find less of a stickler for adherence to "canon" than me, but I'd like to know if the Wall of the Faithless is still standing as of 5e; if the construction remains erect, then we can ask setting creators (perhaps the big cheese himself) how the Good gods feel about its presence and/or what (if any) measures to ameliorate the situation they've taken.

I think they're going to avoid the question, because every possible answer is controversial. It's obvious that some people find the Wall offensive, and the setting creators can't go on record about how the good-aligned gods feel about it without violating some people's conception of good. And once you do that, you lose those people as customers, because a setting loses its verisimilitude when its supposedly all-powerful, benevolent gods are revealed to be evil morons.

The only way the setting creators can avoid the problem is by continuing to ignore it, or by outright destroying or retconning the Wall. Personally, my money is on "ignore," because that seems to be par for the course these days.



Honestly, I don't think they were actively ignoring it, as much as there was no reason to even think of it. It's never had an in-game impact and even in the fiction, its utility was very limited. It was mainly a plot device in one novel and has had almost no relevance beyond that.

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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2249 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2022 :  18:49:22  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
For my Kelemvor pamphlet on DMsGuild,



Talking about this, I'm wondering if you're going to update it to include the Raven Queen. I'm curious about what spin you're going to give them to her relationship with Kel. Heck, a Raven Queen pamphlet will be great, as well m

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
307 Posts

Posted - 13 Jan 2022 :  06:18:23  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
For my Kelemvor pamphlet on DMsGuild,



Talking about this, I'm wondering if you're going to update it to include the Raven Queen. I'm curious about what spin you're going to give them to her relationship with Kel. Heck, a Raven Queen pamphlet will be great, as well m



I had considered adding the Raven Queen to the Court of Souls, but her obsession with the past seems a bit incompatible with sending a proxy or avatar to deal with souls she likely won't even obtain for her realm.

In my opinion, I think Kelemvor would be treating the existence of the Raven Queen with caution, due to the mysteries about her identity and the strangeness of her latest activities. Perhaps an invitation sent, but not answered.

If combining different editions' lore, the current Raven Queen might actually be the second Raven Queen, with the first one slain out of vengeance at the hands of Nerull. The ascension ritual that went awry for the current Raven Queen might have involved subsuming the leftover divine essence of the previous Raven Queen.

The current Raven Queen, in her pursuit of memories, might actually become a potential threat to the Wall should any of its prisoners hold any vital information relevant to the Raven Queen's scouring of the past.



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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2249 Posts

Posted - 13 Jan 2022 :  16:45:38  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Remember that Wildemount 5e uses the lore of the 4e Raven Queen. Both lores are current. Heck, 4e's is even more current than 5e's since Wildemount is newer than Mordenkainen's.

Anyways, there is even a more lore friendly explanation for a second Raven Queen: one of the potential endings for Prince of Undeath is that Orcus killed the Raven Queen. I don't remember the exact finale of that adventure (going to check when I'm home), but, this can explain the existence of a second Raven Queen. However, she would be rather "recent", as those adventures happen in an equivalent timeline to 1479...

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11169 Posts

Posted - 13 Jan 2022 :  23:55:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Remember that Wildemount 5e uses the lore of the 4e Raven Queen. Both lores are current. Heck, 4e's is even more current than 5e's since Wildemount is newer than Mordenkainen's.

Anyways, there is even a more lore friendly explanation for a second Raven Queen: one of the potential endings for Prince of Undeath is that Orcus killed the Raven Queen. I don't remember the exact finale of that adventure (going to check when I'm home), but, this can explain the existence of a second Raven Queen. However, she would be rather "recent", as those adventures happen in an equivalent timeline to 1479...



right as Kiaransalee appears back in the realms.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Azar
Senior Scribe

764 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  00:04:19  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

I think they're going to avoid the question, because every possible answer is controversial. It's obvious that some people find the Wall offensive, and the setting creators can't go on record about how the good-aligned gods feel about it without violating some people's conception of good. And once you do that, you lose those people as customers, because a setting loses its verisimilitude when its supposedly all-powerful, benevolent gods are revealed to be evil morons.

The only way the setting creators can avoid the problem is by continuing to ignore it, or by outright destroying or retconning the Wall. Personally, my money is on "ignore," because that seems to be par for the course these days.



There is a degree of wiggle room as to how the gods feel on particular subjects, but they and their followers have been fairly well-defined and their Alignments are evident; the idea that these entities wouldn't have designs for or against this Wall of the Faithless - a massive supernatural ontological construct - is absurd. Whether they are forbidden to act by some afterlife bureaucracy or not, there can still be opinions formed on the matter.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

The gods of good can only object on moral grounds


If they have, I'd like to hear these objections (even if raised only amongst themselves).

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think.

Edited by - Azar on 14 Jan 2022 04:25:32
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2249 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  03:56:14  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just fail to understand why no god said anything when Tyr killed Helm when he felt Helm was stealing his girl, but all the godly bureaucracy will put the scream in the heavens (literally) if some god goes to Myrkul or Kelemvor to say a thing or two about the Wall...

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Jan 2022 03:57:07
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35998 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  04:53:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I just fail to understand why no god said anything when Tyr killed Helm when he felt Helm was stealing his girl, but all the godly bureaucracy will put the scream in the heavens (literally) if some god goes to Myrkul or Kelemvor to say a thing or two about the Wall...



Again, there is no proof of any of this. We don't know that none of the gods said anything about Tyr and Helm. We don't know if anyone has said anything about the Wall.

I don't understand the continued assumption that absence of evidence is evidence of absence -- especially with the gods, who get very little on-screen time.

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HighOne
Learned Scribe

172 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  16:52:36  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

I think they're going to avoid the question, because every possible answer is controversial. It's obvious that some people find the Wall offensive, and the setting creators can't go on record about how the good-aligned gods feel about it without violating some people's conception of good. And once you do that, you lose those people as customers, because a setting loses its verisimilitude when its supposedly all-powerful, benevolent gods are revealed to be evil morons.

The only way the setting creators can avoid the problem is by continuing to ignore it, or by outright destroying or retconning the Wall. Personally, my money is on "ignore," because that seems to be par for the course these days.


There is a degree of wiggle room as to how the gods feel on particular subjects, but they and their followers have been fairly well-defined and their Alignments are evident; the idea that these entities wouldn't have designs for or against this Wall of the Faithless - a massive supernatural ontological construct - is absurd. Whether they are forbidden to act by some afterlife bureaucracy or not, there can still be opinions formed on the matter.
Sure, and what if the official stance is, "Faithlessness is evil, therefore all the good-aligned gods support the Wall of the Faithless?" You know that's not going to sit well with some people, right? Same with, "The good-aligned gods don't like the wall, but they live with it," because that's not going far enough for some people (as evidenced by this thread). Whatever the official stance on the Wall is, it's going to violate some people's conception of a goodly alignment, and that will cause those people to lose interest in the setting. That's why making any definite statement on the gods' feelings about the Wall is a losing proposition for the setting designers.
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Azar
Senior Scribe

764 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  21:02:31  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

I think they're going to avoid the question, because every possible answer is controversial. It's obvious that some people find the Wall offensive, and the setting creators can't go on record about how the good-aligned gods feel about it without violating some people's conception of good. And once you do that, you lose those people as customers, because a setting loses its verisimilitude when its supposedly all-powerful, benevolent gods are revealed to be evil morons.

The only way the setting creators can avoid the problem is by continuing to ignore it, or by outright destroying or retconning the Wall. Personally, my money is on "ignore," because that seems to be par for the course these days.


There is a degree of wiggle room as to how the gods feel on particular subjects, but they and their followers have been fairly well-defined and their Alignments are evident; the idea that these entities wouldn't have designs for or against this Wall of the Faithless - a massive supernatural ontological construct - is absurd. Whether they are forbidden to act by some afterlife bureaucracy or not, there can still be opinions formed on the matter.
Sure, and what if the official stance is, "Faithlessness is evil, therefore all the good-aligned gods support the Wall of the Faithless?" You know that's not going to sit well with some people, right? Same with, "The good-aligned gods don't like the wall, but they live with it," because that's not going far enough for some people (as evidenced by this thread). Whatever the official stance on the Wall is, it's going to violate some people's conception of a goodly alignment, and that will cause those people to lose interest in the setting. That's why making any definite statement on the gods' feelings about the Wall is a losing proposition for the setting designers.



Quite frankly, I have no interest in people that are incapable of separating reality from fiction.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11169 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  22:56:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I just fail to understand why no god said anything when Tyr killed Helm when he felt Helm was stealing his girl, but all the godly bureaucracy will put the scream in the heavens (literally) if some god goes to Myrkul or Kelemvor to say a thing or two about the Wall...



Wow, Leira really is powerful. I thought people would have seen through that lie about Tyr and Helm.... I mean "gods fighting over a girl"... when I first saw it, I was like "man, the good gods really are so unimaginative... not like the evil gods who come up with more believable BS for people to try and swallow"... but people still think its true... I wonder what Tyr and Helm owe her for her aid in that?


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 14 Jan 2022 23:00:19
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Azar
Senior Scribe

764 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2022 :  00:47:07  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are times when the Faerunian gods are truly incomprehensible and there are times when they resemble the distant Grecian deities in temperament.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35998 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2022 :  05:16:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I just fail to understand why no god said anything when Tyr killed Helm when he felt Helm was stealing his girl, but all the godly bureaucracy will put the scream in the heavens (literally) if some god goes to Myrkul or Kelemvor to say a thing or two about the Wall...



Wow, Leira really is powerful. I thought people would have seen through that lie about Tyr and Helm.... I mean "gods fighting over a girl"... when I first saw it, I was like "man, the good gods really are so unimaginative... not like the evil gods who come up with more believable BS for people to try and swallow"... but people still think its true... I wonder what Tyr and Helm owe her for her aid in that?





I don't know what bothers me more about that storyline: just how weak it was, or the fact that someone thought it up and was obviously able to convince someone else that it was worth including.

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