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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Sep 2020 : 23:29:04
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Dark Sun wasn't the only setting with psionics, true -- but it was the only setting built around psionics, where it was properly integrated instead of being crudely bolted on after the fact. Psionics in other settings are generally bolted on and don't get much more than a token nod.
I love psionics, myself, but earlier editions consistently dropped the ball on making them feel like an equal part of the game. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Sep 2020 23:34:25 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 00:04:39
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
https://youtu.be/ejcQN-Kw7y0
A video argueing that WotC hates the SCAG.
Meh, this Only applies to Adventure League play, which I really can't stand. It's based on the whole PHB +1 concept, that you can only choose the PHB and one other player supplement. So if a spell is in -say- Xanathar's Guide and you've chosen PHB and SCAG well then you're SOL. If you want to play as an Aasimar from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, well that's it.
Fortunately my group just does it's thing and we can be more open with the system.
Sidebar: haven't watched that video yet, but on what Diffan just said... what moron in their company (and yes, I will go so far as to use that term in this instance and truly MEAN it) decides to tell their PAYING clientele that they can only pick a SINGLE alternate source of rules for use in their game system in which they're pushing the purchase of multiple rule books. While I could see coming up with some rulings, like maybe "you can't use X and Y book together because they're decidedly different campaign settings", beyond that it gets way too controlling. Guess that's part of why I never got into that kind of play (well, that and I've never played in a game store. I've always played from mine or someone else's house, or a few one-off convention games I ran under 1e or 2e rulesets).
I agree, it's stupid and gives a disincentive to buy more books. And it's clearly causing major issues in AL. 4e's Living Forgotten Realms tried something like that and by the end they'd dropped it, because it causes head aches as more books ate published. 5e made it worse by publishing subclasses and races/subraces in seperate books for most part. This creates the problem that none PHB races, subraces, and classes get screwed. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 00:07:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dark Sun wasn't the only setting with psionics, true -- but it was the only setting built around psionics, where it was properly integrated instead of being crudely bolted on after the fact. Psionics in other settings are generally bolted on and don't get much more than a token nod.
I love psionics, myself, but earlier editions consistently dropped the ball on making them feel like an equal part of the game.
I don't think Psionics was bolted onto Eberron, its an important part of the setting.
It's also not bolted on for FR, but its also not as central outide the underdark or Jhaamdath's sphere of influence. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 01:01:05
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Something I read long ago, I believe was on usenet that claimed at some point in time TSR demanded that all realms include elements of other realms. That Forgotten Realms needed to add spelljammer and psionics to allow visits from those worlds. It was claimed that the spelljammer was placed in Evermeet so that it existed in the Realms. However very hard to get access to. This would have been under second edition of course.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 01:50:14
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| Part of the point of Spelljammer was to connect the settings. It was an explicit objective openly stated by the designers. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 01:54:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dark Sun wasn't the only setting with psionics, true -- but it was the only setting built around psionics, where it was properly integrated instead of being crudely bolted on after the fact. Psionics in other settings are generally bolted on and don't get much more than a token nod.
I love psionics, myself, but earlier editions consistently dropped the ball on making them feel like an equal part of the game.
I don't think Psionics was bolted onto Eberron, its an important part of the setting.
It's also not bolted on for FR, but its also not as central outide the underdark or Jhaamdath's sphere of influence.
I don't know enough about Eberron to agree or disagree on that one.
But since the Realms was adapted for D&D, and D&D was built around the 4-class model, then yes, psionics was bolted on. Psionics was always an afterthought, until Dark Sun. I know that 1E had psionics, but even there, it was just an additional ability that some characters had -- the characters themselves still fit somewhere into that tank/sneak/magic person/healer model. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 02:51:16
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Weren't psionics originally a nod to characters like the Mule (from Asimov's Foundation series), that were quite prolific back then?
But, I agree with Wooly. Besides Dark Sun, the only other setting where psionics are an integral part of its feel and tone is 4e's Nentir Vale. For the other settings, psionics are just an addition, not something that, if you remove it, the setting will lost a fundamental part of it. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 03:33:29
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Psionics were originally an "optional" system appended to the 1E rules. Eagerly embraced by all players (that I've met) because it offered a chance to play with more powers.
Not really appropriate for classic Tolkien-inspired fantasy fiction. More the realm of sci-fi. Because (contrary to what D&D often explains) it is basically just magic with a different (and cooler-sounding) name.
But some of the prominent fantasy fiction of the era (like Kurtz's Deryni novels, Lieber's Lanhkmar/Nehwon novels, Moorcock's Eternal Champion novels, and tons of Cthulhu Mythos stuff) did include psionic themes. Which Gygax translated straight into his AD&D 1E rulebooks.
2E initially attempted to abolish psionics. Stating outright that it's basically just magic with a different name, more the realm of sci-fi.
A few years later it introduced PHBR5: Complete Psionics Handbook and revised a bunch of monster entries. Then built psionics into Darksun. Then shoehorned psionics into Spelljammer, Planescape, etc. Psionics were standard fare by the time "2.5E" rolled around.
3E initially attempted to abolish psionics again. And didn't take long to bring psionics back into D&D again.
3.5E initially tried to ignore psionics, just sort of pretended it never existed and handwaved it off. At the same time defining psionics quite comprehensively in the d20/SRD ... so psionics were quickly reintroduced yet again, and so seamlessly that it almost seemed as if the 3.5E rules were originally designed to include them all along ...
4E basically included psionics as "a different kind of magic", basically just another keyword for powers and templates. It actually adapted psionics into the game much better than any edition before.
I'm not sure if Asimov's Foundation novels were an inspiration. But the line between fantasy and sci-fi often overlaps, as do the interests of their readers. Gygax was pretty nerdy, he certainly could have been exposed to sci-fi concepts. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Sep 2020 03:41:22 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 03:40:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dark Sun wasn't the only setting with psionics, true -- but it was the only setting built around psionics, where it was properly integrated instead of being crudely bolted on after the fact. Psionics in other settings are generally bolted on and don't get much more than a token nod.
I love psionics, myself, but earlier editions consistently dropped the ball on making them feel like an equal part of the game.
I don't think Psionics was bolted onto Eberron, its an important part of the setting.
It's also not bolted on for FR, but its also not as central outide the underdark or Jhaamdath's sphere of influence.
Keith Baker put almost all of the psionic content on a far-off continent so that tables who dislike them can ignore them. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 13:11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dark Sun wasn't the only setting with psionics, true -- but it was the only setting built around psionics, where it was properly integrated instead of being crudely bolted on after the fact. Psionics in other settings are generally bolted on and don't get much more than a token nod.
I love psionics, myself, but earlier editions consistently dropped the ball on making them feel like an equal part of the game.
I don't think Psionics was bolted onto Eberron, its an important part of the setting.
It's also not bolted on for FR, but its also not as central outide the underdark or Jhaamdath's sphere of influence.
I don't know enough about Eberron to agree or disagree on that one.
But since the Realms was adapted for D&D, and D&D was built around the 4-class model, then yes, psionics was bolted on. Psionics was always an afterthought, until Dark Sun. I know that 1E had psionics, but even there, it was just an additional ability that some characters had -- the characters themselves still fit somewhere into that tank/sneak/magic person/healer model.
The psionics on Eberron were more on another continent, a continent in which the people were sharing their bodies with extraplanar entities.
Basically, and I'm stretching my mind back decades, but my general feel for Eberron was like it was 3 campaign worlds mashed together. There was the technomagical place that was a classic campaign, but post apocalyptic war had occurred. There was the "psionic continent" and there was "that jungle continent down south that's still savage". I think there was a 4th area that was "here be dragons". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 13:30:12
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| On Dark Sun and psionics, honestly the gist was that everyone had a "wild talent", and yet noone was portraying the mental discipline that a true psionic displays. Essentially, one might say that Dark Sun's people were simply spellscarred or had dragonmarks. Not to say that there weren't honest delves into psionics there as well, but just how much it was, etc... might not look like much more than a lot of other worlds if you peel the skin back beyond the marketing (admittedly, I'm not the strongest on Dark Sun lore as I never played the world and have only perused the books). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 14:14:32
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On Dark Sun and psionics, honestly the gist was that everyone had a "wild talent", and yet noone was portraying the mental discipline that a true psionic displays. Essentially, one might say that Dark Sun's people were simply spellscarred or had dragonmarks. Not to say that there weren't honest delves into psionics there as well, but just how much it was, etc... might not look like much more than a lot of other worlds if you peel the skin back beyond the marketing (admittedly, I'm not the strongest on Dark Sun lore as I never played the world and have only perused the books).
I read a few of the novels. Psionics was in heavy use. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 22:30:41
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On Dark Sun and psionics, honestly the gist was that everyone had a "wild talent", and yet noone was portraying the mental discipline that a true psionic displays. Essentially, one might say that Dark Sun's people were simply spellscarred or had dragonmarks. Not to say that there weren't honest delves into psionics there as well, but just how much it was, etc... might not look like much more than a lot of other worlds if you peel the skin back beyond the marketing (admittedly, I'm not the strongest on Dark Sun lore as I never played the world and have only perused the books).
Every city-state has a psionic academy. One of the main novel characters was a psion. There were two psionic Themes in 4e. The thri-kreen have a whole unique approach to psionics. Best not to speak definitely about a setting you admit you haven’t read! |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 00:13:23
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On Dark Sun and psionics, honestly the gist was that everyone had a "wild talent", and yet noone was portraying the mental discipline that a true psionic displays. Essentially, one might say that Dark Sun's people were simply spellscarred or had dragonmarks. Not to say that there weren't honest delves into psionics there as well, but just how much it was, etc... might not look like much more than a lot of other worlds if you peel the skin back beyond the marketing (admittedly, I'm not the strongest on Dark Sun lore as I never played the world and have only perused the books).
Every city-state has a psionic academy. One of the main novel characters was a psion. There were two psionic Themes in 4e. The thri-kreen have a whole unique approach to psionics. Best not to speak definitely about a setting you admit you haven’t read!
Just wondering, is your experience from 4th edition or were you around for the original 2e? I ask because when I said that my only reference was 2e (I actually forgot that they did anything in 4e, and I can see where in that edition they probably would have had a better focus on the difference). As we see in everything, perspective is everything. The big marketing push for dark sun was that everyone had a wild talent, but essentially that just meant everyone got a special power that used a point based system. Also, to add, I wasn't speaking definitely, which is why I spoke the way I did (i.e. might be different). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 00:19:34
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On Dark Sun and psionics, honestly the gist was that everyone had a "wild talent", and yet noone was portraying the mental discipline that a true psionic displays. Essentially, one might say that Dark Sun's people were simply spellscarred or had dragonmarks. Not to say that there weren't honest delves into psionics there as well, but just how much it was, etc... might not look like much more than a lot of other worlds if you peel the skin back beyond the marketing (admittedly, I'm not the strongest on Dark Sun lore as I never played the world and have only perused the books).
Every city-state has a psionic academy. One of the main novel characters was a psion. There were two psionic Themes in 4e. The thri-kreen have a whole unique approach to psionics. Best not to speak definitely about a setting you admit you haven’t read!
Just wondering, is your experience from 4th edition or were you around for the original 2e? I ask because when I said that my only reference was 2e (I actually forgot that they did anything in 4e, and I can see where in that edition they probably would have had a better focus on the difference). As we see in everything, perspective is everything. The big marketing push for dark sun was that everyone had a wild talent, but essentially that just meant everyone got a special power that used a point based system. Also, to add, I wasn't speaking definitely, which is why I spoke the way I did (i.e. might be different).
2e Dark Sun was before my time, but I’ve gone back to the books a fair bit; it had a beefy tome called The Will And The Way all about psionic practices of the setting, a huge number of the monsters were psionic, and there were a ton of racial psionic options.
The only major differences between the 2e and the 4e version were a rollback of some of the metaplot, a pretty slight retcon to a few obscure races, and the addition of eladrin, tiefling, and genasi as very rare PC options. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 02:07:37
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On Dark Sun and psionics, honestly the gist was that everyone had a "wild talent", and yet noone was portraying the mental discipline that a true psionic displays. Essentially, one might say that Dark Sun's people were simply spellscarred or had dragonmarks. Not to say that there weren't honest delves into psionics there as well, but just how much it was, etc... might not look like much more than a lot of other worlds if you peel the skin back beyond the marketing (admittedly, I'm not the strongest on Dark Sun lore as I never played the world and have only perused the books).
Every city-state has a psionic academy. One of the main novel characters was a psion. There were two psionic Themes in 4e. The thri-kreen have a whole unique approach to psionics. Best not to speak definitely about a setting you admit you haven’t read!
Just wondering, is your experience from 4th edition or were you around for the original 2e? I ask because when I said that my only reference was 2e (I actually forgot that they did anything in 4e, and I can see where in that edition they probably would have had a better focus on the difference). As we see in everything, perspective is everything. The big marketing push for dark sun was that everyone had a wild talent, but essentially that just meant everyone got a special power that used a point based system. Also, to add, I wasn't speaking definitely, which is why I spoke the way I did (i.e. might be different).
2e Dark Sun was before my time, but I’ve gone back to the books a fair bit; it had a beefy tome called The Will And The Way all about psionic practices of the setting, a huge number of the monsters were psionic, and there were a ton of racial psionic options.
The only major differences between the 2e and the 4e version were a rollback of some of the metaplot, a pretty slight retcon to a few obscure races, and the addition of eladrin, tiefling, and genasi as very rare PC options.
Yep, I remember the will and the way, it kind of broke psionics (not that magic wasn't broken as well in 2e). That's the way of all things though, they need to break a system to find the issues. They had a lot of psionic creatures too, but they weren't especially psionic, if you get what I mean. They were still learning psionics, and it felt less "psionic" initially. They basically skinned magic a different way initially and it was kind of after the will and the way that we kind of started seeing more than just "its a different power source, its internal" being the differentiating thing about psionics. Don't get me wrong, I know that some authors were exploring the mind's eye side of things, but a lot of the initial dark sun stuff was more about the defiler and preserver conflict. I do know that the thri-kreen exploration was the one thing though that they did explore that was especially about mind sciences. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 05:32:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Again, psionics was a major thing in the Dark Sun novels I read.
One of the main characters of the Prism Pentad, Dark Sun's core metaplot novels, is a noble who mastered psionics at one of the psionic academies I keep talking about, and another of the main characters has some lesser skill with it. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2020 : 21:17:22
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Master Rupert,
Indeed. I actually did, for the very brief time I played Dark Sun back in the late 1990's, enjoy the psionics of that setting. What really made me dislike Dark Sun more than anything was the realization that everything was in a very small, contrived area, for not particularly good reasons.
Meh, we'll see what comes of this if they revamp it.
What I am really looking for is if they decide to go hogwild on lore for Planescape, or Dark Sun. If they do, it would be a pretty obvious thing they've been skipping lore in the Realms for other reasons.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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WotC is working on 3 classic D&D Settings
