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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 03:57:53
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Has there ever been any official explanation as to why/how (I guess the "how" doesn't matter much since he is a god, but...) Torm shifts to a lion-headed humanoid? I understand the symbolism behind the transformation: lions are brave. However, if there is some lore that describes the specific reason he occasionally adopts that bestial anatomy, I'd love to hear it. Maybe he and Nobanion teamed up against a great evil and part of his divine ally rubbed off on him?
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 05:53:58
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Seeker Azar,
My take on this is predicated on a few things, so I'll lay out those assumptions, as there is not a lot to go off of I feel:
- Torm does not have all that much written about him in great detail apart from the ToT
- It's unknown if Torm always had/utilized the Lion
It's known that before the Procession of Justice, Torm was involved with Tyr. To what degree, it is not known.
My belief is that if Torm did use the Lion as his lion-headed humanoid avatar before the ToT, it's because he recognized lions are powerful, and not timid. It is said that Torm hails from Chalsembyr, which was in the Border Kingdoms. That region, abutting the Shaar, is certainly known for having lions. When he was ruler of Chalsembyr, he may have recognized the inherent traits of the lion, and decided to utilize it as a symbol.
If Torm didn't use the Lion as his lion-headed humanoid avatar before the ToT (only starting to use it during the ToT), then I think his then use of the Lion would have been predicated on an easy to understand symbol for ferocity, strength, and fearlessness. All traits he showed in his battle with Bane at that time. This would lend credence to the establishment of the Order of the Golden Lion for example.
Best regards,
[EDIT]Apologies for the weird bold I had in there before. Ehhh.... |
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
Edited by - cpthero2 on 21 Sep 2020 23:07:43 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 15:41:43
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As others have said, I don't believe there's been an "official" reason assigned. However, perhaps its worth taking a stab at coming up with an UNofficial reason that's also fun for us? So, with that idea in mind, let's imagine for a moment. It would be very easy to say that since he's from the areas bordering the Shaar that he's really a wemic or even a catfolk, but honestly .... I don't like that idea. It doesn't fit his primary persona that he presents of a human. Also, as some have noted, it could just be because the area he's from honored lions as fierce creatures found in the Shaar.
But what if its something different? In dragon #40 and in Zakhara's Monstrous Compendium there are references to a werelion. Dragon #40 doesn't specify the forms, but the Zakhara monstrous compendium removes their hybrid form (i.e. effectively, they're nothing more than humans that turn into lions, but they're noted as "lyncanthropes", and therefore in theory they can pass on the curse). So, what if there's some REASON that the ones in Zakhara lack a hybrid form? Maybe a curse on them/that family line or within realmspace? I mean, a GOD could curse some werelions down in Zakhara with the inability to take on their hybrid form (arguably their most powerful form), could he not? Especially if, for instance, they had sent him away (picturing the lion king story to a degree) when he came of age. Maybe his mother fled with him to raise him in a non-evil environment at a relatively young age? Maybe even there are (or WERE, because we're talking over a thousand years ago) werelions in the Shaar.
Story wise, just as a further option, similar to Bane, Bhaal, etc... Torm may have needed to somehow get a "divine spark" in order to ascend to godhood. We also have a former cat goddess down there with little information that I've been planning on having return. Her name is Kiga the Predator, and she was a goddess of wereleopards and werepanthers. He may have killed an avatar of hers down in Zakhara or stolen/destroyed some powerful artifact of hers or done something else that effectively shut down her worship in Zakhara (personally, I still have her being worshipped in Katashaka). Its not a huge requirement, but again, it can be a way to tie some connections in the world.
Also, if we go with this story idea, perhaps there WERE werelions in the Shaar, but the new clergy of Torm were basically tasked with hunting them down over a thousand years ago. Maybe the werelions fled after a few generations towards Zakhara (after the god Torm cursed them to remove their hybrid form....).
Furthermore, if we did go with this idea, perhaps even some of his clergy were also werelions (his pride brothers or even real brothers), and perhaps down the road one of THEIR ancestors ascended to become Nobanion (perhaps even with the aid of Torm). Since Torm was bound to the Prime Material even up to the Time of Troubles, he might have even have been the father of Nobanion upon one of the grandchildren of one of his brothers/sisters or just some other werelion (and even if not true, this might be a heresy within the church of either Torm or Nobanion or both). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 21 Sep 2020 15:50:04 |
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Thojan Ralwens
Acolyte
Belgium
30 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 22:54:39
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I'm pretty sure it's written in the novel "Tantras". Here is what I recall:
– Torm's Avatar, in Tantras, meet Adon (not anymore) of Sunie. To convince him he's the avatar, and not another priest, he animates a lion statue that is close by.
– That statue came from the former local temple of Waukyne, now a butcher's shop (at that time, Torm doesn't know about the persecution of the other faiths). The lion symbolism is hers (a maiden with a pair of lions at her feet).
– Right before the battle with giant-obsidian-Bane, Torm gathers his faithful, and his avatar's body is first to sacrifice his soul, which meld with the nearby animated lion. Torm then grows with each absorbed soul, but keeps the lion head inherited from the animated statue. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 23:24:17
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Seeker Ralwens,
Great points: thank you!
Though, I wonder about one point you made, in a philosophical manner.
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...(at that time, Torm doesn't know about the persecution of the other faiths)...
Did he know and just ignore it because he was full of hubris? I feel so. I really feel he did know what was going on, and though part of him felt the ends justified the means (utilitarianism at its best), he knew deep down inside he was wrong. I feel that is why he was so very repentant in the end, and why Ao brought him back. There is zero evidence to support I want to say. That is my belief that a god knew better. Especially one of duty and justice.
Thoughts?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Thojan Ralwens
Acolyte
Belgium
30 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2020 : 08:06:21
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I'm a fervent (post-ToT) Tormtar, and I'm reading all I can about it, but it might get magnified and twisted in my head.
However, Torm (in the Avatars Series and D&D 3 publications at least, and to some extend in previous edition) is depicted many times as the "abnormal god", humble and from mortal origins, never having forgotten his roots. He communicates alot with his faithfull, walks the realms in avatar form, quite "down to earth/Toril". It's specifically written that he never succumbed to the common "hubris" of the gods. He asks for Duty and Loyalty (which btw, I would see more fit from Helm), and is outraged at the deception of his high clergy during the Times of Troubles, when he got convinced by his high priest(s) that he was needed all the time in the temple, for religious, diplomatic and important stuff. After he managed to walk the city and see the persecution (having switched his consciousness to differents avatars for a time), the swift punition of the heretics was interrupted by the arrival of Bane & co. Hence the strict Penance of Duty asked to his clergy after the Time of Troubles.
The "raised because of true to own credo" was a lame move, IMO. Even if it's true Torm is maybe the one god to sacrifice, not trying to promote himself ou increase his power.
Of course if anyone thinks all that attitude was a facade, well… |
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Mrestos Khorvaen
Acolyte
Spain
48 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2020 : 13:50:46
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| I think an aspect of Torm is contention of your own emotions and not letting rage (even just rage) control you. Maybe his leonine aspects means losing control. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2020 : 04:34:41
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Thank you, cpthero2 and Thojan Ralwens for chipping in to help answer my question. Also, thank you, sleyvas, for that bit of theorizing/myth-crafting.
I could not locate a canonical rendition of Torm in his favored alternative form. Still, here is a picture of a lion headed knight. If only he were wielding a greatsword  ...
https://tinyurl.com/y467dths
quote:
Originally posted by Mrestos Khorvaen
I think an aspect of Torm is contention of your own emotions and not letting rage (even just rage) control you. Maybe his leonine aspects means losing control.
In a purely symbolic sense? As far as I can tell, Torm's avatar (in 2e AD&D, to be specific) gains the ability to roar out a Greater Shout while putting on his best "King of the Savannah" face, but he isn't negatively impacted in any way. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Mrestos Khorvaen
Acolyte
Spain
48 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2020 : 08:16:53
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| Well, maybe it means a justice-seeking fury. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2020 : 05:49:13
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Seeker Ralwens,
quote:
It's specifically written that he never succumbed to the common "hubris" of the gods. He asks for Duty and Loyalty (which btw, I would see more fit from Helm), and is outraged at the deception of his high clergy during the Times of Troubles, when he got convinced by his high priest(s) that he was needed all the time in the temple, for religious, diplomatic and important stuff.
While I can certainly appreciate your perspective here, and do not in any way believe you are contriving an interpretation, I have a hard time believing the outlook in light of how we know battles can play out in the Realms. I will give you an example from the Battle of Brokenheads, in 1197 DR. Ambrouszas of Alaghôn was a battle sage involved in the battle as Thayan forces were attacking Aglarond. He produced his account in 1202 DR. What's an important take away from the battle sages account is this:
quote:
It has become fashionable in Thay to claim this particular engagement as a great victory wherein valiant and outnumbered Thayan forces seized and “cleansed” much former Aglarondan territory (slaying King Philaspur of Aglarond in the bargain) through brilliance of leadership and strength of swordarm. Such accounts are sheer piffle. As one who fought at Brokenheads, though of tender years at the time, I know better. Read herein the truth of that engagement. The weather was fair and had been dry for months, so the marshes were not as great an obstacle as usual. Sucking bogs, horrible insects, and clawing mud still abounded, but it was easy enough to find ways around such perils. (GHotR: pg. 124)
I conjure that quote as it really goes right to the center of the argument of legitimacy. It sounds impressive when those Thayan wizards who survived came back screaming victory, until we all know it was crap, haha.
However, it is a bit beyond the pale I think to believe that a deity of Torm's stature, command and control, and powers, was duped by his high priests to the degree that it is believed. Torm being the very deity of duty knew what his duty was, and even if confronted with liabetes from his clergy, should have been able to compare and contrast and realize what the "right" answer was at the time. I firmly believe he screwed up and that's why those debts came about. However, he did rectify it, and Ao recognized that, giving him his place back.
By the way, I want to clarify: my argument is only aimed at the ideas, nothing person, just wanted to say that.
Also, I am a huge proponent of Torm as a deity for several of my paladins! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Thojan Ralwens
Acolyte
Belgium
30 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2020 : 09:29:45
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It is sure odd to have a god described —in the same novel—, being able to manifest an eternal day above Tantras, and at the same time, being oblivious to local religous persecutions.
I'll invoke the diminished nature of the avatar and the author's inconsistency. :D |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2020 : 22:51:41
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Seeker Ralwens,
Great point I certainly did not think of! Nicely done good sir! I will remember that!
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Torm the Lionhead
