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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Sep 2020 : 16:58:35
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
It would seem that we have drifted quite a bit away from the supposed topic. I can see that is my fault and I would like to apologize to everyone and especially to Seethyr. To get us back on track, I did some searches of the stuff I have and I didn't find anything mentioning birth magic. It would seem to be something that RAS came up with or he got it from confidential material from Ed.
It's not the first time RAS has used some otherwise undescribed bit of magic: look at Bruenor forging Aegis-Fang.
I think that was prolly something from Ed, too, *especially* since it was written in an era when dwarves couldn't use arcane magic and yet the lore described a lot of magical arms and armor as coming from dwarven forges.
I personally like the idea of rituals like that: a craftsman making a unique magical weapon with a ritual that is a gift from their gods, or harnessing the energies of a rare event* to enact some magical ritual.
*Yes, I know, birth isn't exactly a rare thing, in general -- but it is rare, among individuals, for most humanish races in fantasy settings. Sure, a large city may see births every day -- but for the individual mothers, it's usually not happening more than three times in their lifetime, and each time, it takes literally months to get there and then a hell of a lot of work to actually give birth. Even drow, living for centuries and known to be more fecund than other elven races, still don't have large numbers of children. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2020 : 18:41:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I hope if they ever do something for epic level play, it is taken into consideration as a method for non epic level characters to enact a one time epic level feat of magic.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not the first time RAS has used some otherwise undescribed bit of magic: look at Bruenor forging Aegis-Fang.
Exactly, as a one-off thing it seems to be a feat similar to the dwarven magical masterpiece crafting.
I'm trying to think of other canon (or pseudo/semi-canon) references to births and magic but the only thing that comes up is an anecdote from Ed's own campaign (I think it's somewhere in these Halls) I remember vaguely: something about one of the players sacrificing herself to close a portal or kill a powerful devil/demon and being almost instantly "reborn/reincarnated" in an infant being birthed that same night by someone they knew in one of the Dales.
Other than that there is the birth of Qilue (but that was rather directly operated by deities).
Speaking of the Seven Sisters, I sometimes wonder if each of them doesn't embody/specialise in some specific form of spellcasting: Qilue being the "divine" one, Laeral the archetypical wizard (research and practice), the Symbul the archetypical sorcerer (channeling "raw" power), Sylune I imagine like the proverbial witch (so alchemy, potions and rituals), Storm the epitome of bardic/musical magic (for humans anyway), Dove the eldritch knight (whose magic is basically used to make her a better fighter) and Alustriel ... well she has always been the one most connected to the "gentle" emotions, Lady of Love, very compassionate, extremely empathic ... also she has a ton of kids ... maybe there is more to them (and their births)? |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2020 : 07:17:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
... *Yes, I know, birth isn't exactly a rare thing, in general -- but it is rare, among individuals, for most humanish races in fantasy settings. Sure, a large city may see births every day -- but for the individual mothers, it's usually not happening more than three times in their lifetime, and each time, it takes literally months to get there and then a hell of a lot of work to actually give birth. Even drow, living for centuries and known to be more fecund than other elven races, still don't have large numbers of children.
Humans are so randy that birth for a mated pair is merely an infrequent event, look at real world history for examples of fecundity before the age of electronic entertainment & wide-spread, dirt-cheap contraception such as the relatively modern 18th & 19th century women averaging 9 babies each and 7 babies each respectively. After the sun goes down the great sweep of the land is plunged into darkness with the primary illumination of every household except for a minuscule fraction of the affluent & empowered is the very dangerous fire of candles or log piles. What do you think happens in a household of a mated pair between the long hours of sunset & sunrise with an average time in the dark of 12 hours? Only young children & the sick/badly injured can regularly sleep that much in a straight go. Someone is gonna be up before it is reasonably time to get up and prod one's partner with the words "so, ya wanna?"
The aggregate of orcs & goblinkind are also prolific, they have access to their own magic traditions, and they would have just the callous disposition necessary to seek out such power boosts regardless of the child's well being, just like it was written in Salvatore's decades-old novel where the baby Drizzt was intended to be sacrificed after being born. And would this be any different for egg-laying sapients whom may more regularly plan this type of magic on their cycle?
If such a boost were possible outside of a specific religious ritual that is favored by the malicious deity Llolth, then it would be wide-spread amongst various peoples from grasping human mages greedy for more power to Luthic's faithful orc women striving for better standing in the patriarchal tribes. Such a thing would make kobold sorcerers even more dangerous or alter the internal hierarchies of scaly-kind.
*sigh* I am not going to complete my thoughts on this because there are just too many branching possibilities for the past & present of the FR to be changed by this if it were anything more than a one-off by a novelist that can only be performed by a wizened Matron in the service of Llolth supported by a coterie of ritualists. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2020 : 10:55:00
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| Even 9 times, spread out over 20 or 30 years, isn't exactly a common occurrence. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2020 : 09:35:10
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| But, wouldn't such an occurrence become more common for a spellcaster capable of harnessing the power boost for her own benefit? As we all know, there are spellcasters that kill themselves to gain the increased power of lichdom for the price of undeath & the end of their soul - birth casting seems to be less drastic even if it is a temporary & fleeting empowerment. I even think there would be experimentation with magically transplanted, artificially accelerated, and psuedo-pregnancies to accelerate the frequency of the events. However, this is still only if such a boost were possible outside of a specific religious ritual that is favored by the malicious deity Llolth. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2020 : 14:34:43
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| just wondering, is the spellcaster also the one giving birth? I'm assuming so in my next statement. If so, I'm not seeing many who can concentrate on spellcasting AND give birth to harness this special resource. I would also expect that any magical ability used to reduce the pain would also thereby reduce the ability to harness the resource (i.e. I picture the pain as a critical component). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2020 : 14:59:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Speaking of the Seven Sisters, I sometimes wonder if each of them doesn't embody/specialise in some specific form of spellcasting: Qilue being the "divine" one, Laeral the archetypical wizard (research and practice), the Symbul the archetypical sorcerer (channeling "raw" power), Sylune I imagine like the proverbial witch (so alchemy, potions and rituals), Storm the epitome of bardic/musical magic (for humans anyway), Dove the eldritch knight (whose magic is basically used to make her a better fighter) and Alustriel ... well she has always been the one most connected to the "gentle" emotions, Lady of Love, very compassionate, extremely empathic ... also she has a ton of kids ... maybe there is more to them (and their births)?
Dove is more of a ranger. Granted, I picture her as a ranger/wizard. Of course, maybe you were referring to the 3.5e version of eldritch knight now that I think about it.
On this particular idea, I'd love to "redefine" the seven sisters using 3.5e classes and prestige classes. For instance, the Simbul as a wizard/sorcerer with ultimate magus. Perhaps we should start a thread for such if anyone else is actually interested. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2020 : 17:29:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Dove is more of a ranger. Granted, I picture her as a ranger/wizard.
Well she had a full plate in The Seven Sisters but yeah, I was generally referring to her inclination more for melee combat without class specifics. Happy to move this discussion elsewhere. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2020 : 17:57:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Dove is more of a ranger. Granted, I picture her as a ranger/wizard.
Well she had a full plate in The Seven Sisters but yeah, I was generally referring to her inclination more for melee combat without class specifics. Happy to move this discussion elsewhere.
Good point. Case of earlier edition rules possibly affecting what we might develop using later editions. Moving it over to the other thread. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2020 : 22:04:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
just wondering, is the spellcaster also the one giving birth?.. If so, I'm not seeing many who can concentrate on spellcasting AND give birth to harness this special resource. I would also expect that any magical ability used to reduce the pain would also thereby reduce the ability to harness the resource (i.e. I picture the pain as a critical component).
Since we were going off the only known canon description of birth magic being the Matron Mother the default is the spellcaster being the birther. The description also tied the impetus of increased power to the emotional turmoil & pain experienced but redirected by the sheer will of the Matron Mother. 3.x D&D rules introduced the mechanic of Concentration and made it a key class skill for spellcasters. "You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, manifesting a power, concentrating on an active spell or power, directing a spell or power, using a spell-like or psi-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity." Most likely birth magic falls under "DC10 + half of continuous damage last dealt for Taking continuous damage during the action," which simulates being on fire, but also could handle the delivering aspect of birth magic.
While I do concur that experiencing pain and/or discomfort are immutable components of this process, I would caution that they are integral to the whole process and not something which may be extracted to provide power on their own (i.e., masochistic cutting for spell power ups). Then again, my opinion of birth magic was that it was unique to the secret religious practices of Llolth worshippers that was revealed by will of the goddess and it really should go no further than that by canon sources. Any implication that pain was useful for empowering magic would have long ago been discovered, subverted, and controlled by the deities Loviatar (goddess of agony) & Ilmater (god of suffering) for their own ends. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2020 : 01:52:06
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
just wondering, is the spellcaster also the one giving birth?.. If so, I'm not seeing many who can concentrate on spellcasting AND give birth to harness this special resource. I would also expect that any magical ability used to reduce the pain would also thereby reduce the ability to harness the resource (i.e. I picture the pain as a critical component).
Since we were going off the only known canon description of birth magic being the Matron Mother the default is the spellcaster being the birther. The description also tied the impetus of increased power to the emotional turmoil & pain experienced but redirected by the sheer will of the Matron Mother. 3.x D&D rules introduced the mechanic of Concentration and made it a key class skill for spellcasters. "You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, manifesting a power, concentrating on an active spell or power, directing a spell or power, using a spell-like or psi-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity." Most likely birth magic falls under "DC10 + half of continuous damage last dealt for Taking continuous damage during the action," which simulates being on fire, but also could handle the delivering aspect of birth magic.
While I do concur that experiencing pain and/or discomfort are immutable components of this process, I would caution that they are integral to the whole process and not something which may be extracted to provide power on their own (i.e., masochistic cutting for spell power ups). Then again, my opinion of birth magic was that it was unique to the secret religious practices of Llolth worshippers that was revealed by will of the goddess and it really should go no further than that by canon sources. Any implication that pain was useful for empowering magic would have long ago been discovered, subverted, and controlled by the deities Loviatar (goddess of agony) & Ilmater (god of suffering) for their own ends.
I'm fresh off of reading Relentless and am desperate not to spoil it, but let's just say Birth Magic was definitely in the "ritual" category and it required assistance (from other than the mother). |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2020 : 01:35:32
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
While I do concur that experiencing pain and/or discomfort are immutable components of this process, I would caution that they are integral to the whole process and not something which may be extracted to provide power on their own (i.e., masochistic cutting for spell power ups). Then again, my opinion of birth magic was that it was unique to the secret religious practices of Llolth worshippers that was revealed by will of the goddess and it really should go no further than that by canon sources. Any implication that pain was useful for empowering magic would have long ago been discovered, subverted, and controlled by the deities Loviatar (goddess of agony) & Ilmater (god of suffering) for their own ends.
-We know from Bloodwalk that the utilization of pain and blood is used by other individual magicians and groups (Gargauth). |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2020 : 08:39:52
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| "Bloodwalk" and "Relentless," huh? I sit corrected. Apparently this is a thing that is being invested into by WotC and being expanded upon. Wait, isn't that description of the protagonist in "Bloodwalk" just the prestige class of blood magus from "Complete Arcane?" "Complete Arcane" was published two years prior to "Bloodwalk" with an identical description for becoming a blood mage, but the write-up of the blood magus' powers include no component or mechanics for pain, only the blood of living creatures. Is this what you are referencing, Lord Karsus, or is there something else in that novel? |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2020 : 02:51:40
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Master Rupert,
Not to call your correctness into doubt, but where are you citing that from? I am quite interested in going and reading that myself! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 05:15:21
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| Pain is likely a component used for certain groups (such as followers of Loviator), but I haven't encountered birthing magic outside the Drizzt novels, and I'd completely forgotten about it from Homeland. Even other novels and sources (that I am aware of) that cover Lolthites don't mention birthing magic. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 06:36:08
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Great Reader CorellonsDevout,
Wow, I must admit, I don't recall it from Homeland either, and I definitely have not heard of it elsewhere. Just a bit of searching didn't dig up much on it. Definitely seems like it quickly goes down the uber creepy path in the game...
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Birth Magic
