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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 00:15:29
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I’ll be careful not to put in any spoilers for Salvatore’s recent trilogy but he introduced a concept I have literally never heard of.
Birth magic? It seems to allow a loophole to Mystra’s ban on certain levels of magic. I mean one particular use seemed to me to be on par with an 11th level spell at least.
Do we know anything more of this?
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 01:18:20
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| Interesting. He alluded to that in the very first Drizzt book when Mother Malice used the birth of Drizzt to hammer down the defenses of the family they were attacking then. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 01:51:35
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| The ban is on spells using the Weave... So a ritual or something that doesn't draw on the Weave could dodge that limitation. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 16:26:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The ban is on spells using the Weave... So a ritual or something that doesn't draw on the Weave could dodge that limitation.
That brings up a point that makes me question the intelligence of Shar, Mask, and the rest: why haven't they backed a mortal to use non-Weave magic to cast Karsus' Avatar? If they were to back and support the mortal through the process, they could end up with a new god of magic that is sympathetic to their ideas.
This has also made me wonder why none of the other gods of magic didn't assume Mystra's apparently vacant role as the god of magic after she was killed and the Spellplague started. Corellon is already a greater power so I could see him not wanting it but Baravar Cloakshadow, an intermediate power, might have been a decent option. You already have Gond acting as Nebelun so having Baravar act as Mystra seems reasonable to me. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 16:42:26
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That's a good question.
My answer is that mystryl was the weave itself and not a god at all. Being the weave meant she could speak in visions to people and grant spells and send creatures or manifestations to do her bidding but she was part of the enormous magical field that blankets most of faerun. Sages are wrong and labelled her a god because she could do all the things a god could do.
How do you steal the powers of a god through a spell. Even epic magic does not allow that. A lesser god can command magical powers far in excess of any spell, their avatars are so powerful that magic barely hurts them, and an avatar is just a tiny fraction of their power, imagine what the most powerful greater god could do, she could ignore any magic directed against her. That leads me to the conclusion that history and sages are wrong again.
Karsus' spell did not target a god at all (the archwizards were notoriously undercut and preferred to rely only on arcane magic), it targeted the weave itself and Karsus was able to target it directly did that using one of the few remaining Nether Scrolls still in his possession (the nether scrolls being a weave anchor).
He drained that scroll dry and because the nether scrolls were a weave anchor it started to drain the entire weave into his body.
That much magical power gave him the power to rival a god. Then Mystryl sacrificed herself and rebooted the weave, how did she do that, she cut off the nether scrolls from the weave, they are no longer weave anchors, they are a backup in case the weave should collapse or be destroyed.
That's my take on it, removes a lot of "why didn't another god just do xxx". Gods dont take direct actions on the material plane.
What we read in a sourcebook or a novel is not necessarily the gospel truth (or in the case of some works, even slightly true). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 17:21:28
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So you're saying that Karsus took over the Weave and it sacrificed and rebooted itself, whilst it was under his control? 
I truly, truly do not understand the contortions you put yourself through to try to deny canon and remove gods from everything -- especially your repeated assertion that gods don't take action on the Prime, when it is canon that they can and do. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Sep 2020 17:26:35 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 17:39:40
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
This has also made me wonder why none of the other gods of magic didn't assume Mystra's apparently vacant role as the god of magic after she was killed and the Spellplague started.
That's because
1)She wasn't actually dead, and the Weave was still there if stranded
2)I don't think that all portfolios are open to any god. For example, Lolth tried to grab the Weave, and Ed explained why her attempt was the result of total incompetence and destined to fail from the very beginning, to the point that El and other chosen had to sustain her own "new" Weave for her to avoid another cataclysm. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 18:04:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
That's a good question.
My answer is that mystryl was the weave itself and not a god at all. Being the weave meant she could speak in visions to people and grant spells and send creatures or manifestations to do her bidding but she was part of the enormous magical field that blankets most of faerun. Sages are wrong and labelled her a god because she could do all the things a god could do.
How do you steal the powers of a god through a spell. Even epic magic does not allow that. A lesser god can command magical powers far in excess of any spell, their avatars are so powerful that magic barely hurts them, and an avatar is just a tiny fraction of their power, imagine what the most powerful greater god could do, she could ignore any magic directed against her. That leads me to the conclusion that history and sages are wrong again.
Karsus' spell did not target a god at all (the archwizards were notoriously undercut and preferred to rely only on arcane magic), it targeted the weave itself and Karsus was able to target it directly did that using one of the few remaining Nether Scrolls still in his possession (the nether scrolls being a weave anchor).
He drained that scroll dry and because the nether scrolls were a weave anchor it started to drain the entire weave into his body.
That much magical power gave him the power to rival a god. Then Mystryl sacrificed herself and rebooted the weave, how did she do that, she cut off the nether scrolls from the weave, they are no longer weave anchors, they are a backup in case the weave should collapse or be destroyed.
That's my take on it, removes a lot of "why didn't another god just do xxx". Gods dont take direct actions on the material plane.
What we read in a sourcebook or a novel is not necessarily the gospel truth (or in the case of some works, even slightly true).
The spell requires a target. From the looks of it, you can target any god and usurp their powers for a short time. Mystryl sacrificed herself to break the spell (no target, spell collapses). That could be why no one has tried it again. Mystra would just kill herself and then come immediately back. Sure, there is a hiccup in magic but who cares? When's lunch?
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"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 18:22:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
This has also made me wonder why none of the other gods of magic didn't assume Mystra's apparently vacant role as the god of magic after she was killed and the Spellplague started.
That's because
1)She wasn't actually dead, and the Weave was still there if stranded
2)I don't think that all portfolios are open to any god. For example, Lolth tried to grab the Weave, and Ed explained why her attempt was the result of total incompetence and destined to fail from the very beginning, to the point that El and other chosen had to sustain her own "new" Weave for her to avoid another cataclysm.
That could be. She was just very badly wounded and it took 10 years for her to heal up enough to stabilize things.
As for your second point, I agree. Not every portfolio is open to every god. But, a god of magic should understand magic enough to be able to take over for Mystra. Now, there could be something from Ao that prevents one greater power from grabbing the portfolio of another greater power. That would have prevented Corellon from doing it but why couldn't Baravar grab it? He is an intermediate power so stepping up to greater status should be within his grasp. He is also a god of magic so he should have the deep understanding of magic that Lloth wouldn't have. Pantheon-wise, you already have an established crossover of Gond acting as Nebelun and you even have Tymora in both the human and halfling pantheons. Baravar, even if he only wanted to support the gnomes during this time, should have had both the skills and drive to stabilize things. But, like the gnomes themselves, the gnome gods are forgotten, too. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 18:25:50
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-Another reason why the I find the existence of magic that somehow bypasses the Weave/Shadow Weave problematic.
-Anyway, not having read the book but remembering the part in Homeland where Matron Mother Malice used the pain/ecstasy/emotion from giving birth to empower magic that was being casted, I always took it as like a "metamagic feat" to use 3e terminology. A regular spell/ritual that was boosted by the event, not a whole new type of magic or loophole, or whatever. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 18:42:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Karsu did not take over the weave, he drained it of a ton of magic, swelled his body with it and caused it to partly collapse.
I try and rewrite canon because canon does not make sense or is of dubious quality in many cases (especially where novels are concerned, and I've read a few now so I can point out with certainty that more than a few are not well thought out).
Plus canon is a mutable concept and has been rewritten many times. I'm just making a suggestion, who knows it may one day even be made into canon.
And at the very least it shows people that they dont have to slavishly adhere to what is written. They can change things and not affect the fabric of the realms, there is always more than one way to paint the same picture.
It does change the fabric of the Realms to remove integral parts of it - like the gods the creator of the setting wrote into to it.
Just because you've got a weird beef against deities doesn't mean that any reference to them doesn't make sense. In many cases, your efforts to remove them result in stories that don't make sense -- like claiming that alone among all the primal energies of the Realms, magic was not covered by a deity, and was somehow able to turn itself off and back on, anyway. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Sep 2020 18:43:19 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 18:48:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Another reason why the I find the existence of magic that somehow bypasses the Weave/Shadow Weave problematic.
-Anyway, not having read the book but remembering the part in Homeland where Matron Mother Malice used the pain/ecstasy/emotion from giving birth to empower magic that was being casted, I always took it as like a "metamagic feat" to use 3e terminology. A regular spell/ritual that was boosted by the event, not a whole new type of magic or loophole, or whatever.
Oh, I don't mind if there are ways of bypassing the Weave/Shadow Weave. Keeps people on their toes. I can also see that you want to leave enough wiggle room for writers and DMs to be able come up with something cool without having to completely disregard the rules. It is just that the limitations for ALL types of magic need to be the same. Otherwise, you get problems like this. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 19:35:39
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
This has also made me wonder why none of the other gods of magic didn't assume Mystra's apparently vacant role as the god of magic after she was killed and the Spellplague started.
That's because
1)She wasn't actually dead, and the Weave was still there if stranded
2)I don't think that all portfolios are open to any god. For example, Lolth tried to grab the Weave, and Ed explained why her attempt was the result of total incompetence and destined to fail from the very beginning, to the point that El and other chosen had to sustain her own "new" Weave for her to avoid another cataclysm.
That could be. She was just very badly wounded and it took 10 years for her to heal up enough to stabilize things.
As for your second point, I agree. Not every portfolio is open to every god. But, a god of magic should understand magic enough to be able to take over for Mystra. Now, there could be something from Ao that prevents one greater power from grabbing the portfolio of another greater power. That would have prevented Corellon from doing it but why couldn't Baravar grab it? He is an intermediate power so stepping up to greater status should be within his grasp. He is also a god of magic so he should have the deep understanding of magic that Lloth wouldn't have. Pantheon-wise, you already have an established crossover of Gond acting as Nebelun and you even have Tymora in both the human and halfling pantheons. Baravar, even if he only wanted to support the gnomes during this time, should have had both the skills and drive to stabilize things. But, like the gnomes themselves, the gnome gods are forgotten, too.
That's true, but being a deity of magic isn't the same as being Mystra. She literally is the Weave, and that can be a heavy burden, make you vulnerable, barred from taking certain actions (for example, you'd likely be forced to abandon any cause major cause you're pursuing), or yet forced to respect rules like splitting your power. Not all gods who understand those implications would be willing to accept them. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 19:44:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Not removed, just changed.
Karsus is still there and still causes the collapse of the weave
Mystryl is still there and sacrifices herself to save the weave.
The weave is still there and is rebooted. But none of them are gods.
-Agreed. Just like there have been a bunch of deities that have been reclassified as Archfey, Elemental Lords, and other things, Mystryl/Mystra being reclassified as an extremely powerful god-like entity doesn't really cause anything to fall apart. I actually like that explanation better, given the Weave's importance, power and it's/Mystra's unique status as a result. |
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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 05 Sep 2020 19:45:25 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 20:05:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
That's because
1)She wasn't actually dead, and the Weave was still there if stranded
2)I don't think that all portfolios are open to any god. For example, Lolth tried to grab the Weave, and Ed explained why her attempt was the result of total incompetence and destined to fail from the very beginning, to the point that El and other chosen had to sustain her own "new" Weave for her to avoid another cataclysm.
That could be. She was just very badly wounded and it took 10 years for her to heal up enough to stabilize things.
As for your second point, I agree. Not every portfolio is open to every god. But, a god of magic should understand magic enough to be able to take over for Mystra. Now, there could be something from Ao that prevents one greater power from grabbing the portfolio of another greater power. That would have prevented Corellon from doing it but why couldn't Baravar grab it? He is an intermediate power so stepping up to greater status should be within his grasp. He is also a god of magic so he should have the deep understanding of magic that Lloth wouldn't have. Pantheon-wise, you already have an established crossover of Gond acting as Nebelun and you even have Tymora in both the human and halfling pantheons. Baravar, even if he only wanted to support the gnomes during this time, should have had both the skills and drive to stabilize things. But, like the gnomes themselves, the gnome gods are forgotten, too.
That's true, but being a deity of magic isn't the same as being Mystra. She literally is the Weave, and that can be a heavy burden, make you vulnerable, barred from taking certain actions (for example, you'd likely be forced to abandon any cause major cause you're pursuing), or yet forced to respect rules like splitting your power. Not all gods who understand those implications would be willing to accept them.
You know, that is best point for Baravar to NOT take it. I could definitely see him choosing to not take over for Mystra since he would have to "abandon" his role as one of the protectors of gnomes. Now, I CAN see both him and Corellon doing what they can so that elven and gnomish casters have their spells function normally. Not sure what that would be but I could see them trying. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 21:29:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
This has also made me wonder why none of the other gods of magic didn't assume Mystra's apparently vacant role as the god of magic after she was killed and the Spellplague started.
That's because
1)She wasn't actually dead, and the Weave was still there if stranded
2)I don't think that all portfolios are open to any god. For example, Lolth tried to grab the Weave, and Ed explained why her attempt was the result of total incompetence and destined to fail from the very beginning, to the point that El and other chosen had to sustain her own "new" Weave for her to avoid another cataclysm.
I feel very much #2.... just because a god kills another god doesn't mean that they have the capability to handle the "portfolios" that that god held. In the case of Karsus, while he's a great mage, I think he was thrust into the middle of juggling too many balls at once when he'd never juggled them before (as a visual to simulate what I'm picturing).
I actually think that Mystra and Midnight had something special about themselves that made it easier for them to adapt. Perhaps they were the blood of Mystra in some way (kind of like the seven sisters were born with the aid of Mystra). I'm actually fond of the idea that Midnight was another Alias clone to tell the truth, and none of her prior history was true (it was all programmed memories, and even she didn't know it). I rather like the idea that several of the bodies that gods inhabited during the ToT were constructed bodies and that some had some kind of an "in" that they'd need to have such waiting for them (as in perhaps a certain god of divinations wasn't caught with his pants down, and he communicated some needs even while he was in Azuth's staff). I'm also of the mindset that the weird beholder-like demon with mouths in place of eyes named Phalse that was involved with the Alias clones was Leira (and she gave the midnight clone the truename Ariel). |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2020 : 22:05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Not removed, just changed.
Karsus is still there and still causes the collapse of the weave
Mystryl is still there and sacrifices herself to save the weave.
The weave is still there and is rebooted. But none of them are gods.
-Agreed. Just like there have been a bunch of deities that have been reclassified as Archfey, Elemental Lords, and other things, Mystryl/Mystra being reclassified as an extremely powerful god-like entity doesn't really cause anything to fall apart. I actually like that explanation better, given the Weave's importance, power and it's/Mystra's unique status as a result.
Well I'm glad someone got something useful out of my heresy.
It can go much further. What is mystryl/mystra, a sentience in the weave (there are weave ghosts already), the most powerful sentience in the weave or an amalgam of sentiences. How did they get there.
Who created the weave (once you decouple it from the god thing it has to have been created. Where any other weaves created (shadow weave?).
Was it always planet wide, did it grow, how does it grow (add more weave anchors)
How do the spells get stored in it (nether scrolls originally). How were the 10th level spells and higher cut off.
Why does the weave need to be worshipped and have a church (it doesnt but they act as guardians and they catalogue all the new spells and store them in the weave for everyone to use.
There are so many more interesting questions and answers once you change it from god did it to something else. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2020 : 04:23:46
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Actually, no, the questions aren't more interesting -- because getting rid of the god of the most powerful in the sphere begs the question of why some other deity hasn't tried to grab it. Deities have literally killed each other for more influence, and if there wasn't a deity running the show on magic, the rest of the gods would be tripping over themselves trying to grab ahold of it.
Changing it from a god to something else breaks things, but I guess that doesn't matter when you hate everything pertaining to gods and proclaim that canon is wrong. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2020 : 07:40:30
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Are there any other instances of birth magic besides Salvatore’s two?
Is the magic limitless? I mean, I don’t want to spoil the book, so I won’t say anything but what was done was pretty darn powerful. |
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Edited by - Seethyr on 06 Sep 2020 07:43:48 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2020 : 09:58:03
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To be honest, given that Mystra dies every edition or so, I'd expect powerful wizards to start abandoning Realmspace en-masse and heading for Oerth or Cerilia. It really doesn't help that Mystra's murderer is the god of plot armor.
Really, I'd expect Mystra to have a contingency plan set aside; that on the event of her death, her power would split between her servitor gods who'd serve in her place. It would add plot progression, with the Chosen having to grapple with two additional patrons who have no reason to like them much - Big V was Thayvian, and Savras remembers being stuck in a stick for the better part of several millennia.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2020 : 13:35:40
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| LoB: I believe it's canon that she does do that...it's just such an overwhelming task that nothing short of a greater deity who truly understands the workings of the Weave can keep it under control...and even she needs the help of her Chosen to accomplish the task. At least, that's how I interpret it. I also think that AO has something to do with keeping it under a modicum of control in her absence and seeing to it that the rebooted goddess has the capability of doing the job (this isn't canon, just my opinion for how a 'new' deity is able to assume the mantle...and none of the other gods are aware that AO does this because things go horribly awry when the Weave collapses and it takes time to return to normal). Let's not forget that magic has actually gotten weaker each time this has happened. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2020 : 10:21:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Why didn't any deity grab hold of the sceptre of the sorcerer kings and use it against another. Khelben gave it to fzoul so why didn't iyachtu xvim use it to banish his most hated foe.
Yes, because the Sceptre of the Sorcerer Kings has totally god-killing powers, right? And are you really sure Xvim didn't get what he wanted by letting Fzoul do his thing? Ask Wooly.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Why didn't one or more gods use the imaskari planar barrier to stop their enemies.
Yes, because the Imaskari Planar Barrier has always been handled by the gods, right? It's not like it's probably the most anti-deific thing ever made into the setting that gods kept away from it until Ao the Overgod decided to intervene.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Why didn't auril use the gatekeepers crystal on a stronghold of her enemies. Why dont all the evil gods just kill their enemies
Why would any god do that directly/in person/avatar? To start a godwar? Why didn't the US and USSR fire away with the nukes last century so we could avoid all these discussions? Does anyone know the concept of deterrent or understand the implications of having power but not using it to it's fullest extent? Like why don't school teacher just don't suspend all the kids at the first sneeze? They have got the power to do that ...
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Who read the spellplague reason; where the super team of shar and cyric did a super ultra mega backstab on mystra, and thought "wow that was awesome". Now hands up all those that read it with a twitch in their left eye and a wtf expression on their face.
Gods taking direct action on the material plane breaks everything ...
Not agreeing with what they did but that was not on the Prime so, even by your standards, that should've been fine.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
... But none of them are gods ...
Eh, yeah, so god-like beings with god-like powers and god-like schemes ... but with a different name. Gotcha. Totally different.
I agree that most of the time gods are represented in novels they break the setting but even then most of the time it's the two worst and serial offenders, Cyric and Mystra. Cyric has got plot armor and last time they tried to get rid of Mystra they blew up the setting and didn't get rid of her so I wouldn't want to bring any more editorial attention to this point.
Anyway, more on topic, I like the idea of specific individuals able to harness their feelings and emotions to amplify and boost their magic (a la "metamagic feat", as already pointed out by Lord Karsus). It gives a little bit more depth to the whole sorcerer (the class) thing of "the magic is in your blood/being" as opposed to the "you studied countless tomes and practiced hours of finger movements" the wizards do. But I'll definitely count it as still Weave-magic, just a boost to it and depending on circumstances (a ritual, the strength of the individuals involved, etc...) it can be a mighty boost.
Off topic again, I really like how everyone here thinks everyone lies in FR ("And gods most of all") except Elminster and the rest of the Mystrans through whom the Realms are spoonfed to us. Like it's not just all propaganda.
The idea that Mystra, the only deity we have on record for dying multiple times (with very bad contingencies in place) is the most powerful of the pantheon is like claiming that Krillin/Kuririn is the strongest character in Dragonball. Laughable joke. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2020 : 11:19:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
The idea that Mystra, the only deity we have on record for dying multiple times (with very bad contingencies in place) is the most powerful of the pantheon is like claiming that Krillin/Kuririn is the strongest character in Dragonball. Laughable joke.
So you're saying Ed is wrong about his setting? Because it's Ed himself that has said that. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2020 : 12:17:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
The idea that Mystra, the only deity we have on record for dying multiple times (with very bad contingencies in place) is the most powerful of the pantheon is like claiming that Krillin/Kuririn is the strongest character in Dragonball. Laughable joke.
So you're saying Ed is wrong about his setting? Because it's Ed himself that has said that.
I'm saying that applying the "unreliable narrator" lense to everything in the setting except Mystra is wrong. You can translate it into the fact that Ed is obviously not wrong (kind of by definition he can't be), it's just that his main/only source of information is unreliable because it has its own interests in representing one specific side in stories regarding Mystra.
The very questionable Netheril: Empire of Magic is supposed to be Larloch telling a story to Tam and that lich's version making it's way to us and everyone agrees it's up for debate if the information is completely accurate because of the agendas of the individuals involved. But when Elminster chants the joys of Mystra and all the things she has done for the setting and how everything that was f****d up was not her fault (Helmlands anyone? If it's not a huge PR stunt that, I don't know what is) we all accept it as gospel? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2020 : 13:43:01
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Ed himself has said, repeatedly, in non-FR material, that Mystra is the most powerful. That's not unreliable narrator, that's the creator of the setting saying in his own voice.
And that is why Mystra has limitations on her power, in the form of Chosen and Weave anchors and such. She has to hand off some of her power to be at a comparable power level to other deities.
As for her repeated deaths, that's bad writing -- the same bad writing that gives Cyric the plot armor you referenced. The problem is that WotC and TSR both backed themselves into a corner by insisting the spotlight stay on the Chosen. The easiest fix for them -- honestly, the only thing they knew how to do -- was go Hollywood yet again and blow everything up.
If it had been me, I would have had Elminster appear to die in a blaze of glory, somewhere, never to be seen again, followed by a period in which Mystra and her servants kept a low profile, apparently mourning him... And then some evil wizard's plans would go awry, and he'd hear a familiar chuckle and catch a whiff of pipesmoke... Put Elminster back on the low profile Ed originally intended.
The biggest issue is that WotC has become increasingly risk-averse, forgetting that every single successful character of the Realms was once new. Rather than take a chance on creating new characters, they keep going back to the same well over and over and over again, over-saturating the fiction by continuously focusing on Chosen, or Shades, or drow, or some combination thereof. The issue is not and never has been any of those characters -- it's been the company refusing to let us see anyone else. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2020 : 15:44:47
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| It would seem that we have drifted quite a bit away from the supposed topic. I can see that is my fault and I would like to apologize to everyone and especially to Seethyr. To get us back on track, I did some searches of the stuff I have and I didn't find anything mentioning birth magic. It would seem to be something that RAS came up with or he got it from confidential material from Ed. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2020 : 16:23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
It would seem that we have drifted quite a bit away from the supposed topic. I can see that is my fault and I would like to apologize to everyone and especially to Seethyr. To get us back on track, I did some searches of the stuff I have and I didn't find anything mentioning birth magic. It would seem to be something that RAS came up with or he got it from confidential material from Ed.
No worries! This has been an interesting read and debate. I’m just bummed there are no other instances.
I hope if they ever do something for epic level play, it is taken into consideration as a method for non epic level characters to enact a one time epic level feat of magic.
Of course the bards would suddenly become OP |
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Birth Magic
