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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

If you follow George Krashos' lore (and I do) on spellweavers then they most certainly did not use the weave originally (they created it). However after 30000 years the spellweavers have fallen far from their empire glory days and probably use the weave like everyone else.

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

So they made spellweavers one of the founding races now too? Why can't people just leave well enough alone?

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

So they made spellweavers one of the founding races now too? Why can't people just leave well enough alone?

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

So they made spellweavers one of the founding races now too? Why can't people just leave well enough alone?

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Rune magic, used by the dwarves, may also circumvent the Weave, but again I'm unsure.

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Many types of magic—rune magic, shadow magic (not to be confused with the Shadow Weave), gem magic, elemental magic,
even the elven high magic of old—have been spoken of down the years, but these are all merely different processes or paths to the same mastery of natural energies. This endless, ever-shifting web of forces is known as the Weave. Humans refer to the entity or awareness that is bound to the Weave of Toril as Mystra, and worship her as their goddess of magic.

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Arcanamach,

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Rune magic, used by the dwarves, may also circumvent the Weave, but again I'm unsure.

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I found some good information in the FRCS, 3rd edition, on page 56:

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Many types of magic—rune magic, shadow magic (not to be confused with the Shadow Weave), gem magic, elemental magic,
even the elven high magic of old—have been spoken of down the years, but these are all merely different processes or paths to the same mastery of natural energies. This endless, ever-shifting web of forces is known as the Weave. Humans refer to the entity or awareness that is bound to the Weave of Toril as Mystra, and worship her as their goddess of magic.

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I think that settles it. The acknowledgement in differentiating the Shadow Weave from the regular Weave, and then going on to demonstrate that different forms of magic (as identified) are merely "different processes", lays out the fact that it all leads to "the same mastery of natural energies."

Best regards,

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

[quote]That really doesn't make sense for rune magic. Rune magic was given to the giants by Modrons. Since The Weave is limited to Toril, Modrons would use magic that was not dependent on The Weave because they would also intact with Oerth and the other non-FR primes and their magic would have to work there as is.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

[quote]That really doesn't make sense for rune magic. Rune magic was given to the giants by Modrons. Since The Weave is limited to Toril, Modrons would use magic that was not dependent on The Weave because they would also intact with Oerth and the other non-FR primes and their magic would have to work there as is.

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-Extraplanar/otherworldly magics seem to just "default" to the Weave, as magicians from elsewhere are able to come to Realmspace and continue practicing magic with no troubles despite continuing to use the magical traditions from where they are from. Likewise, magicians from Realmspace go to other words and are able to continue using magic without a hitch, meaning that Realmsian magical traditions that utilize the Weave default to whatever laws of magic/physics are in those places.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

[quote]That really doesn't make sense for rune magic. Rune magic was given to the giants by Modrons. Since The Weave is limited to Toril, Modrons would use magic that was not dependent on The Weave because they would also intact with Oerth and the other non-FR primes and their magic would have to work there as is.

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-Extraplanar/otherworldly magics seem to just "default" to the Weave, as magicians from elsewhere are able to come to Realmspace and continue practicing magic with no troubles despite continuing to use the magical traditions from where they are from. Likewise, magicians from Realmspace go to other words and are able to continue using magic without a hitch, meaning that Realmsian magical traditions that utilize the Weave default to whatever laws of magic/physics are in those places.

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Which is why I think of it as more of a power grid, rather than anything else.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Some might view spellcasting kind of like a computer program with certain "default directories" chosen at their core. In the absence of a certain command being available in the directory structure you are working from, the "program" being called upon by the spellcaster goes and checks the "default directories" for a similarly named command. If it finds it, it uses it. Thus, if someone were working in "the weave" directory, and they cast fireball, and there's a fireball command in the weave directory, they use that one. If they go somewhere else, "the weave" directory is unavailable, so they default to the "default directories". Doing this allows certain spells to be cast easier or with different results using the weave. At times, Mystra does something to remove "the default directories" from the search list.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Some might view spellcasting kind of like a computer program with certain "default directories" chosen at their core. In the absence of a certain command being available in the directory structure you are working from, the "program" being called upon by the spellcaster goes and checks the "default directories" for a similarly named command. If it finds it, it uses it. Thus, if someone were working in "the weave" directory, and they cast fireball, and there's a fireball command in the weave directory, they use that one. If they go somewhere else, "the weave" directory is unavailable, so they default to the "default directories". Doing this allows certain spells to be cast easier or with different results using the weave. At times, Mystra does something to remove "the default directories" from the search list.

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I guess that makes the Spellplague a BSOD. That seems appropriate.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Some might view spellcasting kind of like a computer program with certain "default directories" chosen at their core. In the absence of a certain command being available in the directory structure you are working from, the "program" being called upon by the spellcaster goes and checks the "default directories" for a similarly named command. If it finds it, it uses it. Thus, if someone were working in "the weave" directory, and they cast fireball, and there's a fireball command in the weave directory, they use that one. If they go somewhere else, "the weave" directory is unavailable, so they default to the "default directories". Doing this allows certain spells to be cast easier or with different results using the weave. At times, Mystra does something to remove "the default directories" from the search list.

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I guess that makes the Spellplague a BSOD. That seems appropriate.

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Error 404 - Spell not found

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Which is why I think of it as more of a power grid, rather than anything else.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Which is why I think of it as more of a power grid, rather than anything else.

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-Same, that's why I find the concept of magic not utilizing the Weave (or Shadow Weave) so problematic.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Which is why I think of it as more of a power grid, rather than anything else.

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-Same, that's why I find the concept of magic not utilizing the Weave (or Shadow Weave) so problematic.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Which is why I think of it as more of a power grid, rather than anything else.

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-Same, that's why I find the concept of magic not utilizing the Weave (or Shadow Weave) so problematic.

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If the Weave is a power grid, the Shadow Weave is a bunch of old extension cords plugged in at odd places -- still capable of providing power, and even able to reach places the grid doesn't, but those cables just can't carry as much power.

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I think that settles it. The acknowledgement in differentiating the Shadow Weave from the regular Weave, and then going on to demonstrate that different forms of magic (as identified) are merely "different processes", lays out the fact that it all leads to "the same mastery of natural energies."

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That really doesn't make sense for rune magic. Rune magic was given to the giants by Modrons. Since The Weave is limited to Toril, Modrons would use magic that was not dependent on The Weave because they would also intact with Oerth and the other non-FR primes and their magic would have to work there as is.

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Looking for any lore and rules on magic that does not access the Weave.

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...use magic that was not dependent on the Weave...

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Given the list of magic in the 3e FRCS that is specified to use the Weave, it may be reasonable to think that any type of magic not listed, such as blood magic, does not use the Weave.

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@AenastF

If Mystra limited the way The Weave can be used (Mystra's Ban on magic), theoretically, could some Sorcerer (or some other specific spellcaster) that do not rely on The Weave as their source of magic, cast higher than 9th lvl spells as they don't Weave?


@TheEdVerse

Yes and no.
In theory, a spellcaster that doesn’t use the Weave to work magic could elude Mystra’s Ban, BUT we wouldn’t know the ‘level’ of their spells, because arcane spells (ranked in levels) use the Weave.
#Realmslore

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No, what Ed said was:

"the Weave is the predominant and "most correct" (and thus, most powerful) means of harnessing natural energies: in other words, it is magic but it's not the ONLY magic (as evidenced by the Shadow Weave and other, less-powerful alternatives to the Weave: table magic, pluma magic, etc.)."

That isn't hard to understand and doesn't leave room for your view.

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Mortals cannot directly shape raw magic. Instead, most who wield magic make use of the Weave. The Weave is the manifestation of raw magic, a kind of interface between the will of a spellcaster and the stuff of raw magic.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.55)

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After reading the avatar crisis recently, myrkuls super epic rituals never seemed to fail and it was clear he was using the power of souls to perform these magics. Seems to me that incarnum (soul magic) does not use the weave, and there are places where souls gather that they can break through a weak point in the planes to travel to the outer planes.

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Open any three books describing the magic and mage lore of Faerun, and you're apt to find three conflicting accounts of the origins and true nature of magic.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.56)

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Hear now the truth of things, as best it is understood. To speak simply, all known worlds and planes swarm with ever-present energies. Large and small, free-flowing or bound by physical barriers or magical effects (themselves merely energies shaped and designed to restrict or hold other energies); these surges and dissipations of energy give light and life and movement to everything. They are the stuff of life itself, and they would be present even if all living and once-living things on Toril were stripped away to bare rocks.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.56)

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What some folk refer to as magic and wizards speak of as the Art is the means by which some beings can call on the ever-present energies and wield them to create effects.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.56)

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Many types of magic—rune magic, shadow magic (not to be confused with the Shadow Weave), gem magic, elemental magic, even the elven high magic of old—have been spoken of down the years, but these are all merely different processes or paths to the same mastery of natural energies.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.56)

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She miscalculated. The Weave collapsed so completely that Shar not only failed to gather up its fraying threads, she also lost control over the Shadow Weave.(4th Ed. FRCG, pg.50)

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If the Weave is a loose mesh permeating reality, the Shadow Weave is the pattern formed by the negative space between the Weave's strands.(3rd Ed. FRCS, pg.58)

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the Weave is the predominant and "most correct" (and thus, most powerful) means of harnessing natural energies: in other words, it is magic but it's not the ONLY magic (as evidenced by the Shadow Weave and other, less-powerful alternatives to the Weave: table magic, pluma magic, etc.).(So Saith Ed, Jul - Sep 2005)

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First and foremost, all gamers should remember that none of the information about the gods of the Realms can truly be trusted: it's a collection of what mortals imperfectly understand and can visualize (muddied by the 'pet theories' of many sages and priests, both current and down the centuries) about divine beings who may or may not impart accurate information to their worshippers (as the power of deities is related to the number and strength of their worshippers, it's best to think of deities as somewhat akin to used-car salesmen in the real world, presenting everything to make themselves look good or at least vitally necessary and as important as possible). So arguments about specifics of the gods (as opposed to their mortal churches and faithful) are essentially futile, because none of the data those arguing use can be trusted. Priests of Mystra often say that "Mystra IS the Weave." The priests are correct: Mystra is the Weave, and if there was another deity controlling magic, whatever precise system of harnessing natural energies (whether it was called the Weave or not) would be (at the least) subtly different from the Weave as Faerûnians know it today.

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The two forms of magic are the characteristic powers of Maztica. Although very different from each other, each has its roots in the natural aspects of the True World things of light and life and air, in the case of pluma: things of sharpness and scale and venom, for hishna.(Maztica Campaign Set, pg.71)

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Spells of pluma and hishna interact with other AD&D® game powers just as does normal magic.(Maztica Campaign Set, pg.73)

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1) Yes. Blood magic (censored out of the published Realms due to TSR's fears that there'd be gory real-world experiments, and lawsuits), candle magic, table magic, and more. I deliberately wanted magic to be so vast and varied that even "rules-lawyer" players...#Realmslore 2) ..couldn't remember it all at the gaming table, which would lead to a better roleplaying experience, as opposed to metagaming. (Memorizing spell details, limits of magic, and so on, to "beat" the DM and "win" the game. There was too much of that in early D&D play.) #Realmslore (@TheEdVerse, March 9th, 2020, https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1237215843815165957" target="_blank">https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FQaiwCP4OtIJ:https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1237215843815165957 &cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

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Also, I left out other quotations of material from page 55 of the 3rd Ed. FRCS as the implication about casting/using spells it that someone is choosing to use the Weave for that, and I want to provide credence to the argument that other forms of magic exist apart from the Weave, to fully explore this hypothesis.

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