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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 18:13:03
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Looking for any lore and rules on magic that does not access the Weave. Other than Ed's general statements that place magic, table magic, blood magic, etc. exists, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of concrete lore available or how such systems work rules-wise.
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I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 18:15:30
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| Oh, also looking for anything to do with those Ed terms 'weavemasters' (those who can access the Weave and cast spells without components and other benefits of their knowledge). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 19:39:32
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Ed did a little paragraph description of Weavemasters in one of the old scrolls, long time ago.
As for non-weave magic. I'd say there is none, other than the Shadow Weave. All the other ones you mention are just alternate methods of tapping into the weave. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 20:02:27
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I have come up with this for Blood Magic. This is still a bit in flux. I am currently undecided whether or not a blood mage should get an enhanced effect with Necromancy spells. Burning through hps just to cast spell is pretty expense but not having to worry about spell components is a pretty big advantage so giving more than just that may be detrimental to game balance.
The most basic question is what IS blood magic? Well, to put it in terms that a standard mage from Toril would understand, blood magic is a means to control the ambient forces and energies of the world similarly to The Weave or Shadow Weave (some have likened it to an insulating lubricant that prevents The Weave and The Shadow Weave from directly affecting the other). In other words, blood magic is not just another magic school like Necromancy but is instead a completely different method of accessing magic that does not involve The Weave. That means that any spell effect that can be done via The Weave can be done with blood magic. A blood mage can, providing they have the proper spells, shoot magic missiles, summon monsters, create illusions, or perform any other action a Weave-based arcane caster can do.
Since blood magic does not utilize the Weave to achieve its affects, there are some basic yet important differences between the two. First of which, Mystra has no control over blood magic. While she could use The Weave to counter a blood mage’s spell’s effect, she could not prevent the spell from being cast in the first place by severing the blood mage’s access to magic. Secondly, dead magic and wild magic zones have no effect on blood magic since they are distortions in the Weave.
There are also similarities between a standard mage and a blood mage. Magic for both is considered arcane magic. They both cast spells to achieve their goals (but those spells are different on a very basic level so a blood mage could not use a Weave-based spell or vice versa; if a blood mage were to get hold of the spellbook of a Weave-based mage, it would be useless to him). The affects created by each mage’s spells are identical so that there is no difference between a Weave-based fireball and a blood magic-based one (i.e. if either one casts an anti-magic shell spell, the other’s spells are not going to get through it).
There is one very profound difference between the two systems in what it costs the mage to cast their spells: a blood mage must use blood as the component for his spells. Spells of levels 1st through 4th have only a minor cost in blood (1 hp). Spells of levels 5th through 8th have a higher cost (2 hps). The highest cost, naturally, is for the highest level spells (3 hps; if there are spells above level 9, each additional spell level costs another hit point so a 10th level spell would cost 4 hps; it is up to the DM if they want to allow spells higher than level 9). If the blood mage doesn’t want to use his own blood, he must be able to touch an open, bleeding wound on another being to have them pay the cost (unwilling beings get a save vs magic to resist). The blood used must be “living” blood and not blood kept in a container for any longer than 1 turn. Cooling the blood will make it last longer as long as it isn’t frozen (the amount of time doubles for each 10 degrees the blood is kept below 70 degrees to a maximum of 8 turns). Any magic used in an attempt to preserve the blood immediately renders the blood useless as a component in blood magic.
For most spells, blood is the only component needed unless there is some other item relevant to the spell’s effects. A gem for an imprisonment spell is an example. Another is the small chest for a Leomund’s secret chest spell.
I also have this book as a way for a blood mage to level up:
Sanguine Tome, The: The only known source for these books is the god Kanchelsis. As the god of blood magic, he produces and gives these out to those that seek to learn blood magic. In this manner, he spreads the use of blood magic.
The book about about 9 in by 7 in by 2 in and is covered in a blood read leather with corner protectors made out of an amber metal. Inside, there will always be 100 pages of a thin amber metal with red script (both the pages and the corner protectors are made of the metal zardasik). Anyone may read the script but only a blood mage will understand it.
For a blood mage, these books act like the nether scrolls in that while it may have only 100 page, you can start over with the book and it will contain different information. Any blood mage may use this book instead of having a trainer for increasing their knowledge and skill with blood magic.
Because of the zardazik, the book can be hidden within a person’s body without harm to the book or the individual. The book will be undetectable by any means while inside a body. To retrieve the book, the person would only need to put their hand where it was inserted and will it to come back out. If the person dies, the book will spontaneously emerge one hour after the bearer has died. If the book is about to be permanently lost or destroyed, Kanchelsis will take it back.
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"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 19 Aug 2020 20:04:03 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 20:32:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Ed did a little paragraph description of Weavemasters in one of the old scrolls, long time ago.
As for non-weave magic. I'd say there is none, other than the Shadow Weave. All the other ones you mention are just alternate methods of tapping into the weave.
In one of the So Sayeth Ed articles, Ed mentioned the other magics and it implied they do not utilize the weave. That is what got me looking into it.
I am thinking that there is an overall structure similar to what we have for the fundamental forces: gravity, electromagnetism, strong nuclear, weak nuclear. In the Realms, you have the Weave, the Shadow Weave, Blood Magic, and maybe Rune Magic. If I go that way, Blood Magic will need to change to divine magic. That way, we will have 2 arcane magic sources (Weave/Shadow Weave) and 2 divine magic sources (Blood/Rune magic). |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 20:59:12
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I have not seen rules on Rune magic that could help your search.
I believe there was something on Totem magic in Elves of Evermeet.
There is a a reference to Runic magic described in HR1, Vikings Campaign Sourcebook.
I have not seen anything on Name magic and nothing the unnamed Magic that Ed has mentioned. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 21:05:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I have not seen rules on Rune magic that could help your search.
I believe there was something on Totem magic in Elves of Evermeet.
There is a a reference to Runic magic described in HR1, Vikings Campaign Sourcebook.
I have not seen anything on Name magic and nothing the unnamed Magic that Ed has mentioned.
There are rules for rune magic in the 2e book Giantcraft. I believe rune magic is also mentioned in one of the 3e books (maybe magic of Faerun but I am not sure.) |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 21:07:28
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@TMM: Not so, actually. In Ed's responses on twitter he states that there are ways to cast spells without accessing the Weave. The Weave is basically the easiest way because it is done through Mystra. He describes the Weave as roads to get you from one point to another. You can still get where you want to go without using those roads, it's just harder and/or longer.
GK mentioned a scene using Table Magic in the novel Starfall (page 280 I believe). I don't have that novel but it does exist in canon. There's also Place Magic which I believe the Witches of Rashemen use, at least some times, and they may even use Spirit Magic (in which a spirit acts as a conduit for the spell you cast but I'm unsure).
The elves use gem magic but I always assumed that accessed the Weave. Perhaps it doesn't.
Rune magic, used by the dwarves, may also circumvent the Weave, but again I'm unsure.
Ritual magic might also circumvent the Weave since it's much slower (akin to traveling in the 'wilds' rather than on roads to get where you want).
What about burning off a creature's life force to power your magic? I would think that 'soulcasting' wouldn't access the Weave either. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 21:18:06
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| In theory, incarnum may not access the weave, as its a magic that involves the energy of spirits. We've seen psionics shown in both ways in the past, so in theory there's possibly a way to sue solely internal resources for it. The idea of epic magic can also be theorized as "outside of using the weave", as the weave is meant to basically make things simpler, and epic magic is kind of like using assembly language to accomplish a task. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 22:50:11
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| It's not Realms-specific, but Kobold Press has its own version of rune magic. It's detailed in both the original, Pathfinder Deep Magic and the newer 5E version, and I believe in the Midgard Worldbook as well. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2020 : 01:57:20
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| -Canon developments post 4e aside (since I don't know anything about them), I always disliked the concept that there were magics that did not use the Weave. "Non-traditional" forms of magic? Appreciate magical traditions, but the Weave was still being used by them. It basically always presented as the...thing necessary for mortals to interact with "raw magic", because it "raw magic" was just too powerful a force and would destroy mortal creatures. The Weave was like the necessary mediary (or Shadow Weave technically, too). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2020 : 03:51:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Canon developments post 4e aside (since I don't know anything about them), I always disliked the concept that there were magics that did not use the Weave. "Non-traditional" forms of magic? Appreciate magical traditions, but the Weave was still being used by them. It basically always presented as the...thing necessary for mortals to interact with "raw magic", because it "raw magic" was just too powerful a force and would destroy mortal creatures. The Weave was like the necessary mediary (or Shadow Weave technically, too).
You could just say that these other forms of magic do the same thing -- they act as a protective interface between the user and raw magic. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2020 : 08:10:32
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My point is that there is no reason to believe that any of those type of magic are not using the Weave. You are free to think so if you want, but that is conjecture and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. You use a rune to get a magic effect. It works. Does it matter whether that rune acts to bypass the weave or to tap into it? Nope. The same applies to every other form mentioned.
As for soul/life draining, I would say this: it is well established that magic/life are the same in the realms; Making of a Mage spent chapters on this concept... in these cases the magic user casts a spell, and uses the weave to tap into the magic power of the life energy / soul. Just my thought process.
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2020 : 12:02:25
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Just one question: after each of three different goddesses of magic suicide'd/died/exploded, what magic continued to work like normal prior to the ascension of the next goddess?
I read up on the other magic created by Ed Greenwood - but his explanation for creating them was largely to confound "book-peeking players" that were trying to rules-lawyer or cheat with a dose of invoking the wondrous mystique of his world. Why would & should these types of magic fall outside of Mystra's control when all other racial magic is so tightly tethered to the Weave and even Shar's creation of the Shadow Weave completely collapsed when the Weave went *poof* with the death of Mystra III? It seems like the more stuff gets written for the FR the more contradictory the compiled canon material becomes. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2020 : 12:18:48
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Just one question: after each of three different goddesses of magic suicide'd/died/exploded, what magic continued to work like normal prior to the ascension of the next goddess?
I read up on the other magic created by Ed Greenwood - but his explanation for creating them was largely to confound "book-peeking players" that were trying to rules-lawyer or cheat with a dose of invoking the wondrous mystique of his world. Why would & should these types of magic fall outside of Mystra's control when all other racial magic is so tightly tethered to the Weave and even Shar's creation of the Shadow Weave completely collapsed when the Weave went *poof* with the death of Mystra III? It seems like the more stuff gets written for the FR the more contradictory the compiled canon material becomes.
The Shadow Weave was tied to the Weave, so of course removing the Weave from the equation would cause the Shadow Weave to collapse. There's no contradiction there at all. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2020 : 14:28:31
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Well, Ed wrote that to "keep players guessing" and I would say it is working great, even now. 
To the point, I have seen nothing canon that actually says anything about this and when I asked Ed on Twitter about it, he never answered. So anyone's guess is as good as the next. The way I see it is that it could fall two ways: magic x stayed functional because it's stability isn't tied to the weaave or it went down because, while it isn't a part of the weave, it's structure depends on the weave being there. The glaring hole in the weave "idea" from my understanding is what happens when a mage from Toril goes to Oerth or Eberron? If he can only access magic via the weave, he is completely powerless in those settings. Now, mages from those settings may be just fine since their spells are written without the weave in mind and just directly access the ambient forces as needed.
Hmm, based on what I just wrote, I may have to rethink Blood Magic's incorporation into the weave mythology as a "lubricant". The ulitmate source for rune magic is that it was won from a Modron. Since the outer planes connects to all prime planes, their form of magic would operate outside of the weave because it would have to work on all prime planes (at least the ones that have a high enough level of magic). I would image that if Blood Magic also comes from outside the Torillian crystal sphere, it would also not need the weave to operate or be stable. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2020 : 15:25:36
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| Iriaeban you actually hit on why I'm asking about these other forms of magic. I'm running a campaign that is going to tie into the Avatar Crisis (although it won't actually be that crisis, it will be something much much worse). Point is, magic will still be going wild during this time and I would like other forms of magic to still function and/or at least be more reliable than accessing the Weave during this time. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2020 : 16:13:32
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| I think that is your answer: any magic whose knowledge of originated outside of the Torillian crystal sphere would operate normally during that time. It would just be up to you, beyond the already known rune magic, which of those types of magic came from outside the Realms. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2020 : 20:11:36
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Just one question: after each of three different goddesses of magic suicide'd/died/exploded, what magic continued to work like normal prior to the ascension of the next goddess?
I read up on the other magic created by Ed Greenwood - but his explanation for creating them was largely to confound "book-peeking players" that were trying to rules-lawyer or cheat with a dose of invoking the wondrous mystique of his world. Why would & should these types of magic fall outside of Mystra's control when all other racial magic is so tightly tethered to the Weave and even Shar's creation of the Shadow Weave completely collapsed when the Weave went *poof* with the death of Mystra III? It seems like the more stuff gets written for the FR the more contradictory the compiled canon material becomes.
The changes were done to explain changes in game rules, and with each edition the rules for everything change. Now, most of us go with a "story" that for instance, magic prior to the ToT and after it are basically the same, instead of say making characters have one character sheet in 1st edition and then later 2nd edition if we wanted to play through the ToT (or in the case of 5e, it would simply be using 5e rules before and after the ToT). For instance, when 3.5 came out, I ran a campaign in the bloodstone lands that ran from before the ToT and through to a few years after it. The whole time I used 3.5 rules, and the ToT itself was only a few months, so from the character's perspective I think there were only a game or two that encompassed the time frame. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Aug 2020 20:13:28 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 02:48:45
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What, no... ah! I failed to articulate the question. My mistake.
The magic as it has been practiced in the FR world has an existence that is partly-to-mostly unrelated to the mechanical systems that have been forced onto the setting. Nowhere in the materials I have been exposed to did it say that all wizards everywhere had to throw out their books as being useless after every goddess of magic died, and stories/adventures still enjoyed the wonder of finding magical thingamajigs of bygone eras even though the magic regimes in place would have been incompatible with the current rule sets. Spell repositories from Netheril's height of power prior to the fall are still coveted troves by those seeking new & more powerful magic and elven high magic rituals remain unchanged & recognizable in their current state to the archmages of the pre-Crown Wars elven kingdoms. The magic has a place in the setting that has been woven into the crazy-quilt of its history regardless of what the rules say of how it is to be simulated for gameplay.
quote:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Magic
Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms has a few short paragraphs on spellsong and says that the mightiest spellsingers can achieve the spellcasting of a mid-level wizard or sorcerer. At the very end of the book he mentions "plume magic", "table magic", "truename magic", and "wild magic" as a few of the types of magic known to ancient cultures.
There is so much effort on the part of the writers to invoke the immortality, power, omniscience, and intelligence of many creatures & entities of the setting that seems to go to waste whenever something new that is "KEWL" is added which kicks the legs out from under those creatures & entities. At places where the Weave is broken leaving a dead zone, even supernaturally charged beings are nerfed. So, why is it that there are magic practices... mortal magic practices, that are outside of the control of the goddess of magic that are overlooked by just about everyone else? Why is it that Myrkul was so much more resourceful & clever than any of the other gods with pretensions on magic (Baravar Cloakshadow, Thautam, Corellon Larethian, Kirith Sotheril, Sarula Iliene, Alathrien Druanna, Darahl Firecloak, Kereska, Kiaransalee, Malyk, Thoth, Isis, Set, and far more then I can quickly look up) in finding a power source outside of subservience to the very kill-able human goddess of magic? Why would extra-planar fiends play by the rules in the FR when they don't have to do so anywhere else in which they travel?
Bah, forget it. This is no longer even a question at this point as it is a lament of too many cooks spoiling the broth.
Might as well add spirit magic to that list from out of "The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier" since its description invokes animals, natural forces, and ancestors to create spell-like effects. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 04:07:17
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Think of magic as the US transportation system. Roads, Railroads, Airplanes, etc. Think of the Weave as the Interstate system, put in place to make traveling the transportation system easier.
When the interstate system is not working, that does not mean that the whole system fails. The other roads and railroads, etc. are still in place and working under it all. Things just move slower. THAT is what happened with the spellplague. The magic still worked, wizards just needed to learn the new routes between A and B. The shortcut was blocked. The system that exerts order and control and simplicity was having a glitch - that's it.
A similar thing happened when Karsus messed everything up back in the day. In his bid to control magic, he messed up the system and it was falling apart. As a result Mystril sacrificed herself, became Mystra, and filled in all to potholes that Karsus had made. She then imposed a speed limit on the interstate to prevent its abuse.
All pretty simple.
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 13:33:46
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I know you are trying to help, but that is not a good analogy because the transition from interstate to any other road is seemless and requires no change in skill sets, equipment, or operations since the systems are fully integrated. And the other transportation systems of rail, air, & waterway are completely independent but still functioning at or near capacity for the civilization largely because of the advantages they offer versus the more inefficient personally owned vehicles blanketing most of our roadways. We can almost chart on a rising slope of increasing intelligence directly correlating to increasing Weave use such that those of average human intelligence or less have minimal to no interaction with the Weave, which further eliminates any analogies to the road (c'mon, how many idiots have you seen on the road?).
I am not having trouble understanding what happened. I am having trouble understanding why hyper-intelligent, long-lived, nearly all knowing beings losing all of their magical power as soon as they get caught in a damaged Weave dead zone or getting thrown off their game because of a Weave fluctuation if there are alternative magic sources available. The analogy is a warrior kitting themselves for combat and taking only one weapon. The real world does not bear that out as soldiers from antiquity to the modern day girded themselves with multiple weapons to take advantage of a variety of situations and having fall back weapons when their primary offensive tool is nullified (Roman Hastati: pilum/javelin, plumbata/war dart, gladius/sword; German Landsknechts: pike/pole arm, katzbalger/sword, misericorde/dagger; Polish Hussars: long lance, koncerz/thrusting sword, saber/slashing sword, 2-6 pistols, and optional weapons from arquebus to warhammers; and Modern Rifleman: semi-auto or automatic rifle, hand-grenade or grenade launcher, pistol, combat knife, and supplemented by man-portable heavy weapons). Why would fiends like rakshasas, fey like hamadryads, aberrations like phaerimms, and countless other highly intelligent creatures that rely primarily on magic for offense & defense have only Weave-based magic if there are other forms that can work where the Weave does not?
Why would things that require constant magical effects (i.e., flying ships/enclaves) not have redundancy systems of non-Weave effects to provide a safety effect when the Weave has yet another hiccup. I mean, when the power goes out do all the elevators crash to the ground? When the engines flame out on a jet airliner does it immediately plummet at the ground because all power is lost on the plane? Does the sedan lose both power steering and brakes because the engine stalled while driving? Redundancy is built into all these things because of the dangers presented by the mass, speeds, and heights of each with a history that refines each one with every new incident.
It was one thing when there was only the Weave and all magic simply did not work where the Weave was not present. Gods and mortals alike were confined by this simple fact, and the only options to deal without was to rely on ordinary & extraordinary abilities when the magic turned off. But Weave-less magic that has been around since the beginning of time, but is not in the back-up arsenal of magical beings, and is not in the wheelhouse of any god or even fought over by multiple gods because it is out of the hands of Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Whatever? The religious, mystical, and practical ramifications of this are manifold since this isn't some new epiphany but something "baked" into the setting from the time of yore.
I hope you see why I do not think of this as simple. I've given too much thought to this. It's far better for me to reject this in my campaign and, like the invisible force bridge of Silverymoon, pretend it doesn't exist. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 16:01:09
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It's likely a combination of things:
The Weave is far more efficient -- stronger, faster, capable of a wider range of effects -- than non-Weave methods
Non-Weave casting is relatively unknown, while Weave casting is very widely known
Aside from components, Weave casting usually doesn't require other special preparations, like being in a specific place or having the right kind of table or whatnot.
Lastly, the Weave is very reliable -- you paint it as this unstable thing that would require backup methods, but we know of exactly 4 times over thousands of years that the Weave has failed: -339, 1357ish, 1385, and during the Dawn Cataclysm. We don't know when the DC happened, but given that it happened during the time of Mystryl and isn't recorded in Netherese records, it was likely long before them. Leaving that out, we know of three times over more than 1700 years, and one of those occurrences lasted only minutes.
And dead/wild magic areas are a new thing, relatively, only appearing in the last 100ish years, and many of those have dwindled or been removed since the ToT. They also cover only a tiny fraction of the planet -- likely not even 1%.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Aug 2020 16:02:42 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 18:29:09
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SaMoCon
Your question seems to be why didn't the magic-users who figured out A way to do something that no one else ever figured out to do figure out MANY ways to do those things that just happen to all work together. Why did the enclaves fall? Because mythallar are basically big magic transformers that plug into the weave. Their creation is literally the height of magic use by humans in all of history, and you are incredulous that Ioulamm didn't think of a way to duplicate the effect with some less efficient means in case magic - that has always worked - stops working... Sorry, but that is bat-shit crazy.
You also seem to really like blood and gem magic and the like, but you ignore the obvious reason why they are not popular. Blood magic requires a source, and people are not just going to stand there and let you drain them, and if you use your own blood it weakens you. Gems, especially those that are used in magic, are rare (how many 1 carat diamonds do you own? or rubies? or emeralds? - imagine if every time you saved up enough money you just created some momentary magical effect that consumed them... you'd be a pauper).
I think your problem is that you had a bad DM that let you use these things but didn't charge you for them. A good DM makes these costs matter. You want the gems from the treasure we found? Ok, but then we get all the magic items? Don't like that then get your grubby mits off my gems. You want to do what with my blood? Not gonna happen freak. Touch me again and you are battle-fodder.
You're gonna drain yourself? Fine, but you are already the most vulnerable character I've ever seen with your measly 15 hit points... one good whack by anything is going to kill you.
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 11:32:41
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I fully agree that the attributes of convenience & efficiency for the Weave ought to be as you say, Wooly. As for what is "widely known," wizards are the most ardent hunters of esoteric information that may further their understanding of their chosen craft. Even if the creation of magical effects through these non-Weave sources is discordant with their own spell casting, exposure to these other process can inspire unconventional study & experimentation of new spells or even whole new disciplines of magical practice.
As for Weave damage being a recent invention, the reasons for Weave damage to have recently come into existence have existed in the past since colossal magical battles that have reshaped thousands(!) of square miles of landscape and gods being killed in titanic struggles on the surface of the planet are riddled through the FR's history. This was a change the writers created to make the FR more exciting, but no one wanted to spend the time or money to ensure that what was made could be reconciled with the past. This push forward by the companies selling FR products creates cognitive dissonance for me with each new "kewl" thing they add.
As for the Weave being a rock-solid and stable thing, there is this discussion when TBeholder said the Wild Magic areas were "everywhere." While that is part of a larger statement that indicates upwards of 90% of the FR is unaffected by fluctuations on any given day, the possibility exists that this could change for a locality without justification. Further illustrating how frequent these disturbances are is a line from Deity Do's and Don'ts stating Erevan Ilesere worshipers saw Wild Magic tinged with green haze as a good omen. This tells me that these events are unpredictable but frequent enough for a specifically colored event to be a revered but not unique occurrence; moreover, the attention of elvish worshipers over something that can be measured in decades is too brief to be worthy of their notice. If such notions of Weave impermanence were implemented they would be extremely detrimental to PCs whom rely on magic to be viable adventurers and can easily be construed as arbitrary or punitive, which would be more than enough reason to not have it in any but a small sampling of adventure products. A small chance is still a chance - wouldn't you want that "get out of jail free" card in your pocket even though you know it is unlikely you would ever use it?
And, again, there are more than just human wizards involved - I called out fey, and fiends, and aberrations, and gods by example. These are beings of hyper-intelligence that only have their awesome magical powers where the Weave is whole, but not where there is a hole and altered where there is a fray.
Masked Mage, while I am indifferent to blood & gem magic and have never had them in any of my games, I don't see the problem with blood & gem magic for anything other than the players. Plenty of heinous foes have been described as enslaving, kidnapping, murdering villains so such activities as forcing captives to mine for the requisite gems or sacrificing prisoners for a ritual is not just in FR lore but has been a staple of fantasy stories for a hundred years or more. Your also forgetting that every lich was once a living being that killed itself for power. What concerns me is the divorce of alternative magic practices from the Weave and what this epiphany means to the FR.
What I mean by this epiphany is how it changes events. Over 2500 years passed from the first enclave lifting off the ground until Karsus Folly. The enclaves had conflicts with each other and Netheril fought wars against the neighboring non-human realms. In all that time, do you really believe nobody tried to diminish or deprive the human wizards of their magical abilities? Despite several defeats of the netherese humans by their non-human neighbors, is the hubris of the human wizards so pervasive that they wouldn't consider the possibility that their magic might not be infallible? There were enclaves that fell from the sky before Karsus Folly, so why wouldn't anyone have given thought to alternative fail-safe devices that could have saved even a handful of an enclave's inhabitants? Imagine that you are one of these netherese movers-and-shakers and you have awesome cosmic powers but you also know your power can evaporate in an instant if one of many different magic stealing creatures even glances in your direction. What would you be doing differently as an inhabitant of a wind swept enclave flying 500ft off the ground? If all magic were tied to the Weave then there is painfully little that could have been done but the epiphany that there are non-Weave magical means to fly or safely fall should result in a different outcome.
And this is just one thing that would change. Why wouldn't the gods fight over ownership of these alternative magic practices if they fall outside the human goddess of magic's control? How would non-secular relationships be affected for faiths that either disdain or covet these practices? And so on...
As for being "bat-shit crazy" that might just be a residual trait of having worked in engineering, aviation, security, and safety related professions for a combined 30 years and being exposed to all the marvels of safety incorporated into manufacturing & construction of everything from vehicles to buildings. I also have an affinity for history and see how small changes have knock-on effects that ripple throughout the roll of time. It is a combination of these experiences that have caused me to look at everything with the motto "nothing exists inside of a vacuum" in figuring out how it relates to everything else. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2020 : 16:11:07
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Thank you. That gave me the idea of a cult out there somewhere that refuses to use the weave or the shadow weave because "not even the gods are going to tell us how we can use magic". But then, that raises the question of the ban of 10th level spells. Yes, that came from AO but is that for the weave/shadow weave only or does it apply to all types of magic because it is at the raw magic level?
Edit: that made me think of the Spell Weavers. The way they cast spells is definitely outside the norm so it could be that they do not use the weave at all. That cult could be based around something learned from the Spell Weavers. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 23 Aug 2020 16:14:56 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2020 : 17:22:46
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From the Twitter:
@AenastF
If Mystra limited the way The Weave can be used (Mystra's Ban on magic), theoretically, could some Sorcerer (or some other specific spellcaster) that do not rely on The Weave as their source of magic, cast higher than 9th lvl spells as they don't Weave?
@TheEdVerse
Yes and no.
In theory, a spellcaster that doesn’t use the Weave to work magic could elude Mystra’s Ban, BUT we wouldn’t know the ‘level’ of their spells, because arcane spells (ranked in levels) use the Weave.
#Realmslore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Aug 2020 17:23:09 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2020 : 17:47:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
From the Twitter:
@AenastF
If Mystra limited the way The Weave can be used (Mystra's Ban on magic), theoretically, could some Sorcerer (or some other specific spellcaster) that do not rely on The Weave as their source of magic, cast higher than 9th lvl spells as they don't Weave?
@TheEdVerse
Yes and no.
In theory, a spellcaster that doesn’t use the Weave to work magic could elude Mystra’s Ban, BUT we wouldn’t know the ‘level’ of their spells, because arcane spells (ranked in levels) use the Weave.
#Realmslore
Hmm, that is an important point. Rune magic as outlined in Giantcraft didn't have the "spells" separated out by level. There were some that depended on knowledge of a previous one but that was a prerequisite and not a "level".
Well, that cinches it for me. Blood magic would be considered divine AND if I am going to use it for a character, I am really going to have to flesh it out. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2020 : 21:53:08
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Edit: that made me think of the Spell Weavers. The way they cast spells is definitely outside the norm so it could be that they do not use the weave at all. That cult could be based around something learned from the Spell Weavers.
The only unusual thing about how spellweavers cast spells is that they have a brain that lets them compartmentalize and cast multiple spells at the same time. |
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Non-Weave Magic
