Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Realmslore
 Sages of Realmslore
 Novel Lore
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author  Topic Next Topic
Page: of 27

cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2260 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  04:52:05  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattyPlays,

I feel that for sure. The Canticle was indeed difficult to get through; however, once through it, you realize the point of that novel: to set up, in such a perfect manner, the remaining four books in that epic quintet. I loved that quintet so very much by the end! :)

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5936 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  11:01:08  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm currently reading Red Magic which is next in publication order. Not bad so far, no gods doing anything which is also great.

No realmslore surprises yet. Maligor irks me a bit, his claim to be a master strategist and then doing a fairly simple feint attack is not all that genius but I suppose Red Wizards are as arrogant as they are ambitious.

Asp the Spirit Naga is also bothering me I wasnt aware that they had arms, and she has 2.

Tymoras Luck Is a long way away in the publication order list (about 8 RAS novels away). I cant say I'm looking forward to it, I get the feeling that things start to get a bit god stupid after the cyric stuff and his trial.


Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35998 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  16:49:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I'm currently reading Red Magic which is next in publication order. Not bad so far, no gods doing anything which is also great.

No realmslore surprises yet. Maligor irks me a bit, his claim to be a master strategist and then doing a fairly simple feint attack is not all that genius but I suppose Red Wizards are as arrogant as they are ambitious.

Asp the Spirit Naga is also bothering me I wasnt aware that they had arms, and she has 2.

Tymoras Luck Is a long way away in the publication order list (about 8 RAS novels away). I cant say I'm looking forward to it, I get the feeling that things start to get a bit god stupid after the cyric stuff and his trial.





Finder's Bane and Tymora's Luck are really good stories -- but you'll hate them, because the gods are very prominent, and you've already proven that having a god do anything at all ruins a story for you.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5936 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  17:03:12  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the god mentions, such as the Shards being servants of Selune that guard her shrines and temples. Loviatar being worshipped in Thay, a symbol of Malar tattooed on Maligor's head, holy relics of Sune stolen by Zhents of Darkhold. The whole Parched Sea novel is great for immersion, so is Elfsong, and Spellfire, they have mentions of gods but no gods turn up and behave stupidly.


Then we have the scene in Song of the Saurials where Finder goes on a 20 page jaunt through some outer planes (it was so lame i didnt even register which ones he travelled through), turning up in the Abyss in Moander's home plane and basically one shot kills the god. The whole scene adds nothing to the realms (it doesnt even take place on the realms). It adds very little to the outer planes that Finder passes through. It makes the rest of the story seem hokey and the whole scene feels very forced. Darkwell is similarly forced with the end fight scene between Tristran and Bhaal (where he endlessly tries to step on Tristram, just uber lightning bolt him for f***sake), or the last Moonshae novel with the fight where the giant god turns up. Thus far any novel where a god is involved has been of much poorer quality than the non god one, and from a lore point of view there is on average 4 to 10 times more lore in the non god novels.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2676 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  20:49:55  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I feel like that is partly your own bias, since you dislike the gods so much, you're going to harshly judge any story involving them. Also, some of the stories involving gods contain quite a bit of lore.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5936 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  21:24:52  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Possibly true, I enjoyed the first book of the avatar series despite it being god centric.

Did you prefer curse of the azure bonds, wyverns spur or song of the saurials and which ending did you prefer and why.


Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2676 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  21:41:40  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, good question. Wyvern's Spur was a fun story. The saurials took a bit for me to get used to, though I liked Dragonbait as a character. It's been a while since I read them (in fact I tried to refresh my memory when you asked lol). I had completely forgotten about Charon, for example. I liked the epic-ness of Song of the Saurials, though I can't say I was too happy about what happened with a certain mage; it least Moander didn't get him.


Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 13 Sep 2020 21:56:02
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5936 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  21:48:16  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most people seem to say wyverns spur, it is the only book of the series without direct divine intervention and it has the best plot and character development in the series (and in my opinion the larger amount of quality realmslore) and the novels are all written by the same author (important to make a comparison) and it's the middle novel so it's not better because the author had more practice.

People might like the god stuff, but that doesnt mean the god stuff is good for the setting.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2676 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  22:00:42  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doesn't mean they're bad for it, either. They're a big part of the setting, always have been. Wyvern's Spur was a fun read, but you can have both; books that are gods-centric and books that aren't. Not all the books are going to be stellar writing, anyway, regardless of whether they involve deities or not (I find this particularly true for some of the older novels). Personally, I very much enjoy books involving gods, so a lot of this is a matter of opinion. You hate the gods, so you're going to be more likely to dislike books that involve them. Are they always handled well? No, but that doesn't mean they should be removed from every single plot or story. Elaine and Kemp did a good job with them, imho.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 13 Sep 2020 22:01:50
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2260 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  22:27:39  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Dallison,

I really liked that novel. It was the first novel that really exposed Thay to me, and just how awful that nation is with its culture, etc. Of course, it also made it a really great bad guy nation for adventures/campaigns, etc.

I think your evaluation of Maligor is spot on of course, predicated on the ego of the Red Wizards. It is interesting to see the ego displayed by Maligor in that novel too, because it is just four years after the Salamander Wars. Then again, Red Magic was written in 1991 and the Salamander Wars are first referenced in the Unapproachable East. Though, I don't think the ego of Maligor would have changed after the Salamander Wars. There was still a benefit to it all for Thay, it just took Szass Tam and others to square it away so it didn't get insane for Thay.

I also get your issue with deities being overly involved in the Realms. I really think though that Tymora's Luck was perfect for the kind of involvement by the deities that was presented in the novel.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2260 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  22:30:07  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

I agree as to the quality of those two novels. I really enjoyed Finder's Bane as well. I absolutely loved how the adventure made its way to Sigil in that novel. Very cool read for me.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2676 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  22:40:38  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I liked the romp (if you will) through the planes and the stop in Sigil. Sometimes deities getting involved is part of the story, and for me, that's part of the fun. I feel like we can have and enjoy both types of novels (those that have deity involvement and those that are smaller in scale and more contained, like Wyvern's Spur, or the 4e Waterdeep novels, and ones that are in between. Ie, may have something involving deities, like a scene, but isn't centered on them. We can have and enjoy them all).

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 13 Sep 2020 22:43:53
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2260 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  22:42:36  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader CorellonsDevout,

I kind of find myself in the middle between Great Reader Dallison and yourself. I agree that having the gods in there is important because they are a very central aspect to the Realms; however, they really seem to be overly involved at times. It almost robs the story of some mystery when mom and dad are going to show up a lot and put the smack down. I like more deific mystery with much more limited involvement, than not. I think at that point, the few novels that would have significant deity involvement would seem much more intense.

Writing too much about the deities getting super involved just brings them down more to the level of mortals, and that steals some of the mystery and deific might from them because there is more known about them. People are always more afraid of the unknown.

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2676 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  22:51:59  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It can be overdone at times, yes. Part of it depends on how it's done. For example, I personally enjoyed having the gods as characters in the Avatar series, the beginning of Evermeet, and Mask's cameo in the Erevis Cale books. Those were epic, fantastic stories (imho anyway). But Mystra coming for afternoon tea? Yeah, that can be a bit much. At least with the others (even getting inside their heads), there was still some mystery.

I think you can have them as active agents and still maintain some level of mystery. And again, being an active part of the setting means they are going to have some level of involvement (some deities are known for being actively involved, others not as much). Some of this is up to the writers and how they portray the involvement, and some are better at executing that than others. So in some cases, it indeed feels cheap (literal deus ex machina), but others can still manage that "wow" factor.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 13 Sep 2020 22:55:14
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2260 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  22:53:26  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader CorellonsDevout,

So which novel, in your opinion, presents the more lore, pound for pound in it?

Mine would have to be Cormyr: A Novel, off the cuff.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2676 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  22:57:48  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cormyr: A Novel would definitely be one of them. Fully agree. I would also say Evermeet: Island of Elves.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 13 Sep 2020 23:00:12
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2260 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  23:07:16  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader CorellonsDevout,

Good call on Evermeet: Island of Elves.

I really think the Murder novels were really good. I loved Murder in Halruaa. They offered a lot more of the tacit cultural lore by experiencing it by reading, as opposed to an almost historical read from the two we just mentioned.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
226 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  08:14:57  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Having gods floating around allows you to write badly, because then you always have the "Deus ex Machina" copout.
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5936 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  08:16:57  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My thoughts exactly, the gods promote / cause bad plots and bad writing and poor character development.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3644 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  08:39:00  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You can write a story *about* a deity, and give said deity an *actual* arc, and do all that without making a single narrative mistake. It could even come out as an inspiring story, but that has never happened in FR.

The thing is, as we discussed in the thread previously, making a deity directly act in a story about mortals with most of the conflict based on the classic fantasy trope "fight the bad guy" (i.e. all FR novels), is likely going to trivialize it simply because either you make the deity a "deity" (in that you dramatically limit their power) or they oscillate between instawinning, doing nothing for contrived excuses, and making the powers in the game so big that mortals are irrelevant.

The only stories that can involve divine and mortal characters at the same time are those in which the conflict and the stakes are such that the difference in fighting power matters nothing (a random example: stories about convincing people of something/to do something, and where dictating it with power is ruled out either because the deity doesn't want to becuase of how their character is, or because they can't).

The key is keeping meaningful conflict and development, and to not make the protagonists' conflict fade back (like it happens when the characters gotta do something minor while the big powers fight the real battle).

Edited by - Irennan on 14 Sep 2020 08:40:04
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35998 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  15:59:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It all depends on how the gods get involved. I think there are good stories involving gods not just in the Realms but in other fantasy settings, as well.

Gods don't have to directly act to be involved, or their direct actions could be limited to some background thing that impacts the story without providing a direct solution.

Automatically dismissing a story just because a deity has some involvement means you're not giving the story a fair chance.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2260 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  16:53:48  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe ElfBane,

I do believe that is the case with lazy writing for sure. I believe that if an author puts the gods into a novel and pulls it off well, that is the very essence of good writing by avoiding the copout you so correctly cite.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2676 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  17:06:16  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It all depends on how the gods get involved. I think there are good stories involving gods not just in the Realms but in other fantasy settings, as well.

Gods don't have to directly act to be involved, or their direct actions could be limited to some background thing that impacts the story without providing a direct solution.

Automatically dismissing a story just because a deity has some involvement means you're not giving the story a fair chance.



Exactly. I have read a number of good fantasy that involves gods in some way or another. I agree that sometimes their appearance in FR is a little overblown at times (Mystra joining characters for tea), but having a god involved, either directly or indirectly, doesn't automatically make for poor writing. Kemp handled it well in the Cale series, the Avatar series was literally about the gods, and Elaine handled it well at the beginning of Evermeet. The Brimstone Angels handled it well, too.

Sometimes, yes, you have had the literal deus ex machina and poor execution, but having the gods involved doesn't automatically mean a copout, as evidenced by the books I mentioned above. The gods are a part of the Realms, so like it or not, it is inevitable that they are going to be involved, whether directly or indirectly.

And with the "classic" FR novels, some of them did have a more "gamey" feel to them (YMMV), so there is more of a deus ex machina (literal or otherwise) feel at times.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 14 Sep 2020 17:13:29
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2260 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  17:37:57  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader CorellonsDevout,

I get you on that gamey feel to it. I think the reason it was that way back then is that the gaming world was still just very hack n'slash in a pure sense. Though there is still plenty of that around, you definitely have much better writing for storyline development for an actual plot and what not than you did back in the day.

I mean, look at 1st edition modules for god's sakes. lol Simply awful writing. Any plot was as shallow as can be (for the most part, there was the occasional one that shone through) and intended to just put a fight in front of you.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3644 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  20:10:15  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Gods don't have to directly act to be involved, or their direct actions could be limited to some background thing that impacts the story without providing a direct solution.

Automatically dismissing a story just because a deity has some involvement means you're not giving the story a fair chance.



Yeah. If the story is about mortals, the deity can be a catalyst character, and the conflict will still belong to the mortal. A catalyst deity is perfectly acceptable to me--and from a narrative standpoint (i.e. someone who helps the PoV to overcome their fatal flaw--thorugh whichever kind of interactions or events that are relevant to the story). One good example for this in FR fiction is what Elaine Cunnigham does with Eilistraee and Liriel (and the drow in general)--and one of the reasons I really like Eilistraee is that she's set up as an empowerer.

Heck, as I mentioned, you can go even beyind this and have a deity on the forefront, as long as you have an arc that focuses on a deity--and that puts us in the shoes of the deity. That could even be refreshing, because it's rare for someone to try to put themselves in the shoes, responsibilites, emotions, doubts, etc... of a character that occupies such a position. If the topic is exhausted in the novel--if the author actually put themselves in the skin of the deity--some good stuff can come out of it. Of course, in this case, we're basically still talking about human-like characters, not true metaphysical entities who are impossible to understand for humans, because if the PoV character is a deity, not only you must understand them, you must strive to become them in order to write the story. You can't do this with metaphysical entities. It would also put a wrench in the whole point of the narrative--make the reader experiences a series of events *as* someone else, and *empathize* (not merely sympathize) with that someone else.

On the flipside, it also depends on the main obstacles faced in the story. The gist is that, if the obstacle can be overcome through power, and if the story has mortals among the main characters, involving deities as players--even in the background--rather than catalysts, not only causes a risk to trivialize the conflict, but might also make the actions of the mortal characters feel like minor stuff, because the good deity is the one dealing with the real source of the evil power--i.e. the bad deity/demon lord/etc...--while the mortals deal with just their servants. Power balance must be measured carefully in a story, in order to not trivialize or shift the focus of the conflict and its resolution.

For this reason, to me the real problem isn't that Mystra can join someone for tea--that's just fluff (that must be relevant to the story in some way, however, or you need to axe it. Maybe it's one of the ways in which the deity communicates with the character, and so one of the channels through which they can act their role as a catalyst). The problem is likely to appear only when deities are involved in the conflict. If you *really* must have their intervention neat something to the PoV's faction, maybe they will be able to achieve a pyrrhic victory and buy some time at most, but the PoV must be the one to achieve the real victory (as in, they must be the engine that carries it). This isn't easy to pull off, and requires accurate planning.

Edited by - Irennan on 14 Sep 2020 22:58:17
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2260 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  01:46:08  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Irennan,

quote:
On the flipside, it also depends on the main obstacles faced in the story. The gist is that, if the obstacle can be overcome through power, and if the story has mortals among the main characters, involving deities as players--even in the background--rather than catalysts, not only causes a risk to trivialize the conflict, but might also make the actions of the mortal characters feel like minor stuff, because the good deity is the one dealing with the real source of the evil power--i.e. the bad deity/demon lord/etc...--while the mortals deal with just their servants. Power balance must be measured carefully in a story, in order to not trivialize or shift the focus of the conflict and its resolution.


I really liked that element of your argument the most. It really does come down to the ethic that is pushed subtly (or in some cases not so much)through the narrative about the consideration of experiencing something through a character's perceptions, having empathy for it, but I also think, having a way to discern choice. The perception and choice(s) are of course integral, but without a narrative that puts the question to you, and makes you consider what you would do then (perhaps the readers ethic conflicts with the ethic of the character) if you were in said situation, it is much more hollow I feel.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2676 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  02:50:46  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan



Heck, as I mentioned, you can go even beyind this and have a deity on the forefront, as long as you have an arc that focuses on a deity--and that puts us in the shoes of the deity. That could even be refreshing, because it's rare for someone to try to put themselves in the shoes, responsibilites, emotions, doubts, etc... of a character that occupies such a position. If the topic is exhausted in the novel--if the author actually put themselves in the skin of the deity--some good stuff can come out of it. Of course, in this case, we're basically still talking about human-like characters, not true metaphysical entities who are impossible to understand for humans, because if the PoV character is a deity, not only you must understand them, you must strive to become them in order to write the story. You can't do this with metaphysical entities. It would also put a wrench in the whole point of the narrative--make the reader experiences a series of events *as* someone else, and *empathize* (not merely sympathize) with that someone else.


This is one of the reasons I like deity involvement and "deity-as-characters" (main or background), is because it can be refreshing. I, as a mere mortal, don't also want to read about mere mortals lol. But it is true that to have a deity as characters, you do have to bring them down to a "human level" so that readers can understand their actions, at least to some extent. Like the Avatar series (and some books in that series were better than others). Of course, some of the deities, such as Kelemvor and Midnight/Mystra and Cyric, were previously mortal, but others hadn't been, and we got to see god thoughts and concerns brought down to a more human level of understanding. In a way, this is similar to gods manifesting to mortals in the forms of avatars. Gods, as you pointed out, are metaphysical, and thus their "true forms" are likely beyond mortal understanding, as our their actions and thoughts. So the writer has to "dumb down" their thoughts and actions in a way we readers can understand (and the writers themselves, as they are also mortal). This does make the gods seem more human, but it can still be a fun and refreshing story.

quote:
On the flipside, it also depends on the main obstacles faced in the story. The gist is that, if the obstacle can be overcome through power, and if the story has mortals among the main characters, involving deities as players--even in the background--rather than catalysts, not only causes a risk to trivialize the conflict, but might also make the actions of the mortal characters feel like minor stuff, because the good deity is the one dealing with the real source of the evil power--i.e. the bad deity/demon lord/etc...--while the mortals deal with just their servants. Power balance must be measured carefully in a story, in order to not trivialize or shift the focus of the conflict and its resolution.



I can see this, though in all fairness, mortals likely wouldn't be able to fight real big bad--unless you have a super powerful mortal, which, imho, brings the same kind of issue as deity involvement.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3711 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  03:04:27  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Ironically, you would probably like The Priests series. The emphasis in those books was exactly that- the mortal servitors dealing with the machinations and plots of other mortals, with deities being the backdrop to the motives of characters and of course the source of their power.

-Which, I agree.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 15 Sep 2020 03:04:53
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2260 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  06:48:16  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Karsus,

I am going to have to check those out. There are so many novels at this point I haven't read, sometimes I wonder where I should jump back in at! haha This looks like a fantastic place to start. Any order to them, or just go?

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3644 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  14:37:03  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

This is one of the reasons I like deity involvement and "deity-as-characters" (main or background), is because it can be refreshing. I, as a mere mortal, don't also want to read about mere mortals lol. But it is true that to have a deity as characters, you do have to bring them down to a "human level" so that readers can understand their actions, at least to some extent. Like the Avatar series (and some books in that series were better than others). Of course, some of the deities, such as Kelemvor and Midnight/Mystra and Cyric, were previously mortal, but others hadn't been, and we got to see god thoughts and concerns brought down to a more human level of understanding. In a way, this is similar to gods manifesting to mortals in the forms of avatars. Gods, as you pointed out, are metaphysical, and thus their "true forms" are likely beyond mortal understanding, as our their actions and thoughts. So the writer has to "dumb down" their thoughts and actions in a way we readers can understand (and the writers themselves, as they are also mortal). This does make the gods seem more human, but it can still be a fun and refreshing story.


Yeah, but my point was more that you can't have a deity PoV of a novel and a deity as a metaphysical entity. The moment you choose to put a person in the shoes of a deity, you give up on the "mortals can't understand this character" thing, becuase it defeat the very purpose of narrative. As for FR, FR gave up on gods as metaphyisical entities a long time ago, when some people thought it was a good idea to paint deities as 5 yo kids with nukes.

quote:

I can see this, though in all fairness, mortals likely wouldn't be able to fight real big bad--unless you have a super powerful mortal, which, imho, brings the same kind of issue as deity involvement.



And this is why you set up the story so that the big bad can be fought by mortals. Or yet, you move the thematic statement and the conflict of the story to something else. Wars aren't necessarily won through fights--the best victory is the one you obtain without even having to fight.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 27  Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2022 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000